CT vs. MGT Character Gen

[mike wightman]

I'm with you there. And I feel the character creation system supports that style very well...as did CT's when you got the Citizens supplement involved as well.

Allen

Seconded/thirded.

I prefer the tramp trader, even the ship-less traveller version of a campaign.

I really like that MgT character generation allows players to work together in their background stories and rewards them for doing so.

I'm also happy with extra careers MgT gives in the basic rules.

 

[far-trader]

...

Discussing MgT alongside CT is a mark of respect in my book.

And a fair nod to how well they did in re-making CT imo. Sure there are differences and irritations, but that each has something to gain from the other seems to be the case.

 

[mike wightman]

The more I read and actually use MgT the more impressed I get with it. Sure there are flaws, and my house rules are better , but it's a better version than TNE or T4 in my book

The High Guard previews have me waiting with baited breath...

 

[aramis]

I'm, overall, impressed by the CGen, T&C, and ships.

I was more impressed by ships in the playtest draft 3.2... the power point system was really great, and gave ship combat a feel very close to Gorrilla Games' Battlestations. The lack of movement rules was suboptimal, but I just stuck in Mayday... and had an excellent (ok, slightly slow) combat system for ships.

I do feel, however, that in general, what I've seen all has a very rushed feel; this seems endemic to Mongoose, not just their traveller line. As in, not quite taking the time to do it right, and accepting Good when it could easily have been very good or even Great. CGen got the time it needed. Combat didn't. Ship deckplans didn't, and so an update was forthcoming.

 

[Allensh]

I'm, overall, impressed by the CGen, T&C, and ships.

I was more impressed by ships in the playtest draft 3.2... the power point system was really great, and gave ship combat a feel very close to Gorrilla Games' Battlestations. The lack of movement rules was suboptimal, but I just stuck in Mayday... and had an excellent (ok, slightly slow) combat system for ships.

I do feel, however, that in general, what I've seen all has a very rushed feel; this seems endemic to Mongoose, not just their traveller line. As in, not quite taking the time to do it right, and accepting Good when it could easily have been very good or even Great. CGen got the time it needed. Combat didn't. Ship deckplans didn't, and so an update was forthcoming.

I understand what you are saying and even agree. Some of that, I feel, happened because people complained about parts of the playtest doc and it was rewritten somewhat late, so there wasn't as much time to tweak it. I liked the power system too, although some of the values could have used a bit of adjustment. I liked the Timing/Effect system too. But I do think that what they have now (deckplans aside) is pretty good and compatible with CT to the point where I can and do use CT materials with MGT a lot.

Allen

 

[Supplement Four]

I do feel, however, that in general, what I've seen all has a very rushed feel; this seems endemic to Mongoose, not just their traveller line. As in, not quite taking the time to do it right, and accepting Good when it could easily have been very good or even Great.

I have to agree with Wil. This is one of the main reasons I dislike MGT so. It's sloppy, and it doesn't persuade me from jumping from CT.

Had MGT taken their time and written something brilliant, they'd probably have an even bigger success on their hands.

Instead, milktoast is what we got.

I understand why so many people like MGT. It is a better version of Traveller than what we've been getting (GT, T4, TNE...even T20 since the d20 system is such a stretch for many Traveller players). For the player who doesn't have a lot of CT, MGT is a fine choice.

But, it's not better than CT. It could have been, had they taken the time to do it "right", but they didn't...and it's not.

I understand what you are saying and even agree. Some of that, I feel, happened because people complained about parts of the playtest doc and it was rewritten somewhat late, so there wasn't as much time to tweak it.

Mongoose is behind schedule all the time. Some items on some game lines are a year behind. If they can do that, why couldn't they have taken their time and written Traveller the way it should have been written?

I mean, they didn't even live up to their own promises of having the game compatible with T5. Remember? MGT was supposed to be a "lite" version of T5, with compatible rules?

It's like that idea got sucked out the airlock because they were rushing the game.

Heck, I watched 'em rush out the game. "This is good enough! Send it out!"

 

[Allensh]

I mean, they didn't even live up to their own promises of having the game compatible with T5. Remember? MGT was supposed to be a "lite" version of T5, with compatible rules?

Given what I've seen of T5, I don't think compatibility with it is a positive thing. I'm glad they chose to hew closer to the original game. I think they felt they would have a bigger chance of success doing that.

I'm thinking they probably did want to be compatible with T5...until they saw T5.

And while you seem to think MGT isn't that successful, the evidence does not support this...but we've been over this before.

This might surprise you...or maybe not...but the fact that you don't like MGT is really not a big deal to me. You have your game, and you're happy with it. I, for various reasons, was not, and I like MGT. That's just fine.

Allen

 

[atpollard]

I have an MGT vs CT character generation question ...

I have heard statistics about the number of skills posessed by an MGT character falling above CT Basic Chargen and below CT Advanced Chargen (and Megatraveller Chargen). Yet the actual MGT characters that I see on-line seem FAR above the 'average' values quoted in the statistics.
Has anyone else observed 'actual' skill levels far in excess of the 'averages'?

