D6 vs D20/Polyhedrals
- Thread starter Gruffty
- Start date
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Gruffy, in your CT example the barn should have the no armour modifier, it's a feature of the to hit matrices that a target in armour is harder to hit, while a target with no armour is much easier to hit (usually).
If you apply the +5 then the shotgun can't miss a barn wall at 2m
If you apply the +5 then the shotgun can't miss a barn wall at 2m
Hey Gruffty,
T20 levels show a character's abilities in a "Class" of persuits. Most of the T20 classes map nicely to the CT careers (A navy class, a scouts class, etc.)
Levels are gained through experience points. When you get enough XP, you automatically improve to the next level. It's possible to "Multiclass" by putting the levels into different classes, thereby diversifying your skills and abilities. For example, A level 4 scout gains a level. He could take his next level in scout (Becoming a Scout 5) or he could put his next level in rogue, becoming Scout 4/Rogue 1.
Experience points can be gained in play (awarded by the Referee for completing adventures, training, etc) and are awarded in character generation through the prior history system. Prior history with terms, services, duty assignments is rolled similar to CT (with complexity somewhere inbetween the basic and detailed (merc, HG) systems). Instead of awarding skill points directly as in CT, the rolls in T20 prior history award XP. At the end of each term, XP are totaled up and the character gains any levels he is entitled to by his new XP total. Then he can do a new term or stop and put his character in play. Age, military rank, etc are based on terms served, not level.
There's a PDF document in the eLibrary section called "T20 Lite" which goes over much of this stuff, I think. You might give it a look.
T20 levels show a character's abilities in a "Class" of persuits. Most of the T20 classes map nicely to the CT careers (A navy class, a scouts class, etc.)
Levels are gained through experience points. When you get enough XP, you automatically improve to the next level. It's possible to "Multiclass" by putting the levels into different classes, thereby diversifying your skills and abilities. For example, A level 4 scout gains a level. He could take his next level in scout (Becoming a Scout 5) or he could put his next level in rogue, becoming Scout 4/Rogue 1.
Experience points can be gained in play (awarded by the Referee for completing adventures, training, etc) and are awarded in character generation through the prior history system. Prior history with terms, services, duty assignments is rolled similar to CT (with complexity somewhere inbetween the basic and detailed (merc, HG) systems). Instead of awarding skill points directly as in CT, the rolls in T20 prior history award XP. At the end of each term, XP are totaled up and the character gains any levels he is entitled to by his new XP total. Then he can do a new term or stop and put his character in play. Age, military rank, etc are based on terms served, not level.
There's a PDF document in the eLibrary section called "T20 Lite" which goes over much of this stuff, I think. You might give it a look.
I have one question (if anyone knows off the top of their head):
In AD&D, you have a multi-class restriction that penalizes XP gain if you have a large discrepancy in multi-class levels. So I can be a Bard/Illusionist/Fighter/Belly Dancer 1/1/2/2 and not suffer any adverse effects, but if I was 1/1/1/3, I'd be penalized (20% is it?).
Does T20 have a similar theory, or can you be a Rogue 4/Scout 1 without impeding your future ability to gain XP?
Just curious (I'm not sure if that was OGL or AD&D and I think it is there to prevent people from rushing off to be Fighter 1\Thief 1\Mage 15 or other exploitive combos).
In AD&D, you have a multi-class restriction that penalizes XP gain if you have a large discrepancy in multi-class levels. So I can be a Bard/Illusionist/Fighter/Belly Dancer 1/1/2/2 and not suffer any adverse effects, but if I was 1/1/1/3, I'd be penalized (20% is it?).
Does T20 have a similar theory, or can you be a Rogue 4/Scout 1 without impeding your future ability to gain XP?
Just curious (I'm not sure if that was OGL or AD&D and I think it is there to prevent people from rushing off to be Fighter 1\Thief 1\Mage 15 or other exploitive combos).
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Nope, no xp penalty for multi-classing in T20. Don't recall the exact page but it's there.
Shadowdancer
SOC-14 1K
That's correct for D&D. But in T20, a 1st level character can kill a 10th level character with one shot. That's built into the combat system.
