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Darrian TL16 fleet

The Darrians might have been preparing to go on an expansionist spree, and creating an instrument of policy with overwhelming power tends to stifle any argument made by the other side.
Facing conflict with who? What 'other side'?

They could have expanded and colonised the whole Spinward Marches and not come across any threat that would warrant a CruRon let alone a BatRon of TL16 warships (all of which that survived were of course starships).

They were somehow totally unaware of the Zhodani, who at best would have been TL13 at the time.
 
I'm coming to this debate very late, but it was a thought-provoking read. The key issue is determining what threat the Darrians faced that would cause them to build 18 spinal-mounted cruisers (according to MgT Darrians). Here are candidates... <snippage of interesting stuff>

We are told in AM:8, in black and white, no less than three times directly, that every one of the TL16 vessels of the relic fleet is a starship. What we are not told is their size or capabilities.

TNE stipulates that the 500t Barekdoldin class was based on the warships of the relic fleet (some were civilian vessels after all)

The MgT take on things that they were all sentient spinal armed cruisers...

just sums up early MgT material.
 
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We are told in AM:8, in black and white, no less than three times directly, that every one of the TL16 vessels of the relic fleet is a starship.

I guess you mean with this that because the world "ship" is used, they must be jump capable. Are we going for another round ;)?

As I told you many times here, there are many instances in Traveller where the Word "ships" include non jump capable vessels...

Fact is neither of us is likely to convince the other one, but, of course, we can go on...
 
I am saying it because the whole word 'starship' is used on four occasions to describe them. Just read page 24 of AM:8.
Here, once again, are the direct quotes:
Darrian's interstellar navy, generally accepted as the forefront
of any starfaring society, was characterized by tech level 16 starships,
Thus, survivability and endurance can be inferred to be two
of the characteristics that Darrian tech level 16 starships have.
Probably fewer than two dozen Darrian tech level 16 starships survive today
In addition, a small percentage of surviving Darrian tech level
16 starships were not originally of military design
 
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And we know the term starship precludes any non jump capable ship/boat/small craft...

That's why CT:TTB Starship economics section does not apply to non capable ships/boats...

That's why CT:LLB5 HG, as it has the Starship and Starship design sections, does not deal with non jump capable ships/boats/small crafts, and any such ship designed with this sistema is not a valid one

That's why T4 Starships book does not deal with non jump capable ships/boats/small crafts, and any such ship designed with this sistema is not a valid one

That's why MT:RS, as when it describes depots as

Naval depots are huge harboring areas for starships, naval personnel and supporting services (...)

A major focus for each naval depot is the maintenance of navy's starships(...)

providing in-depth training for all aspects of starship technology (...)

to tactical training in the use of starship weaponry

means that non jump capable ships/boats/small crafts are neither harbored, supported , nor serviced, nor maintained nor trained in Naval Depots...

Right?

Or we can colectivelly call all navy crafts as starships for easines of language?
 
Mike is correct, the definition of a starship is clear and remains constant:

CT LBB2'81 p12 said:
Definitions: A vessel is any interplanetary or interstellar vehicle. A ship is any vessel of 100 tons or more. A starship is a ship which has jump drives and can travel on interstellar voyages. A non-starshipis a ship without jump drives. A small craft is any vessel under 100 tons; all small craft are incapable of jump.


T5.10 B2 p30 said:
A Starship is a ship capable of travel between the stars. A ship restricted to a single star system is a spaceship, or simply a ship. Spacecraft smaller than 100 tons are called small craft, or boats.
 
[FONT=arial,helvetica]McPerth: As per threats the Darrian faced, my guess (IMMV) is that what they saw as main threat would have been either remains of the Vilani Empire going rogué, the Empire itself rebuilding and becoming expansionist or Solomani exiles as Izin fleet itself.[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica] After all, the Izin fleet had to cross the whole Vilani Empire, and they didn't know what have been of it along the years. They didn't know about the Long Night...[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]
[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]But recall that the Darrians were TL-3 when the Solomani of the Itzin Fleet contacted them during the Long Night. It was the Darrians with Solomani aid who eventually rose to TL-16. [/FONT]
 
And we know the term starship precludes any non jump capable ship/boat/small craft...
Correct.