I was very familiar with this phenomenon in CT AdvChargen, where one year could result in no skill (for a failed skill roll) or 6 skills (for some good rolls at a 'specialty school'). Since a character could honestly roll 1 skill or 6 skills in the same time period, it was easy to find a character who beat the statistical average.
From those who use MGT Chargen, do you find similarly 'super' characters fairly common? Or are players rolling suspiciously lucky?

For all of MGT Chargen's deserved praise, this was my greatest 'personal dislike' with CT Adv. Chargen and MegaTraveller - and it makes me reluctant to embrace MGT.

 

[Allensh]

MGT characters do get more skills than CT characters but I don't think they are "super characters". In the games I have run I seem to get a lot of characters with between 7-10 zero level skills, four to six level 1 skills and 2-3 level 2 or 3 skills...rarely does it go above that. It also depends on how may terms people try to take. I cap terms at 7 unless a character is required to serve more (MGT suggests a cap of 6), and about half my group tries to get 7...but some of my players fear the aging rolls so they generally stop around 4 to 5 terms. They want that pension, but they don't like having a 4 END

Some of it will depend on what events the characters get. the average for us seems to be 1.5 skill levels (not counting zero level skills) per term served, but some get more skills from events so they go a bit higher.

Characters also get basically 1-2 "free" skills using the skill packages (pgs 37-38) and the connections rules but these are easily ignored if the GM feels like it.

I myself am quite happy with the amount of skills given.

Allen

 

[atpollard]

Some of it will depend on what events the characters get. the average for us seems to be 1.5 skill levels (not counting zero level skills) per term served, but some get more skills from events so they go a bit higher.

Thank you for the response.

Concerning the above statement, have you encountered many characters with 3 skill levels (not counting zero level skills) per term served? That's close to what I've seen on-line and wondered how 'typical' (even if it is not 'average') that might be. MegaTraveller generated those types of characters all the time with even the MT Basic Chargen capable of 4+ skills in a good term (although the 'average' was closer to 2 skills per term).

I am just trying to get a feel for the system and what to expect for MGT characters. With PbP on-line games, characters from multiple systems are common and I want to get a feel for what to realisticly expect and when the Character needs an S painted on his chest because he just rolled the skill equivalent of all 12's for attributes. (sure it can happen - it has a 1 in 2 billion chance - so there should be up to 3 people on the earth who actually fit those scores)

 

[Jamus]

I have to agree with Wil. This is one of the main reasons I dislike MGT so. It's sloppy, and it doesn't persuade me from jumping from CT.

I use all my old CT books with MGT. I guess I didnt really jump ship from CT if you look at it that way. CT was a great system for its time but had become so dated and in need of an update and stream lining that an upgrade was needed. The thing that I think is strange is that at this point no one who plays traveller is playing the same game. By the time you factor in all the house rules everyone was playing custom traveller and not classic traveller.

 

[aramis]

I suspect a couple mistakes in their CGen. MGT, at least according to my copy, grants fewer max skills than CT even.

There is no 1st term bonus
Each term grants one roll.
Successful advancement gets one roll.
Commissioning DOES NOT GRANT A SKILL ROLL.
Events usually grant 1 skill level; a few grant a stat point and a skill level.

CT gives a non officer of 1 per term, +1 for the character, and officer rate of 1.38 (σ=0.216)

Detailed analysis gives an agerage officer rate in MT of 2.77 (σ=.307)and non-officer of 2.0 (σ=0.201), counting bonus skills, per term, plus 1.03 to 1.9 or so per character, plus 2-5 level 0 skills.

Detailed analysis of MGT gives mean 2 (σ=.17) per term, plus 2 levels and 5-11 level 0 skills for the character.

.XLS of calculations

 

[atpollard]

I suspect a couple mistakes in their CGen. MGT, at least according to my copy, grants fewer max skills than CT even.

If I follow correctly, then each character has 3 chances per term to gain 1 skill (skill roll, advancement roll, event roll) - so 3 skills in 1 term is 'possible' for 'joe lucky'.

In addition to his 'rolled' skills, Joe can SELECT 2 skills for knowing other people and 1 skill from the 'group pack'.

Would I be correct in assuming that a player could, theoretically, generate a 1 term / 6 skill 'joe lucky' as the absolute 'best case'?
Or a 2 term / 9 skill 'joe lucky'?

Are there zero level skills based on homeworld?
[like MegaTraveller had.]

Are additional skills possible in the 'muster out' rules?
[like CT multiple weapons allowed the 'weapon' to be changed to a 'weapon skill'.]

 

[aramis]

If I follow correctly, then each character has 3 chances per term to gain 1 skill (skill roll, advancement roll, event roll) - so 3 skills in 1 term is 'possible' for 'joe lucky'.

In addition to his 'rolled' skills, Joe can SELECT 2 skills for knowing other people and 1 skill from the 'group pack'.

Would I be correct in assuming that a player could, theoretically, generate a 1 term / 6 skill 'joe lucky' as the absolute 'best case'?
Or a 2 term / 9 skill 'joe lucky'?

