And we start to see how/why Starport Class is only loosely linked to TL.
(Well, really, that's not the reason -- but it's a plausible retroactive explanation within a CT-based universe.)
CT+ Ships
- Thread starter infojunky
- Start date
(Well, really, that's not the reason -- but it's a plausible retroactive explanation within a CT-based universe.)
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Do you really need a technological level fifteen fusion reactor?
Would be really more an issue for energy density within a confined space.
Would be really more an issue for energy density within a confined space.
Yes. Yes you do.
In a Type S equivalent compared to TL-9 (in LBB5, not compared to the LBB2 Size A powerplant), it frees up 4Td and saves MCr12.
See, that's the nut of it.
In theory, when pricing stuff out, the charts should take into consideration the currency differences of the different tech levels.
The question is "Everyone would buy a TL15 power plant" it's more "Why wouldn't they all be buying TL11 power plants". I would imagine they're much cheaper at TL15.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
MgT computers suggests a different dynamic- it becomes insanely cheap for TL15 to make TL12 computers.
So, combined with IND productivity, the majority of high value items for TL8-10 may come out of TL12 IND worlds.
OK, I like book2 because is supports the Meme of smaller ships can go faster. Give me a Algorithm that matches that with linear variable drives and you probable have me.
Couple that to the Stated Average Tech Level of the Classic Era Imperium is 12, following that the vast majority of ships should follow that.
Also Note that the bulk of CT sans Book5 Cruisers are around 1000 to 2000 tons with a performance of drives in the 3 to 4 range.
Now consider this a "Maneuver" drive is a bunch of discreate thrust unites built to some specification coupled to a Inertial Compensation system that is based as part of the hull.
While Jump drives will tend to look a auxiliary Power system in the engineering spaces with the bulk of it being a hull feature.
And well the Power Plant is is just that a block with power leads leading to the other Drives.
A last Note, I like the Big Power Plant model from Book5, is gives more playspace for the characters to tinker with their ships.
Now just gimme a working Algorithm for that model. Honestly this is only a Set that is Labeled Traveller Small Ship Universe, note there is the Set labeled Traveller Large Ship Universe as well.
Couple that to the Stated Average Tech Level of the Classic Era Imperium is 12, following that the vast majority of ships should follow that.
Also Note that the bulk of CT sans Book5 Cruisers are around 1000 to 2000 tons with a performance of drives in the 3 to 4 range.
Now consider this a "Maneuver" drive is a bunch of discreate thrust unites built to some specification coupled to a Inertial Compensation system that is based as part of the hull.
While Jump drives will tend to look a auxiliary Power system in the engineering spaces with the bulk of it being a hull feature.
And well the Power Plant is is just that a block with power leads leading to the other Drives.
A last Note, I like the Big Power Plant model from Book5, is gives more playspace for the characters to tinker with their ships.
Now just gimme a working Algorithm for that model. Honestly this is only a Set that is Labeled Traveller Small Ship Universe, note there is the Set labeled Traveller Large Ship Universe as well.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Starwarships need a lot of energy, commercial shipping less, and then you have the suburbs.
So it's a question of how much energy, and if how demand can be filled with minimum expense.
So it's a question of how much energy, and if how demand can be filled with minimum expense.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Simple enough challenge.
Hull codes 0-1 (up to 199 tons = 2 codes) can have a maximum of 6G maneuver.
Hull codes 2-9 (200-1999 tons = 9 codes) can have a maximum of 5G maneuver.
Hull codes B-K (2000-19,999 tons = 9 codes) can have a maximum of 4G maneuver.
Hull codes L-R (20,000-199,999 tons = 6 codes) can have a maximum of 3G maneuver.
Hull codes S-Z (200,000+ tons = 8 codes) can have a maximum of 2G maneuver.
I presume most people reading this post are familiar with this LBB5.80 table from p23:
By restricting the maximum maneuver drive like that, you wind up with Big Ships that are really BIG HULKING SHIPS that aren't able to "turn on a dime" at 6G (let alone Agility=6) and are thus effectively Fleet Assets that need to be screened by smaller craft against high agility threats. Also, with less tonnage needing to be dedicated towards maneuver drives (max 5% instead of 17% in the 100,000+ tons range) you get a completely different mix of internal allocation of displacement than what you would find in LBB S9 (for example).
