CT Experience System

[cheeb2002]

I'm getting ready to start a Classic Traveller campaign - or at least play a scenario or two - and I am concerned about the official CT Experience system. Obviously, as the referee, I can institute whatever system I like, but I don't want to mess with the rules unless I need to.

So, basically, my question is this: what was the rationale behind the ultra-slow experience system in CT? I mean, eight years to increase a skill is a little, um, unrealistic, isn't it? And four years and Cr70,000 to gain a skill - and it can only be done once/lifetime - seems very limiting, doncha think?

If there is a valid realism aspect to this, I'd at least like to try it once before I try something else.

 

[cheeb2002]

I'm getting ready to start a Classic Traveller campaign - or at least play a scenario or two - and I am concerned about the official CT Experience system. Obviously, as the referee, I can institute whatever system I like, but I don't want to mess with the rules unless I need to.

So, basically, my question is this: what was the rationale behind the ultra-slow experience system in CT? I mean, eight years to increase a skill is a little, um, unrealistic, isn't it? And four years and Cr70,000 to gain a skill - and it can only be done once/lifetime - seems very limiting, doncha think?

If there is a valid realism aspect to this, I'd at least like to try it once before I try something else.

 

[cheeb2002]

Never mind. If you want to answer, I'd appreciate it, but I got the thinking about people train themselves and about how *I* have taught myself various things in the past, and I realized that it should be fairly easy to learn new things if you really put your head to it.

(Man, I keep having to edit this post as I find bugs in the ideas.)

So here's an idea:

Education improvement remains the same, except that Intelligence may also go up by one (throw 6+, DM-Half Current Intelligence) when a course is finished. This represents the fact that learning new things increases your ability to learn. Sabbaticals can stay the same, but allow 0-level skills to obtained through the skill improvement rules, below.

Weapon Expertise and Skill Improvement are the same, except that the period is only two years, not four. This gives a chance at making permanent improvements to two skills once every four years, which is about twice what you get in the prior career phase for all but military/scouts/merchants careers, who can gain skills during their career by the after-session experience rule below (maybe change the no. of skill rolls you get in generation? An additional Int/5 per term, maybe?)

Physical Fitness is the same, except that after four years, the increase becomes permanent, so you can try for more.

In addition, how about allowing a throw of 7+, DM +Level for skills (including weapons) at the end of any sufficiently long adventure or game sesssion to increase the skill level if it was used successfully in a difficult situation or in a way that furthered the plot?

With this, you could start the characters 1D-1 years after their discharge, with more skill levels and/or higher physical/mental stats.

In addition, how about letting players choose a skill from the skill list whenever they roll Jack-o-T after the first time? That makes more sense to me than anything I've seen done with this skill.

Just some thoughts. I'm not sure that I'm a fan of the 8x as fast XP system in D&D 3e, but I think I'll run with this (which is about 2x as fast).

Now I'm going to have to roll some more dice to bring some NPCs in line with this system...

 

[cheeb2002]

Never mind. If you want to answer, I'd appreciate it, but I got the thinking about people train themselves and about how *I* have taught myself various things in the past, and I realized that it should be fairly easy to learn new things if you really put your head to it.

(Man, I keep having to edit this post as I find bugs in the ideas.)

So here's an idea:

Education improvement remains the same, except that Intelligence may also go up by one (throw 6+, DM-Half Current Intelligence) when a course is finished. This represents the fact that learning new things increases your ability to learn. Sabbaticals can stay the same, but allow 0-level skills to obtained through the skill improvement rules, below.

Weapon Expertise and Skill Improvement are the same, except that the period is only two years, not four. This gives a chance at making permanent improvements to two skills once every four years, which is about twice what you get in the prior career phase for all but military/scouts/merchants careers, who can gain skills during their career by the after-session experience rule below (maybe change the no. of skill rolls you get in generation? An additional Int/5 per term, maybe?)

Physical Fitness is the same, except that after four years, the increase becomes permanent, so you can try for more.

In addition, how about allowing a throw of 7+, DM +Level for skills (including weapons) at the end of any sufficiently long adventure or game sesssion to increase the skill level if it was used successfully in a difficult situation or in a way that furthered the plot?

