CT vs. MGT Character Gen

[GypsyComet]

Yeah, well.

Does anyone have the MGT Core PDF or a later printing? Does it have any indicators of the "Flat Rank Award" aside from the chargen example? I'm not seeing any in the first run HC.

Along similar lines, why does the Entertainer, of all careers, NOT have that flat rank notation? Why is their promotion different?

(also now posted to the MGT board)

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Actually...

Except that such a notation is not used anywhere in CT that I've seen.

"Some skills are automatically acquired by a character (without using eligibility) by virtue of rank or service. These automatic skills are listed on the rank and service skills table. At the point when the character achieves the indicated rank or service, he or she gets the indicated skill" (TTB, page 18)

"There are a finite number of skills listed, and it is possible that one specific skill may be acquired more than once; in such cases, the second acquisition increases the character's expertise in that skill." (TTB, page 21)

"The second time the skill is acquired, the number is increased to show greater expertise" (TTB, also page 21)


Remember, in early RPG writing, subtle semantic interpretations rarely win over obvious ones.

Had to jump in on this finally, but I too go with the interpretation of TTB (assuming that TTB means The Traveller Book) and give the PC a bump in skill if they attain a rank that gives a skill. But I am sorta nice as a GM when Refereeing Traveller, it's just my other games where I am a complete dick.

 

[Supplement Four]

Except that such a notation is not used anywhere in CT that I've seen.

Note that in all instances where the actual skill level doesn't matter, just the name of the skill is listed (and sometimes, the word "skill" is used on some alien character generation tables).

The entire body of all the generation tables just show the name of the skill.

Why show the skill level in the Automatic Skills list if it isn't important? Why not just show the name of the skill as is done all over the rest of Traveller?

Because: The skill level is important.

Automatic skills are meant to be given at the indicated level only. They are not meant to improve the character if the character already has the same skill.

"The second time the skill is acquired, the number is increased to show greater expertise" (TTB, also page 21)

Yes, and look at the section this were this was written. This applies to the character generation tables (where skill is not indicated with any assigned level).

if that were true, then everyone I know who has ever played CT, including the guy that got me into RPGs by getting me to roll up a Traveller character in the first place, has been doing this wrong for 30 years.

That's acutally not that surprising anymore, given the last couple of days under this topic and the recent one in the CT forum. There seems to be several people who have played Traveller for a decade or two or three who don't quite know the rules as well as they think they do.

That has been a point I've made recently.

 

[GypsyComet]

There seems to be several people who have played Traveller for a decade or two or three who don't quite know the rules as well as they think they do.

That has been a point I've made recently.

I'll stand by my interpretation, as I came by it honestly:

RANK AND SERVICE
Some skills accrue to a character automatically (without the necessity of throwing for them, and without using up eligibility) by virtue of a specific service or a specific rank. The rank and service skills table indicates the specific eligibilities which result in these acquisitions. These skills are acquired in addition to those presently held, and add to expertise levels in the normal manner. This table should be consulted during each term of service, and the skills added to the character as soon as he becomes eligible for them.

(Book 1, First Edition, Fifth Printing, copyright 1977; page 23; and physically in hand by the way)

The table referred to in the text is embedded in that section of text, and uses exactly the same notation seen years later in TTB:

Navy Captain . . . . . . +1 Social
Navy Admiral . . . . . . +1 Social
Marine . . . . . . . . . . . .Cutlass-1
Marine Lieutenant . . Revolver-1
Army . . . . . . . . . . . Rifle-1
Army Lieutenant . . . . . . SMG-1
Merchant 1st Officer . . . Pilot-1
Scout . . . . . . . . . . . . . Pilot-1

So.

 

[GypsyComet]

As this discussion seems to have unearthed another of those "lost" changes within CT, I've replicated the text quote in the "Lost Rules" thread in the CT area.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'll stand by my interpretation, as I came by it honestly:

That's irrefutable evidence, Gypsy. I stand corrected, and I will correct the CT thread.

I don't own a copy of first edition, but I've seen many sections of it here and there. A lot of Traveller was done "wonky" then. It explains why the skill level is there, since it was pasted from first edition.

Tell me, in first edition, are the skill levels listed in the chargen tables too?

 

[GypsyComet]

That's irrefutable evidence, Gypsy. I stand corrected, and I will correct the CT thread.

I don't own a copy of first edition, but I've seen many sections of it here and there. A lot of Traveller was done "wonky" then. It explains why the skill level is there, since it was pasted from first edition.

Tell me, in first edition, are the skill levels listed in the chargen tables too?

Nope. Those tables are also pretty similar to later versions. Name of skill only, with the stat increases labeled as "+1 Stren" etc. Basically, that disambiguating sentence was removed to make the rule fit under the skills table in later editions (it is in the book text after the skills descriptions in 1st ed), but little else changed. The layout was a lot simpler, as GDW was only one step beyond a typewriter at that point. The well-packed chargen tables pages came later.

 

[Supplement Four]

Nope. Those tables are also pretty similar to later versions. Name of skill only, with the stat increases labeled as "+1 Stren" etc. Basically, that disambiguating sentence was removed to make the rule fit under the skills table in later editions (it is in the book text after the skills descriptions in 1st ed), but little else changed. The layout was a lot simpler, as GDW was only one step beyond a typewriter at that point. The well-packed chargen tables pages came later.

Read my comment in the Lost Rules thread. Dan and I found a rule just over the last two days that was changed between Book 2 and TTB...one sentence...that completely changes the Experience Rule. Someone deliberately changed that wording to change the rule.

There was an effort to decrease character skills during the time of the second edition. We know this because the Experience Limit (max skills = INT + EDU) was added to the game late in the second edition.