Are there zero level skills based on homeworld?
[like MegaTraveller had.]

Are additional skills possible in the 'muster out' rules?
[like CT multiple weapons allowed the 'weapon' to be changed to a 'weapon skill'.]

Absolute best case:
1 for term (auto)
1 for advancement success
2 for event granting skill
2 for connections
6x level 0 service skills in term 1
5x level 0 background skills
+1 Level from weapon benefit conversion

For additional terms, max is +5, and (in core rules) only for scientists; the other "double receipts" are mandated stat+skill, and pretty rare, effectively making it max+4.

If people are taking commission skills, that will add an extra. Some people might also be consolidating two level-0 receipts to a level 1, even tho it is explicitly forbidden

Worst case:
1 for term going to attribute.
5x level 0 service skills
1x level 0 background skills

 

[Allensh]

Thank you for the response.

Concerning the above statement, have you encountered many characters with 3 skill levels (not counting zero level skills) per term served? That's close to what I've seen on-line and wondered how 'typical' (even if it is not 'average') that might be. MegaTraveller generated those types of characters all the time with even the MT Basic Chargen capable of 4+ skills in a good term (although the 'average' was closer to 2 skills per term).

I am just trying to get a feel for the system and what to expect for MGT characters. With PbP on-line games, characters from multiple systems are common and I want to get a feel for what to realisticly expect and when the Character needs an S painted on his chest because he just rolled the skill equivalent of all 12's for attributes. (sure it can happen - it has a 1 in 2 billion chance - so there should be up to 3 people on the earth who actually fit those scores)

I haven't seen very many with 3 per term and that would require getting a skill from an event every term, not counting any gained from the skill packages if those are used. Generally, if you get an advancement every term (and every character we have created usually misses at least one), you'd have two and maybe one from events every 2 terms or so..this is just my estimate though, and I'm sure others have had different experiences.

Allen

 

[Allensh]

I have to confess that I thought commission did give a skill level; I'm going to check on that but if you are correct (and you probably are) that would bring down the average a bit.

Allen

 

[aramis]

The commission itself doesn't. The resultant rank might.

here's the statistical data summary for MGT:
Min 1.6141975308642
Mean 2.00102880658436
Max 2.27083333333333
σ=0.169280748182117

Note that I didn't include rank skills. for Joe 1 termer, that ups the max to 8 (Rank 0 and rank 1, in the army, both carry skills, but the army has no 2 skill events; the scholars have no rank 0 skills.)

and we forgot the package skill: every character gets one extra skill from the group's package. (Actually, in the playtest, the package skills were not available to 2 of the 7 characters... the skills they had available to them by the time picks were made were skills they had at level 3+ already...)

So, to check: Subtract 1 skill for package, 2 for contacts, subtract rank skills, and divide by terms. If it is below 1.25, the character had a run of bad luck or took lots of stats; if above 2.5, it's pretty lucky, and if above 2.75, I'd be worried about cheating. At 3, I'd reject the character unless I'd been watching CGen.

 

[Allensh]

I went through 17 characters in my folder that have been made for various games of MGT I have run recently (some dating back to the playtest). The average is a bit higher than I expected, but since I have given out skills for commissions and have used the skill packages, I don't see them as being outrageous at all.

The lowest number was 1.3 skills per term (9 skill levels in 7 terms) and the highest was 3.4 skill levels per term (25 levels in 7 terms). The average comes out to 2.2 (90 terms, 202 levels). I did not count number of skills, just skill levels for skills of level 1 or higher.

One thing that influences this count is how many rolls a character takes on the Personal Development tables. I have one player who takes at least half his rolls on that table, trying to pump his stats as much as he can. His characters have less levels than the ones who never use that table at all.

There were two characters out of the 17 I looked at who had 3 skill levels per term or higher, and two with 2.6 skill levels.

My earlier statements were based on a gut estimate (and wouldn't have been far off if I had not given out skills for commissioning, I think). These are the true numbers of a somewhat small sample.

EDIT: I did completely forget about automatic skills due to ranks as well although since those are granted by chargen, they probably would count.

Allen

 

[aramis]

If you don't mind, would you rerun the numbers subtracting rank skills, package skills, and connections skills, Allen?

It will tell us a lot more (and put it in light to compare to the numbers I generated by calculation, which exclude those same).

 

[Allensh]

If you don't mind, would you rerun the numbers subtracting rank skills, package skills, and connections skills, Allen?

It will tell us a lot more (and put it in light to compare to the numbers I generated by calculation, which exclude those same).

Certainly. I don't have record on all of this but looking at the character sheets, and taking into account the extra skill for commissioning that I gave out, it works out to 155 skill levels. We actually haven't used the connections rule; I just give everybody one level in a skill of their choice as per the solo generation rule.

On the average, half the characters would have two package skills and around half would get 1, given the size of our group, and there were 17 characters looked at so those would be subtracted as well, I estimate that at about 25 levels worth.
Allen