That's why CT:TTB Starship economics section does not apply to non capable ships/boats...
If you want to extend or adapt the starship economics section - which is designed for the transport of passengers and cargos across interstellar space using jump drives - there is nothing to stop you, all that is required is there be more than one world of note in a system and you know their trade codes. The system can then be tweaked to do whatever you want with it.

That's why CT:LLB5 HG, as it has the Starship and Starship design sections, does not deal with non jump capable ships/boats/small crafts, and any such ship designed with this sistema is not a valid one
I think you may need to go and re-read High Guard...
"non-starships (without jump drives) may be constructed at the
shipyard of any class A or class B starport
"
"Non-starships (ships without jump drive, and massing 100 or more tons) are
designed in much the same manner as starships; small craft (without jump drives
and under 100 tons) follow a slightly altered procedure explained in the small craft
section beginning on page 34.
"
"Non-starships may omit the jump drives"
"Non-starships under 100 tons are considered to be small craft. Production of
small craft uses a system which differs in some details from that used for starships
and non-starships of 100 tons or more.
"
there are three more but I think I have proven my point - the definitions table on page 36 is also worth a read...
That's why T4 Starships book does not deal with non jump capable ships/boats/small crafts, and any such ship designed with this sistema is not a valid one

<snip of spurious argument>
Right?
Wrong.

Or we can colectivelly call all navy crafts as starships for easines of language?
No, we can not.
We can use the term ship to mean spaceship and/or starship, but when vessels are described specifically as starships it has a distinct meaning.
 
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p41324_76348_1491508349.jpg



While jump capable might be more accurate, I believe within the Traveller context, starships would have a functioning, or have installed, jump drive.

As regards to construction, does that mean actual manufacture, or assembly of imported parts?


Oh, and when I remember to, I term military jump capable vessels starwarships.
 
If you want to extend or adapt the starship economics section - which is designed for the transport of passengers and cargos across interstellar space using jump drives - there is nothing to stop you, all that is required is there be more than one world of note in a system and you know their trade codes. The system can then be tweaked to do whatever you want with it.

Not necessary, I was thinking more in the Barges/frame concept, as the barges do most the economic functions, but cannot use the Starship economics section (according your view) because they are not starships...

I think you may need to go and re-read High Guard...
"non-starships (without jump drives) may be constructed at the
shipyard of any class A or class B starport
"
"Non-starships (ships without jump drive, and massing 100 or more tons) are
designed in much the same manner as starships; small craft (without jump drives
and under 100 tons) follow a slightly altered procedure explained in the small craft
section beginning on page 34.
"
"Non-starships may omit the jump drives"
"Non-starships under 100 tons are considered to be small craft. Production of
small craft uses a system which differs in some details from that used for starships
and non-starships of 100 tons or more.
"
there are three more but I think I have proven my point - the definitions table on page 36 is also worth a read...

And all of this is in the Starship Construction section? there must be an error, as they are not starships (according your own arguments)...

See other ships have the Ship design section, so they can design non jump capables ships, but not small crafts, as the ship definition does not include them...

Only MT (to my knowledge) had the Craft design system, englobing all

<snip of spurious argument>
Wrong.

Exactly which ones where the spurious arguments? the ones that said the Depots cannot service non jump capable vessels because the definition only talks about Starships?

I agree Depots service every kind of naval vessel, despite the wording bein Starships, but why is this spurious when used here, but holy writ when used about the Darrian fleet?

No, we can not.
We can use the term ship to mean spaceship and/or starship, but when vessels are described specifically as starships it has a distinct meaning.

Technically you're right, but people uses to make generalizations, and so a soldier (that many times means any person in military uniform and with any rank, not only technically soldiers) may be WIA (despite if his injuries being true wounds, bruised, burns or whatever) and be interned in hospital, where the patients are commonly referred as ill, the fact they may suffer illness or other health problems (traumatic, intoxications, etc.)
 
And all of this is in the Starship Construction section?

