[CT Errata] TTB ship designs Review

[far-trader]

Quick summary check on aramis' workups

Type S - spot on I'd say

Type A - ah, you under priced the streamlining by MCr1, the 10tons unused is a typo or adding error, and you didn't notate the lowberths (vol and cost but not what, threw me for a second), otherwise good

Type R - my price total is MCr1.8 more than yours, another typo or adding error, looks ok otherwise

Type M - looks right

Type Y - should be 14 staterooms (which will correct the price I think), my take comes out 12tons left over with the ATV included in the Boat tonnage (it's designated as "fitted to ferry the ATV" and would leave room for 7 passengers or some baggage)

Type C - looks ok I think

Type T - model/3 computer price should be MCr18, you missed adding the two triple lasers and two triple missiles

Type L - I come to 20tons over for a standard hull (1 ton wasted drive space), my suggestion to correct is reduce cargo to just 3tons (acceptable, preferred as least damaging, cargo not really needed aboard ship), the price is hard to call, the labs should cost something imo so maybe that's where the difference is to be made up

Type K - you've noted 2x hardpoints and 2x firecontrol (typos) but only allowed 1 of each (which is correct), streamlined cost is MCr1 too low, you've got a typo on the jump fuel in the tonnage column (should be 40 not 60) which is why you got pushed over, otherwise good, my suggestion for fixing the price is similar to the Lab Ship, the capture tanks and trophy lounge should cost something, the capture tanks need life support similar to staterooms for live specimen transport imo, the trophy lounge just some luxury appointments

 

[far-trader]

Is it smarter, perhaps, to build as a custom hull and keep it P3?

I prefer it to be a standard hull with 1ton waste space, because the drives will fit and it does say 14 months to build which is for a standard hull.

Does the P3 give it any advantages?

Not under Bk2/TTB...

Except for damage soak. And I figure labs take some juice to operate. Besides it's what the design says so I wouldn't dismiss it if there are simpler fixes.

...and the fuel required is what pushed it over limit.

Not quite though. Only half of the overage, so we need to look elsewhere I think. Cargo is the simplest, drop it from 23tons to 3tons as I noted in the post above.

...I think we're best left with reducing the PP to P2 for this design.

Anyone disagree?

Yes See my notes above and in the previous post. Oh, you already have by the time you read this haven't you

 

[aramis]

Corrected the K based upon Dan's notes. (i'll do others tmw.)
L still 10 over with P2; I'd drop cargo to 13 tons and go with P2; allow an option to upgrade to P3...

 

[far-trader]

For comparison, my take on the Type L (aramis' format for ease of comparison):

[FONT=Courier New]Type L
DTd MTd.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]MCr[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR].[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] Item
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]50 350.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]16.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] 400 Td Std Hull
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]25 [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]40.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] JD D J2
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]5 [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]12.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] MD C 1G
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]19 [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]48.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] PP F P3
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0 [COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]30.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] Fuel: 3x10 PP
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0 [COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]80.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] Fuel: 1J2 400*10% =80
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0 [COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]20.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]2.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] Bridge
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0 [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]2.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]9.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] Model 2
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0 [COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]80.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]10.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] 20 SR
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0 [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]2.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0.2[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR] 2xHP & 2xFC
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0 [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]8.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]1.2[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR] 2x Air/Raft
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0 [COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]40.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]20.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] 40T Pinnace
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0 [COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]23.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] Cargo 23T
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0 [COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]85.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] Lab Space
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0 [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] Unstreamlined
=== ===== ======= =====================
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]49 370.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] 158.4[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR] subtotal
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0 [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]0.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] -15.84[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] Std Discount
=== ===== ======= =====================
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]49 370.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] 142.56[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] Total (Bk says MCr158.98)
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR]1 [COLOR=#fcfcfc]__[/COLOR][COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR].[COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] unused (Drive Section waste noted)
[COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR]20.[COLOR=#fcfcfc]_[/COLOR] [COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR].[COLOR=#fcfcfc]___[/COLOR] overage**[/FONT]

passenger error: I'd say instead Passengers 15 or 30 double occupancy (no crew double occupancy), instead of 20 and 35

the fuel issue on p59 and p66 that aramis noted is the result of 1st ed rules I suspect where J2 (it should say J2 not J1 as aramis noted) and P1 (implied) would work with 90tons of fuel required, just a legacy cut and paste error there