Something as simple as restricting "powerful" maneuver drives to smaller hulls like that can rather conventionally allow both Small Ships as well as Big Ships to inhabit the same universe while occupying different yet complementary niche roles.
Also note that in such a TU, you can wind up with "starfighters" (with jump drives!) in the 100-199 ton range that would be capable of raiding at distances of 1+ parsecs without needing to rely on a mothership tender/transport for jump as battle riders (although small craft fighters carried by jump tenders will still be perfectly reasonable). It also means that if you want a "blockade runner" you need to go small ... rather than big.
Games that allow you to "have your cake and eat it too" tend to become boring in the long run, simply due to a lack of need for tradeoffs.
I mean ... if you can HAVE IT ALL in a single package ... why wouldn't you want that?
Games that allow you to make choices, but the results of those choices "foreclose" on other options being available, is what makes Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock competition in balancing priorities and specializations much more interesting.
Or at least, that's my line of thinking on the subject.
Your mileage may vary, of course ...
I like this. It's not a limitation of the M-Drive, it's a structural limitation that larger ships can't engineer against. Send a big ship at 6G and all of the bolts start rattling out.
You can boost this at TL. So by TL-15, perhaps, the very large ships can do 4G. TL13-14 3G, TL 11-12 2G, < TL 10 1G.
Something like that.
It's a materials and engineering issue.
Making ships our of bonded superdense frameworks gives them more strength to handle the larger G loads than making them out of hardened steel.
You can boost this at TL. So by TL-15, perhaps, the very large ships can do 4G. TL13-14 3G, TL 11-12 2G, < TL 10 1G.
Something like that.
It's a materials and engineering issue.
Making ships our of bonded superdense frameworks gives them more strength to handle the larger G loads than making them out of hardened steel.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It's more to do with the acceleration compensation field's ability to cope with the acceleration rather than the structural material.
There is no reason to limit big ships maneuver rating, reducing their agility is another matter.
There is no reason to limit big ships maneuver rating, reducing their agility is another matter.
Acceleration is acceleration. 6Gs is 6Gs. If your 500K DTon ship can have instant 6G acceleration, it's going to be as "agile" as anything else.
Because the thrust is a net product. It's "enough thrust" to move the behemoth at 6Gs, and the thrust is, essentially, instantaneous. So, all of that extra mass that the big ship has is already taken into account in the 6G rating. A ship massing a billion tons is going to decel in the same space as a ship massing a 1000 tons if they both have appropriately rated 6G drives.
There's this vision of a "big ship" "slowly lifting off" with a great roar of engine power vs the little ship scooting away. That's because most small ships are overpowered compared to large ships.
But in Traveller, that's not the case. The ships have the same net power.
This missile launches at 130G (!!). If you had a 500K Dton ship that could accelerate at 130G, it'd look the same (save it would be way more impressive, which is saying something -- because this missile is pretty darn impressive).
What the big ship DOES have difficulty doing is "Getting out of the way", but that's what the size modifier does.
Another factor in "agility" is the ability to yaw/roll/pitch. 6G can only do so much if you can't change which direction that thrust is pointing quickly.
In CT/MT/T20 HG? YES!!! .
the TL9 plant is 3× the size, and the same cost per ton as a TL15; even if it's the only TL15 item aboard, a merchant 200 Td J1 M1 P1 saves 4 Td, and MCr12... 50,000 a month in payment savings AND increasing payload by 4 Td, essentially either a steady Cr3600 in freight (Allowing for typical 90% fill) or 4k after expenses for a stateroom (including increased payment).
Nothing else a J1 M1 merchant needs decreases in cost per rating as radically, and the PP on a 200 Td merchantman is MCr 8 under Bk2; under HG, a TL9 is 3%, at MCr3 per Td; a TL 15 is 1% at MCr3 per Td. So... that MCr18 vs MCr6 on that 200Td J1 M1, but no change on the others.
A bit of wilful "creative reading" of the buying things below local TL at -10% per TL difference means you can get a TL9 JD amd MD, and a TL15 PP, saving 40% off the cost of your JD and MD... but the 40% off still doesn't make up for the increased tonnage.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Agreed, but that effect will still remain (to a lesser degree), and you have compounded it by making jump-drives larger.