With this, you could start the characters 1D-1 years after their discharge, with more skill levels and/or higher physical/mental stats.

In addition, how about letting players choose a skill from the skill list whenever they roll Jack-o-T after the first time? That makes more sense to me than anything I've seen done with this skill.

Just some thoughts. I'm not sure that I'm a fan of the 8x as fast XP system in D&D 3e, but I think I'll run with this (which is about 2x as fast).

Now I'm going to have to roll some more dice to bring some NPCs in line with this system...

 

[Sophiathegreen]

This was one of the weak point of the traveller game system was how to improve the character while playing. Than Pilot alway use his pilot skill very time he or she can will get better at it. The only good expeince system I seen where the D&D like one and the C&S 3rd and 4th edition where to gains level you have to spent EP points to impove your character abilities of skills. The point to increass your skill
depence on your character type and the type of skill you want to increase some skill like knife fighting any character type can pick up with few EP points, as your skill go up past your character level it cost more points to increase.

This was one of the experment to get away from character level and experience table. I wonder does
Traveller D20 have character level in it at all.

 

[Sophiathegreen]

This was one of the weak point of the traveller game system was how to improve the character while playing. Than Pilot alway use his pilot skill very time he or she can will get better at it. The only good expeince system I seen where the D&D like one and the C&S 3rd and 4th edition where to gains level you have to spent EP points to impove your character abilities of skills. The point to increass your skill
depence on your character type and the type of skill you want to increase some skill like knife fighting any character type can pick up with few EP points, as your skill go up past your character level it cost more points to increase.

This was one of the experment to get away from character level and experience table. I wonder does
Traveller D20 have character level in it at all.

 

[hirch duckfinder]

In addition, how about allowing a throw of 7+, DM +Level for skills (including weapons) at the end of any sufficiently long adventure or game sesssion to increase the skill level if it was used successfully in a difficult situation or in a way that furthered the plot?

----- i dont like the throw idea ; skill imrovement isn't really chance . you can learn from mistakes as much as success . i prefer to award 1/10th or 1/5th of a point for appropriate attempted use of a skill under ( genuine ) pressure , or just use common sense . ( working in a vac suit every day for three months . not massive pressure but you are bound to improve a from 0-1 or 1-2 . obviously the higher your skill level , the harder to improve , so if you start at vac-4 you may not improve in three months unless there is a pressure situation )

 

[hirch duckfinder]

In addition, how about allowing a throw of 7+, DM +Level for skills (including weapons) at the end of any sufficiently long adventure or game sesssion to increase the skill level if it was used successfully in a difficult situation or in a way that furthered the plot?

----- i dont like the throw idea ; skill imrovement isn't really chance . you can learn from mistakes as much as success . i prefer to award 1/10th or 1/5th of a point for appropriate attempted use of a skill under ( genuine ) pressure , or just use common sense . ( working in a vac suit every day for three months . not massive pressure but you are bound to improve a from 0-1 or 1-2 . obviously the higher your skill level , the harder to improve , so if you start at vac-4 you may not improve in three months unless there is a pressure situation )

 

[cheeb2002]

Originally posted by hirch duckfinder:
In addition, how about allowing a throw of 7+, DM +Level for skills (including weapons) at the end of any sufficiently long adventure or game sesssion to increase the skill level if it was used successfully in a difficult situation or in a way that furthered the plot?

----- i dont like the throw idea ; skill imrovement isn't really chance . you can learn from mistakes as much as success . i prefer to award 1/10th or 1/5th of a point for appropriate attempted use of a skill under ( genuine ) pressure , or just use common sense . ( working in a vac suit every day for three months . not massive pressure but you are bound to improve a from 0-1 or 1-2 . obviously the higher your skill level , the harder to improve , so if you start at vac-4 you may not improve in three months unless there is a pressure situation )

You make some good points. Not that skill throws necessarily represent chance - they could represent dedication or other such things - but there's some truth in what you said.