** my overage of a round 20 tons suggests to me a simple math error in the original, easiest fix is cargo (the obvious odd number being the leftover) reduced to 3 tons (don't need much anyway for a lab ship)

cost difference I'd put down to lab space expense (but pick some round value that will work out close) and perhaps architect's fees being included when they shouldn't have been

the book's MCr158.98 works to MCr176.64- and using my total that leaves MCr18.24- towards lab space, dividing by 85tons looks to round close to MCr0.2 per ton

so I'd add a note that Lab Space is priced at MCr0.2 per ton and adjust my final price to include that, coming to MCr175.4 before discount, MCrMCr157.86 after discount

or pick another round cost for Lab Space (if MC0.2 per ton seems low), note it in the text and adjust the price to reflect it

 

[robject]

or pick another round cost for Lab Space (if MC0.2 per ton seems low), note it in the text and adjust the price to reflect it

Just a random thought: a five-ton lab would be a nice even MCr1, which seems handy. But whatever!

 

[far-trader]

Just a random thought: a five-ton lab would be a nice even MCr1, which seems handy.

It does indeed, especially as it divides nicely into the 85 tons allotted (which is I guess what you mean). So 17 labs at an added cost of MCr17. Works for me.

 

[aramis]

Labs should have a cost; I agree 5Td, MCr1 sounds right.
It is an addendum, however, not a correction!

The Capture tanks probably should be about MCr1 (2x SR?)
The trophy lounge should be a few KCr... below resolution... since it's essentially waste space.

Dan: Thanks for double checking the maths. Work done at 2AM is often not quite right.

Most prices still off. (S, R, M, C, T, L K)

Note on the T: price is wrong no matter what we load it with. Further, it doesn't specify Beam or Pulse lasers!

 

[DonM]

Are these ready to go yet?

 

[DonM]

Hoping someone remembers to finish their work?

 

[aramis]

Until we get a canonical answer from some other edition of CT, the T is unfixable. We need an answer on Beam or Pulse.

We need a comparison exigesis on the other appearances of the Type L.

I don't know where my Bk2 is...

 

[DonM]

Until we get a canonical answer from some other edition of CT, the T is unfixable. We need an answer on Beam or Pulse.

I'm told it was beam. In fact, at one point, pulse was going to be removed from the rules (which explains Mayday, it just has "lasers").

We need a comparison exigesis on the other appearances of the Type L.

Which appearances, and I can pull them...

I don't know where my Bk2 is...

Do you need something specific? I can provide comparative text from all the CT editions on a specific item...

 

[aramis]

Essentially, the ships and the ship design section... compare for pricing differences with CT2 Bk 2 and TTB.

Likewise, should cross-check those same elements with Starter; if we get one consolidated list of CT official ships checked against ONE book, we need to verify that the other books are not going to give other results.

Also, we need an "official addendum" on labs and capture tanks: prices, sizes, etc... do we fix the design system? Or adjust the prices down?

 

[Max]

the type L (lab ship) might not have an air raft. the book supplement 4 from 1979 says "The lab ship is not streamlined, but does carry a single pinnace, with provision for landing either an ATV or an air/raft to a planetary surface; no ATV or air/raft is initially provided."

The whole entry is (with typos and capitalization and punctuation replicated from the original):

Scientist characters may receive a laboratory ship as a benefit. This ship must be assumed to be provided by some scientific foundation and cannot be sold or disposed of.
Lab Ship(Type L): based on a 400 ton hull, the Type L Lab ship is equipped with jump drive-D, manuver drive-C and power plant-C; it is capable of jump-2 an and 1G acceleration. Twenty staterooms provide quarters for the crew of five (pilot, navigator, medic, and two engineers), plus scientific and research personel as necessary. Fuel tankage is 90 tons, and the computer is a Model/2. The lab ship is not streamlined, but does carry a single pinnace, with provision for landing either an ATV or an air/raft to a planetary surface; no ATV or air/raft is initially provided. The ship has two hardpoints specified, but no turents or weapondry. One hundrdtons of laboratory sace is desgnated with provisions for a wide variety of equipment and research; most equipment in the lans is common and easily purchased and little unique equipment is present. Twenty-four tons of cargo space is provided.
Base price for the type L lab ship is Cr 161,000,000.​

I could spec it, but is there any point? The other example of the lab ship to check would be that it appeared in one of the double adventures, I think it is The Argon Gambit/Death Station but I cannot find my copy to check.