A 10th level character in T20 would still be more likely to hit a 1st level character in combat rather than vice versa. But a 1st level character can still give a 10th level a good fight. Especially if it's a 1st level combat-oriented character against a 10th level non-combat-oriented character. Which reflects real life. You would expect a Marine, after undergoing basic training, being able to outshoot and outfight a tenured college professor.
Gruffty
SOC-14 1K
Thanks, Vanguard, already donwloaded it a while back. It was whilst looking at T20 Lite that I decided to seek opinions.
I think it's invaluable to hear how these game mechanics work in practice from people who use the system and know how it works.
Thank you, everyone, for your responses - you've all been extremely helpful and informative. I shall give T20 serious consideration.
To pt levels in t20 does not matter much. Back to Frank
Acne face Frank at 18 Bab is +2 (one for his merc level 1 for a feat) his con is 14 Con and lifeblood are the same since he human.
Veteran Frank at 35 Bab is +6 Con 14.
So if both Franks shoot each other in the face and do max damage both are going down and hoping 911 has been called.
Acne face Frank at 18 Bab is +2 (one for his merc level 1 for a feat) his con is 14 Con and lifeblood are the same since he human.
Veteran Frank at 35 Bab is +6 Con 14.
So if both Franks shoot each other in the face and do max damage both are going down and hoping 911 has been called.
Unless of course he was teaching at "Life University", the "School of Hard Knocks" or "Imperial Military College".
Seriously, it is good to hear that the high level character may have better skills and feats (be harder to sneak up on, spot things more easily, be a better shot, etc) but that the low level character, if he gets the right shot off, can still cause the high level character very much grief.
That is one thing about Traveller:
You start the game with a character who knows his arse from his elbows, has life experience at his beck and call, but you are still mortal. To quote a famous someone "Quantity has a Quality all of its own." A group of low level peons that are armed can still spoil the day of a higher level party, unlike in AD&D where they will tend (normally) to get a beating laid on them.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Ah, but that's more down to the magnitude of the skills involved rather than the character level isn'it it? The 10th lvl PC has higher level in firearms than the 1st lvl PC. The level in itself isn't what makes the difference.
Plus in D&D there's a lot more emphasis on melee combat, and hit points work differently. In D&D you can get 12th level fighters surviving repeated blows that realistically should kill them outright - in T20 that wouldn't happen though because of the Lifeblood system. (which IIRC is like Vitality Points and Wound Points in D20M or Star Wars).
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Attack rolls in D&D and T20 are based on "base attack bonus" - or BAB for short.
This is a feature of class and level, not individual skills.
There are no individual weapon skills in D&D or T20 - there are feats which allow proficiency in a chosen type of weapon, and a couple of other feats which can grant small bonuses to the BAB for focussing on a weapon.
A first level marine, with a Dex of 14 and weapon focus feat would have +4 to hit.
A tenth level academic, merchant, or professional with a Dex of 12 would be at +3 to hit.
The lifeblood system is, as you say, the great leveller. Well worth adapting to a D&D game for a more gritty fantasy game
This is a feature of class and level, not individual skills.
There are no individual weapon skills in D&D or T20 - there are feats which allow proficiency in a chosen type of weapon, and a couple of other feats which can grant small bonuses to the BAB for focussing on a weapon.
A first level marine, with a Dex of 14 and weapon focus feat would have +4 to hit.
A tenth level academic, merchant, or professional with a Dex of 12 would be at +3 to hit.
The lifeblood system is, as you say, the great leveller. Well worth adapting to a D&D game for a more gritty fantasy game
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
One other difference in T20 combat compared with D&D that I like is the armour rating rule (bonus to AC and damage reduction).
There is one thing that should be added to T20 combat, IMHO, and that is a defence bonus that rises with level like in some of the other D20 games.
My reasoning for this is that in D&D the high hit points of a tenth level character represents in part the ability of that character to lessen the effect of a blow that would have caused serious injury to a low level character. Thus a ten point wound that would have gutted a first level PC will only cause a light wound to a high level character (10 damage to 6 hit points compared with 10 damage to 55 hit points).
There is one thing that should be added to T20 combat, IMHO, and that is a defence bonus that rises with level like in some of the other D20 games.
My reasoning for this is that in D&D the high hit points of a tenth level character represents in part the ability of that character to lessen the effect of a blow that would have caused serious injury to a low level character. Thus a ten point wound that would have gutted a first level PC will only cause a light wound to a high level character (10 damage to 6 hit points compared with 10 damage to 55 hit points).
