CT Errata Compendium

[McPerth]

Errata: High Guard Medical Crew

According to the consolidated errata under HG2 medical crew = 1/240 crew. This doesn't take any account of passengers

Suggested alteration. 1 per 240 crew and middle passengers, plus 1 per 120 high passengers, plus 1 per 480 low passengers or frozen watch.

I think it would make more sense just for the low passengers to need more medical support than awake ones, as they need more monitoring and (mostly in case of frozen watch) may need to be revived quickly.

My suggestion would be (following your rationale) to need one medical personnel per 240 awake passengers or 60 frozen ones. I'd also put a minimal medical crew of 3 (one per shift) if there is sick bay at all (or at least if there's sick bay for more than, let's say, 2 persons, unless autodocs are used).

RW advising for first aid trained personnel on companies are one first aid worker per 50 ones, with a minimum of 2 (CPR is arduous to try alone, and aside, you cannot discard one of them to be the victim in case of accident).

 

[dean]

I would wonder why? I know there are precedents but...

It's not like high passengers are going to be more often sick or injured while aboard. And they aren't likely to be anticipating having that complicated elective surgery while aboard a starship, they'll be headed to or from the best planetside medical facility they can afford for that. Barring the possible hospital ship scenarios I think a simple ratio is sufficient.

Nor will low passengers need fewer, except that they are in need of none while in the low berths. I could see arguing for not counting them at all. Using the Classic survival roll they don't need any medic except to improve survival. One might argue they need more attention in that case but again I prefer the simpler general rate.

High passage passengers would be more likely to demand more immediate access to medical care; if we are simply thinking that these tend to be the wealthy, they will also generally tend to be older and have greater health care needs.

I agree with the low passage argument of needing no medico.

 

[Matt123]

I question the need for a Medical department to be separately accounted for in the HG crew rules. Pre-errata, the Head of the Medical Department counted amongst the Bridge Crew.

For HG crewed ships there is 2-3 support crew per 1000 ton. At the top end of book 2 designs, thats 10 support crew in a 5000 ton ship (ignoring those dedicated to ship security).

Thats a lot of people employed to doing laundry & swabbing the decks... Surely some of those if needed are medical staff to support the Chief Medic.

Looking at the 1/240 ratio, an Imperial 200kton BB only needs 5 Medical Crew out of its 400 Support Crew. Less the Medical Chief already accounted for in the Bridge Crew. That amounts to 1% of the Support Crew...

Why do we need a separately accounted for Medical Section in HG crew rules?

 

[far-trader]

...Thats a lot of people employed to doing laundry & swabbing the decks...

...and maintenance, repair, cooking, book-keeping, etc. etc.

Why do we need a separately accounted for Medical Section in HG crew rules?

I can offer two reasons off the top of my head:

It was there originally in the first printing (with iirc the same "support" crew ratio, my old HG is not handy at the moment or I'd check). The way second printing reads the only person aboard any ship no matter what size with medical training is the SINGLE command officer.

It is consistent with Book 4 which calculates required medical ratings separately (just as Book 5 originally did). Speaking of which perhaps that could inform better on the level of medical support required for a fighting ship.

I'm convinced the Medical Section 'loss' was an accidental edit in preparing the revised High Guard. Maybe due to space, or typesetting, or time.

 

[Matt123]

I can just as easily see it being deliberately lost/dropped as the numbers are insignificant and easily subsumed in the Service department. In most cases the Chief Medic is the only person required. A quick look at Fighting Ships and its only after you exceed roughly 30 ktons that you need a second Medic, making it a department of 1 headed by the Chief Medic.

Overkill.

But it doesn't impact on gameplay, every player is affected the same and it only involves catering for one or two more crew in most cases, three for many 100-200 kton BB's.

For these reasons I'm not phased either way, I just feel it goes against the big brush strokes of the game to detail such an insignificant department (size wise).

Book 4 is a bit of a red herring, looking quickly at it, you need a medical skill level every 10 troops in a platoon. A 30 man platoon needs Medic-3 (a doctor) or 3 Medic-1's (3 medics). A 50 man platoon needs Medic-5 (a doctor & 2 medics or 5 medics). Plus a company casualty clearing station. A Company of say 200 troops could conceivably have 21 Medical staff. In book 4, it is obvious that Medics are not an "insignificant number".

