[CT Errata] TTB ship designs Review

[DonM]

Can you post a final to critique, and then I'll add all of these to the errata?

 

[aramis]

I'm not certain there is a consensus on the Type L...

 

[far-trader]

I'm not certain there is a consensus on the Type L...

I'm certain there is not a consensus on the Type L...



(but I need to come back to it, and all the rest of the CT errata hunt, a little later... )

 

[DonM]

I thought we'd assume J2, M1, P2, Std Hull, as you proposed.

 

[far-trader]

I was just raising a hand in reply to aramis' note

I can leave this to him, he took it on, I only offered another opinion while checking his work.

Not my call of course but I prefer for myself to be as soft as possible when "correcting" errata like this. I'd keep the important stats the same and make up the 20ton overage by reducing the least important factor for the Lab Ship, the cargo (all imo of course). Per my earlier post (24 on page 3 this thread).

I'll have to make some time to get back to the whole CT errata thing soon but this weekend looks busy.

 

[DonM]

Except that as mentioned above, leaving it as P3 doesn't actually help the ship at all.

 

[aramis]

Type S
DTd MTd _MCr._ Item
_15 _85 __2.__ 100 Td Std Hull
_10 __0 _10.__ JD A J2
__1 __0 __4.__ MD A 2G
__4 __0 __8.__ PP A
__0 _20 __0.__ Fuel: 2x10 PP
__0 _20 __0.__ Fuel: 1J2 100*20% =20
__0 _20 __0.5_ Bridge
__0 __1 __4.__ Model 1/bis
__0 _16 __2.__ 4 SR
__0 __1 __0.1_ HP & FC
__0 __0 __0.5_ Double Turret (empty)
__0 __4 __0.6_ Air/Raft
__0 __3 __0.__ Cargo 3T
__0 __0 __1.__ Streamlined
=== === ====== =====================
_15 _85 _32.7_ subtotal
__0 __0 _-3.27 Std Discount
=== === ====== =====================
_15 _85 _28.43 Total (Book says MCr29.43)
__0 __0 __0.__ Remainder

Crew: Pilot, Optional Gunner.

Type A
DTd MTd _MCr._ Item
_15 185 __8.__ 200 Td Std Hull
_10 __0 _10.__ JD A J1
__1 __0 __4.__ MD A 1G
__4 __0 __8.__ PP A P1
__0 _10 __0.__ Fuel: 1x10=10 PP
__0 _20 __0.__ Fuel: 1J1 200*10% =20
__0 _20 __1.__ Bridge
__0 __1 __2.__ Model 1
__0 _40 __5.__ 10 SR
__0 _10 __1.__ 20 LB
__0 __2 __0.2_ 2xHP & 2xFC
__0 _82 __0.__ Cargo 82T
__0 __0 __2.__ Streamlined
=== === ====== =====================
_15 185 _41.2_ subtotal
__0 __0 _-4.12 Std Discount
=== === ====== =====================
_15 185 _37.08 Total (book says MCr37.08)


Crew: Pilot, Engineer, Steward, Medic. 2x Gunner optional. (matches book)

Book correct.

 

[aramis]

Type R
DTd MTd._ _MCr_._ Item
_50 350._ _16.___ 400 Td Std Hull
_20 __0._ _30.___ JD C J1
__5 __0._ _12.___ MD C 1G
_10 __0._ _24.___ PP C P1
__0 _10._ __0.___ Fuel: 1x10 PP
__0 _40._ __0.___ Fuel: 1J1 400*10% =40
__0 _20._ __2.___ Bridge
__0 __1._ __2.___ Model 1
__0 _52._ __6.5__ 13 SR
__0 __4.5 __0.45_ 9x LB
__0 __2._ __0.2__ 2xHP & 2xFC
__0 _20._ _14.___ 20T Launch
__0 200._ __0.___ Cargo 200T
__0 __0._ __4.___ Streamlined
=== ===== ======= =====================
_35 349.5 111.15_ subtotal
__0 __0._ -11.115 Std Discount
=== ===== ======= =====================
_35 349.5 100.035 Total (Bk says MCr101.03)
_15 __0.5 ___.___ unused

Crew: Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, Steward, Medic. Two gunners optional. Crew Matches book.