M
Malenfant
Guest
D'oh. Oh yeah... forgot about the BAB thing... jeez, I only stopped playing D&D a couple of weeks ago and already I've forgotten the system
"...one thing that should be added to T20 combat...D&D the high hit points...represents in part the ability of that character to lessen the effect of a blow..."
I can see this in melee, when you're in armour, or even out of it; high levels of skill at arms makes you harder to hit (think of the example of an olympic fencer versus a club player, or a world champion featherweight boxer against pretty much anyone, unarmed). I'd rather see it as feats which create a 'miss chance' or allow a 'dodge' in melee, though, because I can't see anyone's 'skill and experience' reducing the effect of a bullet wound or laser burn.
If the 'dodge' feat only avoided the lifeblood damage, that would begin to represent the fatigue element of having to avoid attacks.
I can see this in melee, when you're in armour, or even out of it; high levels of skill at arms makes you harder to hit (think of the example of an olympic fencer versus a club player, or a world champion featherweight boxer against pretty much anyone, unarmed). I'd rather see it as feats which create a 'miss chance' or allow a 'dodge' in melee, though, because I can't see anyone's 'skill and experience' reducing the effect of a bullet wound or laser burn.
If the 'dodge' feat only avoided the lifeblood damage, that would begin to represent the fatigue element of having to avoid attacks.
Chuck Anumia
SOC-14 1K
At 2m? Sure!Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Casey:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by cweiskircher:
so Casey can hit the broad side of a Barn?...Cool
</font>[/QUOTE]...with a shotgun. </font>[/QUOTE]________________________________________________Ok, now the next question is...does he do any damage to the barn?
What would the diffrence be between T20 and CT?
For T20 objects have structural integrity (SI) points. Amount of damage done is as per lifeblood damage. Destroying an object requires an amount of SI damage equal to the object's total SI. There are also rules for penetrating and breaching materials to break environmental integrity and damage anything beyond the material.
SI and AR for materials and common objects is determined by a nice chart or two. Depending on what type of barn you're talking about I'd say about 2 AR and SI 15 for the wall. A bulkhead is AR 10 SI 50 by comparison.
So taking the first gunshot from my earlier example the barn would take 8 SI. Knocked some small holes in the barn wall but didn't breach it. The critical would result in 21 damage and a new door.
As for hitting objects in T20 it's 10 + size modifier + Dex. A barn would have a Dex of 0 (-5) and -2 for being inanimate. If T20 Gruffty lines up the shot (full round) he also gets a +5 for ranged weapons (a melee weapon would be an automatic hit). Since the barn is over 1.5m x 1.5m I'd say it rates a size modifier of Huge which is -2.
So 10-2-7 = 1. T20 Gruffty’s almost certain to hit the barn. In a combat or other stressful situation or for flavor I’d call for a roll to see if a critical was made or a 1 for a miss. Personally I make 1's in combat more than just misses but that's a houserule.
No idea on CT. Books 1-3 doesn't even have armor on vehicles or ships or what happens when someone fires a laser rifle at a g-carrier IIRC.
[edit] clarified 2nd to last paragraph and added last paragraph [/edit]
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
In CT you could treat the barn wall the same as a starship interior wall.
100 points of damage from an explosive or an energy weapon will produce a man sized hole. 1000 points of damage from a slug thrower is required to do the same.
100 points of damage from an explosive or an energy weapon will produce a man sized hole. 1000 points of damage from a slug thrower is required to do the same.
Oh right. Tucked away in Supplement 7 Traders & Gunboats and only for starship interior walls and bulkheads.
4Dx42 = 1008. Hmmm I think I put the barn wall SI a little low and might take the AR up a notch. Main thing is the guidelines are in the main T20 book.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I'd treat a shotgun round as an explosive for this purpose (making a man sized hole), which is a more reasonable 5 shots...
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Well, I think a real explosive would create more than a man-sized hole with 100 points of damage. I would say that the barn wall would need to be recognized as weaker than a starship interior wall.
(BTW, that must be an airtight bulkhead they are talking about, not just a partition 'tween staterooms.)
(BTW, that must be an airtight bulkhead they are talking about, not just a partition 'tween staterooms.)