What if this clarifying sentence was omitted not for space reasons but as an effort to limit character skills?

If you go through all the books where Automatic Skills are discussed (including the Alien books), you'll notice that the wording is changed a few times--and every time, the sentence can be intepreted as I interpreted the rule earlier in the thread (that the Auto Skills do not add to a skill if the character already has that skill).

This could very well be a rule change between first and second edition.

 

[Supplement Four]

This could very well be a rule change between first and second edition.

For example, we know that it only takes a few modifiers to break the 2D6 system. This is most probably the main reason the Experience Limit was retrofitted into the game (and, remember, the Experience Limit is the total number of skills or skill levels, discounting Skill-0 skills).

Thus, I can most definitely see one of the GDW designers, as they were moving into the second edition, say something like this:

"If someone is creating an Army character and already has SMG-3...if they make lieutenant, it's a whopping SMG-4 because of the automatic skill list.

"Let's change that. We'll let them get SMG-1 if they don't already have it, but let's not let them raise the skill if they already have it. We'll do that for all the automatic skills.

"And, we can do that simply by taking out this one sentence..."



I mean, wording in sentences have been changed on the automatic skills more than once. At any time the levels could have been removed, leaving just the name of the skill sans the level, like the rest of chargen.

Yet, they chose to leave the level attached.

I think this is worth pondering.

 

[mike wightman]

Sorry S4 but the changing to the language in the revised editions predates the skill cap idea by a couple of years.

Also in revised edition (copyright 1981) scouts are given more skills than in 1st edition - not something you do if you are limiting skills.

MT went as far as to grant basic characters even more skill role chances per term, so the designers intent was to raise the skill total of basic characters to match those of advanced.

Finally if you check 1001 Characters you can find 1 term characters with lvl2 in automatic skills.

 

[Supplement Four]

Sorry S4 but the changing to the language in the revised editions predates the skill cap idea by a couple of years.

I know, but that doesn't mean they didn't make the Automatic Skills change first, followed by the Experience Limit a couple of years later.

lso in revised edition (copyright 1981) scouts are given more skills than in 1st edition - not something you do if you are limiting skills.

They also have the low survival rate, and the game designers were expecting people to use the Survival Rule as it was intended.

This means that any suriving player character Scout will probably only have one or two terms--going longer usually means death. The two skills per term brings them up to par with the other characters who had an easier go at Survival and ended up with more skills because they stayed in the career longer.

A two-term Scout gets 4 skills, not couting extras, buy getting 2 on each term. A three-term Merchant gets 4 skills, not counting extras, by getting 2 on the first term and 1 each on terms two and three.

Make sense?

MT went as far as to grant basic characters even more skill role chances per term, so the designers intent was to raise the skill total of basic characters to match those of advanced.

MT, as you know was written by different people (DGP instead of GDW). And, they carried over the Experience Limit to use with that game. And, read the section on Automatic Skills where its says the character gets "that skill"....again, this could easily be read as "that specific skill at that specific level".

Finally if you check 1001 Characters you can find 1 term characters with lvl2 in automatic skills.

Why is this a point? So, a character joins the Army, automatically getting Rifle-1 from the Automatic Skills list. Then, he gets two skills for his first term, rolling Gun Combat once. The character decides to raise Rifle-1 to Rifle-2. The second skill would be some other skill. Do that, and what I'm suggesting is still valid.

 

[Gruffty]

Yes I saw that, but it doesn't answer the question of is the rank skill an add or just a skill-1 total. IF the example had given him Pilot-1 (rolled as skill) before his promotion to 1st Officer then it would have answered the question, either by bumping or not his Pilot-1 to Pilot-2.

Right, I understand what you mean.

I brought this aspect up because it's relevant to both CT and MGT (and even MT) so I thought I'd get some clarity on it here.

However, it seems there is no clarity to be had (well not yet, anyway! :rofl.

 

[Allensh]

Has anyone thought of firing off an e-mail to Loren Wiseman on this subject?

EDIT: I just did. I'll let you know if I get a reply any time soon.

Allen

 

[far-trader]

Has anyone thought of firing off an e-mail to Loren Wiseman on this subject?

"I fear the great old ones too much to casually pester them with mere mortal concerns

Besides, the few times I have attempted to communicate with the gods of creation outside of their temples I've had little luck getting an answer."



Which is my way of saying, no it didn't occur to me, but then I think it's something they don't need to be bothered about and may not recall anyway. As well they have their own differences in how the rules are meant to be applied (as they should, and so should we all, can I get a "so should we all"? Louder people, with more conviction! "SO SHOULD WE ALL!" ).


And to be sure I have had some communication one-on-One and it was good, but I have also had some go unanswered. Busy people the old gods are, best not to pester them repeatedly :smirk:

But I hope you get an answer and will be interested in what it is. Not that it will likely change my mind, but it might.

 

[mike wightman]

Why is this a point? So, a character joins the Army, automatically getting Rifle-1 from the Automatic Skills list. Then, he gets two skills for his first term, rolling Gun Combat once. The character decides to raise Rifle-1 to Rifle-2. The second skill would be some other skill. Do that, and what I'm suggesting is still valid.

It's not the army career characters I would use as an example, look at some of the 1 term marines, only way to have cutlass 2 after 1 term in the marines after failing commission and promotion is to have the cutlass automatic and a cutlass roll on the table.

There are other examples too.

 

[Allensh]

Apparently, as seen in the other thread in the CT section, this issue has been resolved.

On to more important things...like how many Hivers can dance on the head of a pin

Allen

 

[mike wightman]

Whatever number they tell you, you are going to believe it was your answer anyway...