Book price off by MCr1

Type M Subsidized Liner (1983 TTB version)
Drvs Main Price Item
__85 _515 _48.__ 600Td Std Hull
__50 ___0 _90.__ JD J
___5 ___0 _12.__ MD C
__28 ___0 _72.__ PP J
___0 __20 __3.__ Bridge
___0 _180 __0.__ JFuel
___0 __30 __0.__ PP Fuel
___0 ___3 __0.3_ 3 Hard Points + Fire Control
___0 ___3 _18.__ Model 3 computer*
___0 __10 __1.__ 20 Low Berths
___0 _120 _15.__ 30 Staterooms
___0 __20 _14.__ Launch
___0 _129 __0.__ 129 Cargo tons
___0 ___0 __0.__ Unstreamlined
==== ==== ====== ====================
__83 _515 273.3_ total
___0 ___0 _27.33 Std Discount
==== ==== ====== ====================
___0 _515 245.97 total (Book says MCr236.97)
___2 ___0 __0.__ Remainder
* not in book; errata already noted on that.

Crew: Pilot, Navigator, 3x Engineer, Medic, 3 stewards. Up to 3 optional gunners. Crew matches book

Type Y
DTd MTd _MCr.__ Item
_15 185 __8.___ 200 Td Std Hull
_10 __0 _10.___ JD A J1
__1 __0 __4.___ MD A 1G
__4 __0 __8.___ PP A P1
__0 _10 __0.___ Fuel: 1x10=10 PP
__0 _40 __0.___ Fuel: 2J1 2*200*10% =40
__0 _20 __1.___ Bridge
__0 __1 __2.___ Model 1
__0 _56 __7.___ 14 SR
__0 __1 __0.1__ 1xHP & 1xFC
__0 __4 __0.6__ Air/Raft
__0 _30 _16.___ Ship's Boat
__0 _10 __0.03_ ATV
__0 _11 __0.___ Cargo 11T
__0 __0 __0.___ Unstreamlined
=== === ======= =====================
_15 183 _56.73_ subtotal
__0 __0 _-5.673 Std Discount
=== === ======= =====================
_15 183 _51.057 Total (book says MCr51.057)
__0 __2 ___.___ unused

Pilot, Engineer, Medic. Since the ship is non-commercial, no steward is required. 1 gunner optional. Book lists a required steward.

 

[aramis]

Type C
MTd _MCr.__ Item
800 _80.___ 800 Td Custom Hull
_65 120.___ JD M J3
_23 _48.___ MD M 3G
_37 _96.___ PP M P3
_30 __0.___ Fuel: 3x10=10 PP
240 __0.___ Fuel: 1J3 800*30% =240
_48 __0.___ Fuel Reserve for Small Craft (total 318)
_20 __4.___ Bridge
__5 _45.___ Model 5
100 _12.5__ 25 SR
__8 __0.8__ 8xHP & 8xFC
__0 __8.___ 8x Triple Turrets (empty)
100 _56.___ 2x Cutter
__0 __3.6__ in cutters: 2x ATV modules
_60 __3.0__ open Module, Fuel Module
__0 __0.06_ In ATV Modules: 2xATV
__4 __0.6__ Air/Raft
_80 __0.___ Cargo 80T
__0 __0.___ Unstreamlined
=== ======= =====================
820 476.96_ subtotal
__0 _47.696 Std Discount
=== ======= =====================
820 429.264 Total (book says MCr445.95)
_20 ___.___ Overage

Pilot, Navigator, 4x Engineer, medic, 8x gunner optional. This is a crew of 7+Gunners. No stewards are needed due to non-commercial service. Book adds a CO.

Type K
_Td _MCr._ Item
200 _20.__ 200 Td Custom Hull
_15 _20.__ JD B J2
__1 __4.__ MD A 1G
__7 _16.__ PP B P2
_20 __0.__ Fuel: 2x10=10 PP
_40 __0.__ Fuel: 1J2 200*20% =40
_20 __1.__ Bridge
__1 __4.__ Model 1/bis
_44 __5.5_ 11 SR
__1 __0.1_ 1xHP & 1xFC
__0 __0.5_ Double Turret (empty)
__4 __0.6_ Air/Raft
_20 _14.__ 20T Launch
__6 __0.__ Cargo 6T
_14 __0.__ 2x7T capture tanks
__7 __0.__ trophy lounge
__0 __2.__ Streamlined
=== ====== =====================
200 _87.7_ subtotal
__0 _-8.77 Std Discount
=== ====== =====================
200 _78.93 Total (book says MCr81.08)
_0 ____._ overage

Pilot, Engineer, Medic, Optional Gunner. non commercial, no steward required. Book requires steward and navigator.

Type L...
Following Makes it work, leaves 7 unused, instead of 1, in the drive compartment.