Yes. See the first page of the "Starship Construction" chapter:
CT HG'80 p20 said:
STARSHIP DESIGN
...
Availability: Starships (with jump drives) may be constructed at the shipyard of any class A starport; non-starships (without jump drives) may be constructed at the shipyard of any class A or class B starport.

The "Starship Design" system can explicitly be used to design any ship, both starships and non-starships.


You may complain about misleading chapter names, but the content is clear.
 
At least some of the Darrian relic TL-16 warships are starships; hence the discussion about what starships are...

No one discusses this, I guess, as otherwise it would not be mobile, the discussion is which ones.

If a Tender carries 6 Raiders, only one is really a starship, while the others being warships, but not starships, but as a whole they can be seen as a Star Squadron.

If those same 6 BRs are without a tender, they'd become (or at least be seen as) Monitors, and not part of any Starfleet, but a Spacefleet.
 
WTH is this argument about? Semantics?

One of the things that puzzles me about all this issue is that most criticisms about the idea of the BRs comes from the single argument of the specific wording of the book (so, as you say, sematics, and, as said, quite weak, IMHO, as the word can well be used in a more generic way). No logics or canon (aside MgT, I’ll talk about latter) reasoning has been given.

The main setting problems thus far told are (answers are my POV):

Why should the Darrians build warships (perceived thread)?

I think we agreed the Darrians were aware they might be enemies in space, though they knew little (if at all) about their status, and as such they could have built it. No matter how far were assumed those dangers to be, the time needed to build those ships might have made it wise to build them beforehand.

Which size of ships would they build?

Most opinions here seem to agree in that no Battleships, but more in the Destroyer/Cruiser range, as they could be enough for the preceived threads and not to resource demanding.

Which kind of ships?

I guess there’s less agreement here, and, leaving aside exact books wording, IMHO their objective would mostly be defensive, with some exploration ships (probably armed too). Asper defensive fleet, I guess we mostly agree SDBs/Monitors (with some tenders(ump frames to move them, mostly if you think Darrian was the only world able to build them at this time ,the rest of the colonies being too young) would have been built, though as you need more of them than cruisers if you have to defend multiple planets, some CruDrons would also be logical

Also some jump capable ships o nthe destroyer/light Cruiser range would be logical to build for medium/long range exploration, and they were probably armed due to the perceived threats explained above.

How did they end up mothballed in the Oort Cloud?

Here’s one of my main points (and one of the more controversial ones). One of my points is that no fleet mothballs state of the art ships unless they are not needed (e.g. a demobilization after a war) . This not being clearly the case, I rule out the fact those ships were mothballed before the Maghiz.

When the Maghiz stuck, the Darrians tried to perform prevention /relief operations in most their colonies.

Most Colonies, warned In advance, took any measures they could, and I guess this means even evacuate as many population as they could. In this scenario, the idea of having about a score of state of the art jump-capable ships sitting in a mothball yard collecting dust is quite hard to swallow to me, as I guess they put every jump capable sip to duty, even obsolete ones.

OTOH, any SDB/Monitor (some of them might survive, protected by being in deep sea or Asteroids as deep reserve ,as is standard practice according most sources) cold be seen as a waste of resources, as they need personnel and maintenance resources better put to other uses, so the fact some might be mothballed for a time makes more sense to me (the fact they were so in the Oort cloud makes quite less sense, but that’s one of the “known facts”, unless a misinformation to hide their true location, maybe because there are other valuable things at the same place). The fact a handful jump ships (maybe their tenders/jump carriers, maybe of little other use if they were too specific designs) were mothballed with them is also acceptable to me)

And this is my main argument: state of the art jump capable ships in the cruiser range would not have been ignored by Maghiz era Darrians, as they were too valuable for prevention/relief duties to be neither mothballed nor forgotten about (though some might be assumed destroyed, but, unless too damaged, they would have ended up reporting for duty, mostly if they were at Darrian system itself). Even when the Darrians decided to give up, the few remaining jump capable ships were not ignored, but each planet received some and they where mothballed there.

--------------

So, can anyone discuss those reasons instead of semantics?
 