 

[dean]

I can just as easily see it being deliberately lost/dropped as the numbers are insignificant and easily subsumed in the Service department. In most cases the Chief Medic is the only person required. A quick look at Fighting Ships and its only after you exceed roughly 30 ktons that you need a second Medic, making it a department of 1 headed by the Chief Medic.

Overkill.

But it doesn't impact on gameplay, every player is affected the same and it only involves catering for one or two more crew in most cases, three for many 100-200 kton BB's.

For these reasons I'm not phased either way, I just feel it goes against the big brush strokes of the game to detail such an insignificant department (size wise).

Book 4 is a bit of a red herring, looking quickly at it, you need a medical skill level every 10 troops in a platoon. A 30 man platoon needs Medic-3 (a doctor) or 3 Medic-1's (3 medics). A 50 man platoon needs Medic-5 (a doctor & 2 medics or 5 medics). Plus a company casualty clearing station. A Company of say 200 troops could conceivably have 21 Medical staff. In book 4, it is obvious that Medics are not an "insignificant number".

I'd think it's more reasonable to assume that 1/10 men has medic-1, and probably still fights. Medic-1 training does not make one medical staff.

 

[Matt123]

I'd think it's more reasonable to assume that 1/10 men has medic-1, and probably still fights. Medic-1 training does not make one medical staff.

Good point. And it could well be in HG that various other crew are cross-trained to provide medical staff in emergencies. Service crew with no inherent combat role would be prime candidates to be cross-trained as medics and combat repair teams in emergencies.

 

[McPerth]

Good point. And it could well be in HG that various other crew are cross-trained to provide medical staff in emergencies. Service crew with no inherent combat role would be prime candidates to be cross-trained as medics and combat repair teams in emergencies.

Forgive me to correct you but IMO your last sentence should read:

Service crew with no inherent combat role would be prime candidates to be cross-trained as medics or combat repair teams in emergencies.

I'm not an expert in naval operations (less os in star navy operations), but I have some training in labour security, and it's a known fact you should never train the same person as First Aid Team member and First Intervention Team member, as the same emergency that forces you to activate First Intervention Teams is likely to force you to activate First Aid Teams, and a person may have only one assigned role in emergencies, or he/she will do nothing good in any of his/hers roles.

For what I know about naval operations, most support crew is assigned to some of those roles in general quarters situation (a bartender may be assigned to Damage Control, or to First Aid, depending on his/her training).

Even so, I think medical staff is another thing, as it's personnel specifically on board to treat possible casualities/illnes, with no other roles assigned, as is engineering crew, and both are assumed to take the lead of those First Aid and Damage Control teams in emergencies (or in General Quarters, even if the emergency expected doesn't materialize, or if it's only a drill).

I think, in HG there are some assumptions that can mislead in this sense:

> as crew was given by digit (exponential 10s), small teams made no diference, so could be easily ignored. From the moment the crew is given in small sections (5-15 persons), those small teams may mean a section or two more, so, IMO, they should not be so ignored.

> most crew branches (command, support, etc) are given by ship tonnage, regarless the actual crew they carry. That may be sound in military ships, but once you talk about transports (or freighters), that's not so sound. You'll need the same command or support crew for a 20000 dton military ship, with its full complement of gunners, etc, than for a 20000 dton freighter, that probably whould have a quite smaller crew.

And just for HG congruency, as there is a full medical branch in CharGen, IMO, they should be reflected in the ships' crews...

 

[aramis]

All USN personnel are trained in DamCon and in First Aid; Damage control teams are all trained in first aid, as all naval personnel are. (Or at least were, in the 80's, by regulation.) Likewise, everyone is trained in use of the SCBA and fire suppression systems, how to detect UHP Steam leaks, and how to cap those leaks. Everyone has to be able to function in both roles.

Who is actually assigned to which roles is a different matter (but in case of fire, pretty much everyone is expected to help in some manner if they are in the area).

Fire and leaks kill the whole ship; they are threat number one.