 

[aramis]

OK, Thanks, Max.

Supp 4 79

Lab Ship(Type L): based on a 400 ton hull, the Type L Lab ship is equipped with jump drive-D, manuver drive-C and power plant-C; it is capable of jump-2 an and 1G acceleration. Twenty staterooms provide quarters for the crew of five (pilot, navigator, medic, and two engineers), plus scientific and research personel as necessary. Fuel tankage is 90 tons, and the computer is a Model/2. The lab ship is not streamlined, but does carry a single pinnace, with provision for landing either an ATV or an air/raft to a planetary surface; no ATV or air/raft is initially provided. The ship has two hardpoints specified, but no turents or weapondry. One hundrdtons of laboratory sace is desgnated with provisions for a wide variety of equipment and research; most equipment in the lans is common and easily purchased and little unique equipment is present. Twenty-four tons of cargo space is provided.
Base price for the type L lab ship is Cr 161,000,000.​

Type L - quoth by Max from S4
DTd MTd._ _MCr_._ Item
400._ _40.___ 400 Td custom Hull **
_25._ _40.___ JD D J2 *
__5._ _12.___ MD C 1G *
_10 _ _24.___ PP C P1 **
_10._ __0.___ Fuel: 1x10 PP ***
_80._ __0.___ Fuel: 1J2 400*10% =80 ***
_20._ __2.___ Bridge *
__2._ __9.___ Model 2
_80._ _10.___ 20 SR *
__2._ __0.2__ 2xHP & 2xFC *
_40._ _20.___ 40T Pinnace *
_24._ __0.___ Cargo 24T **
100._ __0.___ Lab Space **
__0._ __0.___ Unstreamlined
===== ======= =====================
398._ 157.2__ subtotal
__0._ -15.72_ Std Discount
===== ======= =====================
398._ 141.48_ Total (Bk says MCr158.98)
__2._ ___.___ unused

* congruent with design above
** notable differences.

Note also: switch to CT 2E design makes PP underrated for design. Price STILL doesn't match up, but I don't have CT1E anywhere...

If someone does, if they could plug in the CT 1E numbers?

 

[DonM]

Essentially, the ships and the ship design section... compare for pricing differences with CT2 Bk 2 and TTB.

Likewise, should cross-check those same elements with Starter; if we get one consolidated list of CT official ships checked against ONE book, we need to verify that the other books are not going to give other results.

We're talking Book2 '81, TTB '82 and ST '83. I'll go see what I can find on that, I've got the text for that.

Also, we need an "official addendum" on labs and capture tanks: prices, sizes, etc... do we fix the design system? Or adjust the prices down?

We can certainly make a suggestion on "official addendum". In fact, I'm hoping that what I'm doing will generate some of that in a clean fashion.

I'm hampered only in the case of High Guard '81; Marc says only clarifications are needed, as the only HG2 errata was fixed in TCS. So no errata for HG2, just clairifications. I think, however, that if we can make a strong case for errata, we might be able to convince Marc even there.

 

[DonM]

We're talking Book2 '81, TTB '82 and ST '83. I'll go see what I can find on that, I've got the text for that.

Differences between Starter Traveller and The Traveller Book:

The Building Custom Ships and Formats sections do not appear in Starter Traveller.

Differences between Starter Traveller and Book 2 '81:
Small Craft have computer options (and weapon impacts) in TTB/ST.

The standard ships have some different wording in Book 2, but no real changes...
except that the Type T has 160 tons of fuel in TTB/ST, 120 in Book2/81, and has the 8 troops as crew ("a crew of 18") in Book 2.
The Lab Ship and Safari Ship do not appear in Book 2.

Cannot find any cost differences between the three printings.

 

[aramis]

The lack of custom hulls woud be a huge oversight; on errata? especially since several designs would require custom hulls.

On the S4 Type L; do we have a post-81 S4?

 

[DonM]

S4 was never revised... I'd stick with the TTB/ST versions of the K and L ships.

 

[DonM]

Ideally, you take the ST text, add the missing Custom Ships and Format sections and use that. There's no real differences, but the ST text is much cleaner to read.

If only the editor of ST had been around for MegaTraveller...

 

[aramis]

S4 was never revised... I'd stick with the TTB/ST versions of the K and L ships.

Then the Type L should probably be J2, M1, P2, Std Hull.