So, perhaps a better system would be to award 1/10th point for every two weeks spent in training or for every use of the skill under pressure, and require a number of points equal to the next higher level, or just one-tenth for a skill level of zero. This should work for increasing ability scores, as well (except Social Standing).

Miliitary types would have a lot of training when they're not on missions and a lot of "pressureful" (is that a word?) situations when they are. Merchants would be constantly dealing with haggling, speculating, outrunning/outgunning pirates, etc. Scouts would be in pressured situations a good bit, too, due to the nature of their work. And the rest would mostly be doing their job, and not in really pressured situations, so they wouldn't get as many. OK.

What kind of bonus to skills do you think would need to be added in character generation to bring it inline with this advancement system?

Alternatively (heh heh) you could (heh heh) change the way that characters receive skills in the first place:

Each term, characters get an additional 2.6 experience points (that's one full year of training). Add 2.6 if it is the first term (or if you are a scout), +2.6 if you get commissioned, and +2.6 if you get promoted.

Players can roll for skills each term, subtracting the experience required to get it (1.1 for each new skill, of course), as many times as they can until they roll a skill that would require more experience than they have for the next level. After that is rolled, all experience from future terms will be placed toward it until it has been bought.

How does that sound? I think that advancement and prior service should be more or less the same system.

 

[cheeb2002]

Originally posted by hirch duckfinder:
In addition, how about allowing a throw of 7+, DM +Level for skills (including weapons) at the end of any sufficiently long adventure or game sesssion to increase the skill level if it was used successfully in a difficult situation or in a way that furthered the plot?

----- i dont like the throw idea ; skill imrovement isn't really chance . you can learn from mistakes as much as success . i prefer to award 1/10th or 1/5th of a point for appropriate attempted use of a skill under ( genuine ) pressure , or just use common sense . ( working in a vac suit every day for three months . not massive pressure but you are bound to improve a from 0-1 or 1-2 . obviously the higher your skill level , the harder to improve , so if you start at vac-4 you may not improve in three months unless there is a pressure situation )

You make some good points. Not that skill throws necessarily represent chance - they could represent dedication or other such things - but there's some truth in what you said.

So, perhaps a better system would be to award 1/10th point for every two weeks spent in training or for every use of the skill under pressure, and require a number of points equal to the next higher level, or just one-tenth for a skill level of zero. This should work for increasing ability scores, as well (except Social Standing).

Miliitary types would have a lot of training when they're not on missions and a lot of "pressureful" (is that a word?) situations when they are. Merchants would be constantly dealing with haggling, speculating, outrunning/outgunning pirates, etc. Scouts would be in pressured situations a good bit, too, due to the nature of their work. And the rest would mostly be doing their job, and not in really pressured situations, so they wouldn't get as many. OK.

What kind of bonus to skills do you think would need to be added in character generation to bring it inline with this advancement system?

Alternatively (heh heh) you could (heh heh) change the way that characters receive skills in the first place:

Each term, characters get an additional 2.6 experience points (that's one full year of training). Add 2.6 if it is the first term (or if you are a scout), +2.6 if you get commissioned, and +2.6 if you get promoted.

Players can roll for skills each term, subtracting the experience required to get it (1.1 for each new skill, of course), as many times as they can until they roll a skill that would require more experience than they have for the next level. After that is rolled, all experience from future terms will be placed toward it until it has been bought.

How does that sound? I think that advancement and prior service should be more or less the same system.

 

[T. Foster]

Do you folks know the MT improvement system? There are 3 branches to it: 1) by observing someone with the skill and succeeding in a roll (or researching independently and succeeding at a harder roll) a character get get 'temporary skill-0'; 2) by enrolling in an education/training program and succeeding at determination tasks characters can gain/improve skills over time; 3) at the end of each adventure (or suitable equivalent period of time) each character gains an 'improvement point' in a skill or characteristic which was used in some crucial manner. These IPs are then used as positive DMs on a task to improve the skill/characteristic (obviously its more detailed and I'm missing some nuances, but hopefully you can get the basic idea).