 

[McPerth]

All USN personnel are trained in DamCon and in First Aid; Damage control teams are all trained in first aid, as all naval personnel are. (Or at least were, in the 80's, by regulation.) Likewise, everyone is trained in use of the SCBA and fire suppression systems, how to detect UHP Steam leaks, and how to cap those leaks. Everyone has to be able to function in both roles.

Sure they are, but I guess most are 'specialized' in one or the other fields. Most armed forces personnel are first aid trained (I guess too), but they wouldn't be treated as skill Medical 1, at most as Medical 0 (or even First Aid 0 in the versions that have this skill, like T4).

I guess it is more or less equal in engineering, mechanical or electronics (what I understand as Damage Control parties, maybe other skills).

I agreee in ship threatening emergencies, most personnel would try to help in DC, but surely some of them are assigned to FA teams instead, as all of them working on the same thing at once, while leaving casualities untreated doesn't seem sound to me (of course I may be wrong).

While both tasks would have specialized teams, them may take some minutes to arrive to the emergency zone of the ship (more as the ship is larger), and most personnel must have basic training to fill he gap, but I still believe most unenegaged personnel in combat would be trained mostly in one of the teams, not in all (wich, in skill terms, could mean to have 3-4 extra skills, at least at level 0).

In civilian labour seccurity, most personnel is trained (or should be) for emergencies in only one role, either fire fighting, first aid, evacuation, etc, and they're expected to join one of the teams. I guess in military it should be even more formalized, according to usually thigher regulations, and the training to be directed to those functions, not dispersing the training for every emergency they could meet, reling on organization and discipline to have everyone at his post (I know in practice things may be quite different).

 

[aramis]

Sure they are, but I guess most are 'specialized' in one or the other fields. Most armed forces personnel are first aid trained (I guess too), but they wouldn't be treated as skill Medical 1, at most as Medical 0 (or even First Aid 0 in the versions that have this skill, like T4).

I guess more it is or less equal in engineering, mechanical or electronics (what I understand as Damage Control parties, maybe other skills).

I agreee in ship threatening emergencies, most personnel would try to help in DC, but surely some of them are assigned to FA teams instead, as all of them working on the same thing at once, while leaving casualities untreated doesn't seem sound to me (of course I may be wrong).

While both tasks would have specialized teams, them may take some minutes to arrive to the emergency zone of the ship (more as the ship is larger), and most personnel must have basic training to fill he gap, but I still believe most unenegaged personnel in combat would be trained mostly in one of the teams, not in all (wich, in skill terms, could mean to have 3-4 extra skills, at least at level 0).

In civilian labour seccurity, most personnel is trained (or should be) for emergencies in only one role, either fire fighting, first aid, evacuatin, etc, and they're expected to join one of the teams. I gues in military it should be even more formalized, according to usually thigher regulations, and the training to be directed to those functions, not dispersing the training for every emergency they could meet, reling on organization and discipline to have everyone at his post (I know in practice things may be quite different).

Military and civilian training patterns are NOT congruent.

Damage control parties are not standing duty assignments; they're additional duties for ratings across all fields. Their job is to seal leaking compartments' hatches, cap off and/or shut down leaking steam lines, fight fires, and evac wounded. At least according to the LPM.

I don't see the space naval DCP's being much better... they're the people who can be spared from their combat posts. Often some of the dumbest dudes aboard. (No offense to the average Deck Dept SN/SA/SR, but it is the lowest qual requirements... even cooks are harder to qual for, tho cooks don't require the security clearance for promotion...) It's a function of the jobs involved, too... Painting, scraping, polishing, mopping.

More skilled guys are at their duty stations fighting the ship, unless their duty station has become irrelevant due to damage.

 

[BytePro]

Other than just a count - are there any game mechanics associated with the medical crew on large vessels?

 

[far-trader]

Other than just a count - are there any game mechanics associated with the medical crew on large vessels?

No, but in HG there are no game mechanics for most of the crew on large vessels. Only the commanding Pilot and possible the Captain (Tactics) apply. So that alone doesn't inform much on including medical crew or not.

EDIT: Actually one more, I forgot about Boarding Actions and Ship's Troops.