MgT view

If MgT is seen as Canon, then it becomes a powerful (decisive in fact) argument against my arguments, but IMHO it is quite against the traveller setting, at least as it was seen before its publishing (albeit retcon is accepted), and so all my arguments become a IMTU matter.

Why I see it as setting breaking?

If those ships are self-aware then we’re talking about a TL 17, not 16, fleet, and according all sources the Darrians did not reach TL17. Though some TL 17 points where achieved (it’s explicated they reached the point where antimatter became marginally profitable), I guess this would enter in the “prototypes of dubious reliability” MT:WBH talks about, not ships that could stand operational for centuries.

OTOH, it does not answer my main question of how could they end up mothballed in the Oort cloud, even reinforcing my point, as those self-aware ships, needing less crew (and so trained resources), and probably able to teach more technicians, would have been seen as even more valuable assets, not the ones to mothball (again, unless they were prototypes whose research was abandoned, but, again, those prototypes are hardly so durable).

This is aside of other implications self-aware ships (and computers at large, for what’s worth) bring to my mind and that would deserve a full thread on their own. Just to hint some:

  • How would they react to be so mothballed?
  • What view would they have about their builders?
  • Would they have their own ambitions/agenda?.
And many others…
 
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It would depend on the composition of the warships, if it veered towards a battle fleet, or one more balanced, say one third battlewagons, one third cruisers and one third minor combatants.

A peace time fleet would tend to deploy cruisers for presence and commerce protection, while keeping most of their battlewagons on slow rotation, and the minors filling the gaps.

The fact that they seemed to have hidden them, would tend to indicate either a clandestine purpose, or they Scapa Flowed or Ragnar Anchoraged them, which would likely be a battle fleet.

What constitutes the line of battle ship would depend on what the Darrians thought they would be up against, so size might vary.

And as I've always maintained, you build capital ships before a conflict, not during one.
 
It would depend on the composition of the warships, if it veered towards a battle fleet, or one more balanced, say one third battlewagons, one third cruisers and one third minor combatants.

A peace time fleet would tend to deploy cruisers for presence and commerce protection, while keeping most of their battlewagons on slow rotation, and the minors filling the gaps.

The fact that they seemed to have hidden them, would tend to indicate either a clandestine purpose, or they Scapa Flowed or Ragnar Anchoraged them, which would likely be a battle fleet.

What constitutes the line of battle ship would depend on what the Darrians thought they would be up against, so size might vary.

The fact it had a clandestine pourpose has not occurred to me before, I must admit...

Even so, I guess they would have been pressed to service once Maghiz stuck, as anuy clandestine pourpose would have been voided ,but that's an argument tht cannot be ruled out

And don' t forget by then the only ship building facilities are likely to have been in Darrian itself, so such a clandestine fleet would have been quite hard to build

As per Scapa Flow, I guess this would have been done nearer to the mai nplanet, as crews need R&R and makes supply easier.

And in any case they're said to be mothballed...

And as I've always maintained, you build capital ships before a conflict, not during one.

Fully agreed here
 
As I understand it, the British Grand Fleet disappeared from the German radar after the start of hostilities.

Scapa Flow being ideally placed to allow an interception of the Hochseeflotte if it tried to break out of the North Sea, or were dumb enough to tarry long enough within it.

The Germans were disappointed that the Royal Navy didn't go for a close blockade, and the British that the Germans wouldn't come out to play.
 
As I understand it, the British Grand Fleet disappeared from the German radar after the start of hostilities.

Scapa Flow being ideally placed to allow an interception of the Hochseeflotte if it tried to break out of the North Sea, or were dumb enough to tarry long enough within it.

The Germans were disappointed that the Royal Navy didn't go for a close blockade, and the British that the Germans wouldn't come out to play.
The German Fleet had to pass near Scapa to reach the north sea, but in Traveller, incoming fletes don't have to cross the Oort cloud to reach the main planet.

A fleet in the Oort cloud would be out of touch for too long to defend the main world in most (if not all) systems. In fact, it would be effectively on anyother system, just taking less to have notice, but probably as much time to react.
 
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