I like this system a lot because it allows for gradual improvement over time at a pace approximately equal to that of char-gen (~1 skill point per year) without falling into the trap of "I discovered the secret of the Ancients so now I'm a better navigator" (or its evil twin, the BRP-esque "I've got a success with my rifle, so now I'm going to switch to my pistol").

I also use the MT (and late CT -- Book 7, IIRC) rule that total skill points are limited to Int+Edu. Given 'standard' improvement rates (2.5 skill points/term) an average character will 'max out' around age 40 (6 terms). Thereafter to continue learning and gaining new knowledge and skills he will consequently have to forget stuff in other areas. I like this, and not just for the anti-munchkin factor.

 

[T. Foster]

Do you folks know the MT improvement system? There are 3 branches to it: 1) by observing someone with the skill and succeeding in a roll (or researching independently and succeeding at a harder roll) a character get get 'temporary skill-0'; 2) by enrolling in an education/training program and succeeding at determination tasks characters can gain/improve skills over time; 3) at the end of each adventure (or suitable equivalent period of time) each character gains an 'improvement point' in a skill or characteristic which was used in some crucial manner. These IPs are then used as positive DMs on a task to improve the skill/characteristic (obviously its more detailed and I'm missing some nuances, but hopefully you can get the basic idea).

I like this system a lot because it allows for gradual improvement over time at a pace approximately equal to that of char-gen (~1 skill point per year) without falling into the trap of "I discovered the secret of the Ancients so now I'm a better navigator" (or its evil twin, the BRP-esque "I've got a success with my rifle, so now I'm going to switch to my pistol").

I also use the MT (and late CT -- Book 7, IIRC) rule that total skill points are limited to Int+Edu. Given 'standard' improvement rates (2.5 skill points/term) an average character will 'max out' around age 40 (6 terms). Thereafter to continue learning and gaining new knowledge and skills he will consequently have to forget stuff in other areas. I like this, and not just for the anti-munchkin factor.

 

[Ranger]

I've played around with this a little myself, and have written up a couple of pages of rules. I like having more skills per term (ala books 4-7). I also think that skills should be learable/improvable at a rate of basic level 1 in one year. The system I came up with was based on 4 hours of study/practice a week with periodic 'determination checkes' (roll of 8+ using End and Int as modifiers). Failing the roll means that you haven't really been putting in the time (even though you really meant to).

I also like the max skills rule, but modified to max active skills. You call learn all the skill levels you want, but only use up to your max at any given time. This also brought up the issue of skill maintenance. You can choose to just not maintain a skill, and you will loose it without regular use. If you are not activly using a skill regularly you have to choose what level to maintain it at, and then pass a determination check next time you want to use it to see if you really have been doing the maintenance work.

The rules I did are more expansive then this, but you get the general idea.

 

[Ranger]

I've played around with this a little myself, and have written up a couple of pages of rules. I like having more skills per term (ala books 4-7). I also think that skills should be learable/improvable at a rate of basic level 1 in one year. The system I came up with was based on 4 hours of study/practice a week with periodic 'determination checkes' (roll of 8+ using End and Int as modifiers). Failing the roll means that you haven't really been putting in the time (even though you really meant to).

I also like the max skills rule, but modified to max active skills. You call learn all the skill levels you want, but only use up to your max at any given time. This also brought up the issue of skill maintenance. You can choose to just not maintain a skill, and you will loose it without regular use. If you are not activly using a skill regularly you have to choose what level to maintain it at, and then pass a determination check next time you want to use it to see if you really have been doing the maintenance work.

The rules I did are more expansive then this, but you get the general idea.

 

[Nurd_boy]

one CT exp system I developed was based the same semester-like system college used.
each skill is rated as 1-6 'units'(easy skills to learn, like a basic admin, 1 unit...hard sciences several 6 units courses) taken in divided into study blocks of time several sessions a week for the semester equivalent....choose your course, pay the fee/material cost, set up the time slot and make the detication check at midterm and finals.....same basic system as described, but worded in a way my gamers understood better (we where in college at the time !)