As Wil notes all crew will be trained in damage control and first-aid. However, that does not make all crew Medics any more than it makes all crew Engineers so again it doesn't really inform on the key question of a Medical section.

 

[Matt123]

Other than just a count - are there any game mechanics associated with the medical crew on large vessels?

Just to add to Dan's reply, there is also the roleplay aspect to consider, in that there is a Medical Department (as observed earlier by someone else).

But as far as resolving HG combat is concerned though, Medical staff play no part. Given a 200kton BB's Service Crew of 400, Aramis's deck swabbing & painting department will be significantly larger than the 4 person Medical Department (plus the Chief Medic) and plays just as little part in resolving HG combat.

 

[McPerth]

But as far as resolving HG combat is concerned though, Medical staff play no part. Given a 200kton BB's Service Crew of 400, Aramis's deck swabbing & painting department will be significantly larger than the 4 person Medical Department (plus the Chief Medic) and plays just as little part in resolving HG combat.

Very few departments (aside from flight, represented by small crafts, mostly fighters) play a real part in HG ship combat rules. Medical department main effect would be in post battle casuality assesment, to see how many losses are dead and how many woulded, and to speed wounded recovery.

The other use Medical staff may have (IMHO) in HG combat could be to awaken frozen watch. The medical staf quality could be used to determine how effective (and quick) this awakening is.

Anyway, the lack of crew quality in HG combat rules is IMHO, one of the several flaws it has (usually, only the tactics skill of the commander and fleet/squadron commander, and the pilot skill is really relevant, the other thousands of crewmembers might as well be raw recruits, as to actual rules effect).

 

[BytePro]

Thanks - just checking that I hadn't forgotten some rule.

From Book 2 & HG, don't recall any medic requirements for anything other than passengers and command staff - meaning the 'medical' crew would just be drawn from the 'service crew'.

So, since medical personnel count is really just fluff - why an 'errata'?

(Another source in error?)

Interesting lines from a quick google: http://www.brooksidepress.org/Produ...ion Medicine/AircraftCarrierBasedMedicine.htm

"Typically a ratio of one physician per 1200 personnel and one corpsman per 150 personnel aboard ship are utilized."

"Damage Control Personnel Qualifications Standardization (PQS) requires a certain level of expertise in first aid on the part of ALL crewmen."

"As a primary care facility, often supporting a population of 10,000 within the entire battle group, an aircraft carrier is frequently utilized as a receiving hospital and as a transferring facility for hospitals ashore."

 

[far-trader]

Thanks - just checking that I hadn't forgotten some rule.

From Book 2 & HG, don't recall any medic requirements for anything other than passengers and command staff - meaning the 'medical' crew would just be drawn from the 'service crew'.

You're welcome for my small part. However I don't think 'service crew' covers competent medical personnel, not by a long shot.

You're correct though, for revised HG. Per the original HG a Medical Section was detailed. Made me hunt down my old original HG My recollection of the Service Crew from the original was in error (and it actually makes more sense, and that too should be adopted imo, in that it will depend on variables of equipment carried as much as simple tonnage).

So, since medical personnel count is really just fluff - why an 'errata'?

One might as easily argue that all crew is fluff and ignore it entirely. HG combat is a fleet action game, separate from RPG aspects of Traveller, and really doesn't factor crew except in the most abstract (and poorly implemented) way.

(Another source in error?)

Not sure I follow. My answer might be along the lines of answering the question though.

Interesting lines from a quick google: http://www.brooksidepress.org/Products/OperationalMedicine/DATA/operationalmed/OperationalSettings/Naval%20Aviation%20Medicine/AircraftCarrierBasedMedicine.htm

"Typically a ratio of one physician per 1200 personnel and one corpsman per 150 personnel aboard ship are utilized."


"Damage Control Personnel Qualifications Standardization (PQS) requires a certain level of expertise in first aid on the part of ALL crewmen."

Very interesting indeed. As it is close to the original HG take. One "physician" (aka Doctor = Medical-3) and one "corpsman" (aka Medical-1+) per 150 personnel aboard. NOT a per tonnage count like the Service Crew section of revised HG.