Type L
DTd MTd._ _MCr_._ Item
_50 350._ _16.___ 400 Td Std Hull
_25 __0._ _40.___ JD D J2
__5 __0._ _12.___ MD C 1G
_13 __0._ _32.___ PP D P2
__0 _20._ __0.___ Fuel: 2x10 PP
__0 _80._ __0.___ Fuel: 1J2 400*10% =80
__0 _20._ __2.___ Bridge
__0 __2._ __9.___ Model 2
__0 _80._ _10.___ 20 SR
__0 __2._ __0.2__ 2xHP & 2xFC
__0 __8._ __1.2__ 2x Air/Raft
__0 _40._ _20.___ 40T Pinnace
__0 _23._ __0.___ Cargo 23T
__0 _85._ __0.___ Lab Space
__0 __0._ __0.___ Unstreamlined
=== ===== ======= =====================
_43 350._ 142.4__ subtotal
__0 __0._ -14.24_ Std Discount
=== ===== ======= =====================
_43 360._ 128.16_ Total (Bk says MCr158.98)
__7 _____ ___.___ unused (Drive Section waste noted)
___ _10._ ___.___ overage**
passenger error: Crew 5, 20SR, max 15 pass, 35 DO, instead of 20 and 35
**Fuel issue on p59 & p66: lists 90Td, for 1J1 (and PP5); drive is J2 and P3; 20 extra tons needed for P3; ship can function at 10 extra by operating at P2, fixing overage

Pilot, Navigator, Medic, 2 Engineers. Matches book.[/QUOTE]

Can you post a final to critique, and then I'll add all of these to the errata?

The above are pretty well stabilized, using the Type L as 1J2 M1 P2.

The Type T needs a cosmetic adding of the weapons.

 

[aramis]

Type T
MTd._ _MCr_._ Item
400._ _40.__- 400 Td Custom Hull
_35._ _60.___ JD F J3
_15._ _32.___ MD H 4G
_25._ _64.___ PP H P4
_40._ __0.___ Fuel: 4x10 PP
120._ __0.___ Fuel: 1J3 400*30% =120
_20._ __2.___ Bridge
__3._ _18.___ Model 3
_48._ __6.___ 12 SR
__2._ __0.2__ 4x LB
__4._ __0.4__ 4xHP & 4xFC
__0._ __6.___ 2x3xLaser (Unspecified type, pulse used)
__0._ __4.5__ 2x3xMissle
__8._ __1.0__ G-Carrier
_30._ _16.___ 30T Ship's Boat
_50._ __0.___ Cargo 50T
__0._ __4.___ Streamlined
===== ======= =====================
398._ 254.1__ subtotal
__0._ -25.41_ Std Discount
===== ======= =====================
398._ 228.69 Total (Bk says MCr221.04)
__2._ ___.___ unused

Pilot, Navigator, 3x Engineer, Medic, 4 gunners. No stewards due to non commercial status. Total crew 10, 2 extra SR's. Notation that 8 troops can be carried if Gunners and Troops double occupancy. (Matches book)

 

[far-trader]

Except that as mentioned above, leaving it as P3 doesn't actually help the ship at all.

Not in a optimized design sense true. I figured it was a colour item. Like not all design choice reasons are known to us. Perhaps the extra power was for all the labs and the various experiments... like flux capacitor charging

I can imagine scenarios where the extra power might factor as important. I have a harder time imagining a need for all that cargo space or a scenario where 20tons less would be critical. It is a science vessel, not a trade ship. 3tons of cargo should be sufficient even for extended missions.

But I'm not going to be upset over choosing the drive change instead. It works well too, though it's still 10tons over looking at aramis' latest notes. Reduce the cargo still seems the best for 13tons cargo instead of 23tons cargo.

To be honest I'd be more interested in seeing a retro-canon price for labs included in the errata (oh, and a price for the capture tanks in the Safari too please)

 

[DonM]

But I'm not going to be upset over choosing the drive change instead. It works well too, though it's still 10tons over looking at aramis' latest notes. Reduce the cargo still seems the best for 13tons cargo instead of 23tons cargo.

To be honest I'd be more interested in seeing a retro-canon price for labs included in the errata (oh, and a price for the capture tanks in the Safari too please)

(text removed)

 

[rancke]

Safari Ship (type K) p. 66: Missing notation that this design uses a custom hull. No steward or navigator are required as crew. Correct cost is MCr 78.93 (after discount).

Um... if a custom hull gets a discount, what's the effective difference between a custom hull and a standard hull? Does a standard hull get two discounts?