 

[Nurd_boy]

one CT exp system I developed was based the same semester-like system college used.
each skill is rated as 1-6 'units'(easy skills to learn, like a basic admin, 1 unit...hard sciences several 6 units courses) taken in divided into study blocks of time several sessions a week for the semester equivalent....choose your course, pay the fee/material cost, set up the time slot and make the detication check at midterm and finals.....same basic system as described, but worded in a way my gamers understood better (we where in college at the time !)

 

[hirch duckfinder]

and require a number of points equal to the next higher level, or just one-tenth for a skill level of zero
--- sorry , you've lost me here

Miliitary types would have a lot of training when they're not on missions and a lot of "pressureful" (is that a word?) situations when they are.

- yes . i would say when not on missions they have to train to maintain skills . i think pressure situations are rarer than you suggest . the character must really be in a situation they would avoid if possible - i.e. in genuine danger - a fight they could easilly loose - then they learn the things that training can't teach them .


.
Merchants would be constantly dealing with haggling, speculating, outrunning/outgunning pirates, etc. Scouts would be in pressured situations a good bit, too, due to the nature of their work. And the rest would mostly be doing their job, and not in really pressured situations, so they wouldn't get as many. OK.

-- i think the pressure is relative to the job . haggling is a normal part of a traders job and doesn't involve undue pressure . unless ,say, you have to obtain a certain price to avoid a threat of some sort . outgunning pirates would certainly be pressure , if the pirates were equally / better armed than the merchant . etc

What kind of bonus to skills do you think would need to be added in character generation to bring it inline with this advancement system?

--- i'd never thought of this . i suppose i think there is no need to change the generation process .

 

[hirch duckfinder]

and require a number of points equal to the next higher level, or just one-tenth for a skill level of zero
--- sorry , you've lost me here

Miliitary types would have a lot of training when they're not on missions and a lot of "pressureful" (is that a word?) situations when they are.

- yes . i would say when not on missions they have to train to maintain skills . i think pressure situations are rarer than you suggest . the character must really be in a situation they would avoid if possible - i.e. in genuine danger - a fight they could easilly loose - then they learn the things that training can't teach them .


.
Merchants would be constantly dealing with haggling, speculating, outrunning/outgunning pirates, etc. Scouts would be in pressured situations a good bit, too, due to the nature of their work. And the rest would mostly be doing their job, and not in really pressured situations, so they wouldn't get as many. OK.

-- i think the pressure is relative to the job . haggling is a normal part of a traders job and doesn't involve undue pressure . unless ,say, you have to obtain a certain price to avoid a threat of some sort . outgunning pirates would certainly be pressure , if the pirates were equally / better armed than the merchant . etc

What kind of bonus to skills do you think would need to be added in character generation to bring it inline with this advancement system?

--- i'd never thought of this . i suppose i think there is no need to change the generation process .

 

[hirch duckfinder]

. This should work for increasing ability scores, as well (except Social Standing).

my two-pence worth :--


---- i forgot to say . i think ability scores are very difficult to change . this requires exceptional circumstances . even education is hard to gain - the character would have to take months / years out to improve . strength can change a little with a LOT of work , dex can never really change ( you can improve its specific application -- i.e. a skill that uses dex e.g. shooting a gun ) . intelligence cant change ( unless by organic change - e.g. brain disease ) . endurance is like strength . social standing can change , but usually not by much . generally speaking characters are too busy to achieve any of this . i'm not much into reff-ing gym programmes .

basically i think abilitiy scores are genetic dispositions - you can tinker a little but fundementally they stay the same .

 

[hirch duckfinder]

. This should work for increasing ability scores, as well (except Social Standing).

my two-pence worth :--


---- i forgot to say . i think ability scores are very difficult to change . this requires exceptional circumstances . even education is hard to gain - the character would have to take months / years out to improve . strength can change a little with a LOT of work , dex can never really change ( you can improve its specific application -- i.e. a skill that uses dex e.g. shooting a gun ) . intelligence cant change ( unless by organic change - e.g. brain disease ) . endurance is like strength . social standing can change , but usually not by much . generally speaking characters are too busy to achieve any of this . i'm not much into reff-ing gym programmes .

basically i think abilitiy scores are genetic dispositions - you can tinker a little but fundementally they stay the same .