And "first-aid" in CT is probably Medical-0 and outside the Medical Section, just as damage control teams are outside the Engineering Section and don't require Engineering skill (probably Mech-0 and Elec-0 imo).

Per original HG (c1977) - my notes in { } to clarify:

Medical Section: In addition to the medic {ship's doctor = Medical-3} and nurse {Medical-2 imo} contained in the command section {already we've doubled the number from the revised HG}, the ship should have a sick bay {taken from stateroom/lowberth tonnage per the rules for common spaces} staffed {permanent crew positions} with one medical person (at least medic-1) for each 240 crew persons aboard {including frozen watch imo, and note how close that is to the per 150 persons above}. The medical section should have one officer per three individuals, and one petty officer per three individuals. Personnel are drawn from the medical branch.

Crew {aka Service Crew in revised HG}: The ship itself may have a requirement for any of several sections which provide basic services, including vehicles, shops, security (if there is no marine contingent), maintenance, food service, and other operations {note no mention of damage control, as expected}. Such personnel are drawn from the crew (or from other appropriate branches). {note the lack of numbers assigned, and officer/petty ratios}

 

[BytePro]

Sounds like you might have answered my question

The source of the 'errata' is that it was in the original HG and missing in the later editions?

(Sort of what I meant by my poorly worded 'Another source in error?' - prior editions would fit the bill.)

Yeah, HG combat really never fit well with our RPGing. Crew stat is used in the combat mechanics, so it is not ignorable. Medic is - hence 'fluff'.

The one google source I looked at does seem to jive within reason of the original HG rules - though, I hate to overdo the analogy between seagoing vessels and spaceships, in this regards its probably a good fit.

 

[Matt123]

Crews importance in HG is limited to how much accommodation space is needed in the ship design. Big brush strokes are all that is needed to achieve that aim. The game walks you through the "big" departments and has a "catch-all" for the rest (medics, deck-swabs, cooks, maintenance, etc).

Its the big departments that impact most on crew accommodation needs. Not the addition of an extra half a stateroom per 240 crew.

I read the HG1 snippet & can see exactly why the merged the two and stopped detailing what makes up the departments in the Service Crew. The lack of numbers and petty officer details merely reflects that this is a catchall for a lot of smaller departments.

Frozen Watch would not be woken by Medical Crew in an emergency. In the event the Frozen Watch is needed, they will be rather busy...

@ Bytepro, ta for those figures. Good stuff seeing RL examples.

 

[far-trader]

Crews importance in HG... Big brush strokes are all that is needed to achieve that aim. The game walks you through the "big" departments and has a "catch-all" for the rest (medics, deck-swabs, cooks, maintenance, etc).

Medics are not part of the "catch-all" or equal to deck swabs, cooks or maintenance.

If all we need and are after is big brush strokes I refer you to Book 2:

"Extremely large starships should have at least 10 crew members for each 1000tons of displacement."

Simple, easy, quick, and all we need for HG combat.

(Me? I want a little more for my RPG thank you )

Its the big departments that impact most on crew accommodation needs.

Might as well ignore Command Section by that rationale, it's hardly a big department

I read the HG1 snippet & can see exactly why the merged the two...

I see no evidence that the two were merged. However, can you elucidate on the "exactly why" that you see? Or is it simply the numbers issue?

FWIW, and as suggested evidence that dropping the Medical Section was an oversight and not a purposeful change, also note that MT (collated and collected CT+) has the Medical Section in the crew calculations, almost identical to the original HG.

Frozen Watch would not be woken by Medical Crew in an emergency. In the event the Frozen Watch is needed, they will be rather busy...

I'm not sure who else would be waking the Frozen Watch in the TU. Lowbeths pretty much demand Medic-1 at a minimum. It's automated imo but that's MTU, where the medical care and time is involved in the front end to allow rapid awakening and 100% survival* in time of crisis. The opposite of Emergency Lowberth protocol (with regular lowberth practices being more middle of the road).

* failures are weeded out before the installation is completed, to jive with HG's lack of casulties in FW use

In any case, as noted previously, emergency casualties will see first-aid first from the first responders of the general crew (whoever is on the scene). The Medical Section is there for day to day injuries, illness, etc. and treating cases after triage and transport to the sick bay by said first responders.