A low-stellar ship is still larger and more expensive for the same payload, or has a smaller payload for the same size. Either way the cost of the ship per Dton of payload goes up.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
I don't like it because it would increase the cost of a larger M-drive dramatically. Very few civilian ships could motivate the size and cost of an enlarged M-drive, PP, and PP-fuel for the dubious advantage of faster acceleration, cutting the normal time to/from the jump point by an hour or two every few weeks.
One of the nicest things about LBB2'81 is the low cost of increasing the M-drive when you already have the larger PP (to support the jump drive). Faster acceleration is very nice for adventurers, but hardly cost-effective otherwise.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Quite, but we have to suspend our disbelief and ignore that to play with the Imperium...
Tech level differences are here to stay.
The Imperium as envisioned with its vast differences would work much better year 100 than 1100.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Frontier worlds with their own local TL made some sort of sense when the Spinward Marches was a far flung backwater of a sector.
That changed overnight when we found out:
1 there is a constant risk of war with a close to peer polity requiring a huge military presence that somehow doesn't interfere with the activities of ethically challenged merchants
2 it has actually been settled for over a thousand years
3 there are several high population TL15 worlds that can make all the TL15 goods the sector would need
That changed overnight when we found out:
1 there is a constant risk of war with a close to peer polity requiring a huge military presence that somehow doesn't interfere with the activities of ethically challenged merchants
2 it has actually been settled for over a thousand years
3 there are several high population TL15 worlds that can make all the TL15 goods the sector would need
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Even a Fuel Purification Plant (allowing use of unrefined fuel without concern for misjumps) has a lower cost/benefit return on investment than the TL=15 power plant. 50 tons of refined fuel per month (2J1) is only Cr25,000 ... not Cr50,000 like @aramis cites.
The Spinward Marches may have been inhabited for over a thousand years ... but there's still a LOT of frontier out there. The sheer quantity of Non-Industrial worlds (population: 6-) far outnumbers the quantity of population: 7+ worlds.
Using Traveller Map's search feature ... using in:spinward uwp:????[0-6]*-* as the search term yielded 160 star systems, while using in:spinward uwp:????[7-8]*-* as the search term yielded 98 star systems, and using in:spinward uwp:????[9-A]*-* as the search term yielded only 22 star systems.
No surprise, low population worlds outnumber high(er) population worlds in the Spinward Marches sector.
Also, according to Traveller Wiki the Spinward Marches sector has been settled since the 400s (so less than 700 years by 1105) and the Express Network wasn't fully built out to the sector until the early 700s ... meaning that by 1105 the sector has only been "properly integrated" with the rest of the Third Imperium for about 400 years or so. There are "pockets of civilization" scattered around the sector, but there's still PLENTY of wilderness and frontier remaining to be explored and have adventures in. It's actually a pretty decent mixture of tech and population to play with.
The Spinward Marches has FOUR TL=15 star systems inside the Spinward Marches ... Glisten, Rhylanor, Mora and Trin.
Of those four, only Rhylanor isn't an Industrial mainworld, while Glisten, Mora and Trin are Industrial mainworlds (in 1105), per LBB S3.
I'm not entirely convinced that three industrial worlds can produce ALL of the TL=15 good(ie)s that are there is going to be a demand for throughout the sector. In other words, I'm thinking the demand will outstrip the supply ... and you don't need to be an economics major to know what that will do to prices.
Mora may be the most powerful economic world in the sector (and the "Gateway to the Marches") but there's still going to be an upper limit on what Mora can supply to the rest of the sector (with a significant portion of that supply getting dedicated to supporting the Imperial Navy).
So TL=15 "stuff" exists in the sector ... but it isn't going to be ubiquitous, is my point.
And in places like the Five Sisters, Jewell or Vilis subsectors, the supply lines are long enough to make obtaining TL=15 goods ... unreliable at best (hence the impetus for my Five Sisters Clipper and Karin Corvette designs to overcome the "tyranny of distance" due to the location of the Five Sisters subsector).
Another constraint on TL-15 is that it could be restricted cutting-edge military technology. Yes, a big universe provides lots of potential for parallel development or leaks, but it's one narrative method to keep a lid on high-TL dominance in everything.