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Um... if a custom hull gets a discount, what's the effective difference between a custom hull and a standard hull? Does a standard hull get two discounts?

Sort of. Standard hulls in CT B2 are cheaper (until 800tons where the cost is the same either way) and they can be assembled quicker. Standard hulls are only available up to 1000tons. The downside is you're stuck with a hard coded split between allowed Drives volume and Main volume.

EDIT: Ah! The confusion may be from the two distinct but similar definitions. There are Standard Hulls and there are Standard Designs. Standard Designs get the 10% cost discount applied to the whole ship and you can get the plans cheap (Cr100) and quick, instead of paying the 1% Naval Architect fee and waiting. Standard Hulls may or may not be Standard Designs. And apparently Standard Designs do not always use Standard Hulls. A bit illogical I suppose.

 

[aramis]

Standard hulls have fixed drive compartments that can only have drive systems. They receive a profound discount on smaller hulls.
The 100Td hull is MCr2 instead of MCr10, but only allows 15Td of drives
The 200Td hull is MCr8 instead of MCr20, but only allows 15Td of drives
The 400Td hull is MCr16 instead of MCr40, but only allows 50Td of drives
The 600Td hull is MCr48 instead of MCr60, but only allows 85Td of drives
800 and 1000 Td hulls are no cheaper, only faster to build.

Standard designs get to discount final price, so technically, a standard hull standard design is getting the discount twice.

 

[rancke]

EDIT: Ah! The confusion may be from the two distinct but similar definitions. There are Standard Hulls and there are Standard Designs. Standard Designs get the 10% cost discount applied to the whole ship and you can get the plans cheap (Cr100) and quick, instead of paying the 1% Naval Architect fee and waiting. Standard Hulls may or may not be Standard Designs. And apparently Standard Designs do not always use Standard Hulls. A bit illogical I suppose.

Not so much illogic as in dire need of strict and rigorously applied definitions and explanations.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Standard hulls have fixed drive compartments that can only have drive systems. They receive a profound discount on smaller hulls.
The 100Td hull is MCr2 instead of MCr10, but only allows 15Td of drives
The 200Td hull is MCr8 instead of MCr20, but only allows 15Td of drives
The 400Td hull is MCr16 instead of MCr40, but only allows 50Td of drives
The 600Td hull is MCr48 instead of MCr60, but only allows 85Td of drives
800 and 1000 Td hulls are no cheaper, only faster to build.

Standard designs get to discount final price, so technically, a standard hull standard design is getting the discount twice.

Is it the XdT hull or an XdT hull? I mean, I know the text says 'the', but is there isn't really only one standard hull of each size, its there?

Maybe a bit of clarification on what a standard hull is and what the ramifications are would be useful?


Hans

 

[aramis]

yes it is THE standard hull. A standard design is not the same as a standard hull. Standard vs custom hulls are mechanically simply whether or not there is a defined drive section of the specified size. In the fiction, they are the old Vilani and ROM hull designs.

There are many standard designs for a given size; there are only 6 standard hulls in CT, the 100Td Standard Hull (MCr2, drive section of 15 Td, main compartment of 85Td), etc.., and streamlining can be added to each. In the fiction, there are a variety of designs, but mechanically, they all meet the same game strictures.

A standard design may opt for a standard hull if the drives fit (but that usually leaves some waste space not recapturable), or not.

Standard designs simply are designs with plans on file. Since they have been in use for centuries, they have known quirks, and can be assembled in optimal sequences due to having decades or centuries of progress notes to aid the process, and smaller margins on materials because you have well defined plans.

 

[rancke]

In the fiction, there are a variety of designs, but mechanically, they all meet the same game strictures.

But that's just the point I was trying to make. If two hulls differ, then they're two different hulls, even if they have the same game strictures. Game rules ought to (appear to) mimic "reality", not the other way around (Not even if it came about the other way around). There's no reason at all why the standard 200T hull around Antares way can't be different from the standard 200T hull round Aldebaran way. Or any reason why you can't have several different standard 200T hulls in Core.

I've no doubt 'the standard hull' started out as a single, Imperium-wide design, the same from one end of the Imperium (or even Charted Space) to the other. But that idea went south the first time GDW published two different standard hulls of the same size.


Hans

 

[DonM]

To be honest I'd be more interested in seeing a retro-canon price for labs included in the errata (oh, and a price for the capture tanks in the Safari too please)

Yes, we should add that to the clarifications. What was that lab price, and what's the capture tank price in the type K?