Darrian TL16 fleet

[McPerth]

This is a friendly, enjoyable discussion, quite good fun in fact.

As all discussions here should be

Sort of, the expression means I am about to say something that may shock you...

Thanks for you clarification (again, being no English native speacker, I may fail to understand some set phrases)

Not quite, I am agreeing that there may be hitherto unknown spaceships we are not told about - the relevant section begins with talking about the Darrian Interstellar Navy and there is absolutely no doubt that the ships in the TL16 relic starship/warship squadrons are indeed starships - but I think you could be right that there could be TL16 SDBs and the like which are not part of the Darrian relic TL16 Interstellar Navy Squadrons.

Then, if TL 16 warships are so valuable, what could preclude the Darrians to build some tenders for those same SDBs or monitors¹ and use them as Raiders?

This may raise the number of TL16 starfleet significantly (if we asume thsoe SDBs/montiros exist indeed)...

NOTE 1: Time ago I defined my own (not oficial) taxonomy about SDB/monitor issue. It is losely based on the CL/CA taxonomy in WWII where the main distinction was the size of their main batteries (usually about 6" for CL, 8" for CA). As I am myself unable to find it, I'll repeat here for clality:

• Light SDB: only turret armed
• Heavy SDB: bay armed
• Monitor: Spinal armed

Yup, what makes more sense a couple of squadrons of ships can last a thousand years with no maintainance etc or that there is something else afoot? The author goes to great length to point out that TL15 ships wouldn't last this long and we know that the improvements from TL15 to TL16 are not as paradigm shifting as they are incremental improvements (despite my own personal wish for TL16 to be a step up the weight of Traveller canon is against me on that one - but for MTU... )

I frankly don't know how long can mothballed ships resist and yet be recoverable and recomissioned again.

As said before, though, once recovered, I guess Raiders (incluiding SDB/Monitors used as such) could be used at lower state of readiness (at least in peace times) thatn hteir tenders (that can be lower TL, and so replaceable) tan true starships, so avoiding wear and tear and making their useful life longer.

As they have already been in commission for about 700 years after their recovery, this would make Raiders likely to be in better shape, if my previous guess is right.

 

[Condottiere]

Logic would tend towards a carrier based doctrine for the Darrians, especially if they have a limited number of jump drives. Maybe their merchant fleet consisted of Heighliners.

Sine this may be more plot driven, I'd go for a more militia crewed armed merchantmen with a missile bay to engage at long range, built around the core of Dragon Princes.

 

[mike wightman]

Logic would tend towards a carrier based doctrine for the Darrians, especially if they have a limited number of jump drives.

I really don't see how, the jump drives are already part of the 'salvaged' TL16 ships. I don't understand why you would take the jump drive from a fully functioning TL16 starship to make a TL12 carrier.

Plus in CT the fighter doesn't win battles, you need a cinematic Star Wars ship combat paradigm for that.

Maybe their merchant fleet consisted of Heighliners.

Possible but extremely unlikely.

Sine this may be more plot driven, I'd go for a more militia crewed armed merchantmen with a missile bay to engage at long range, built around the core of Dragon Princes.

The Sword Worlds would defeat such a force in a week.

 

[McPerth]

The Sword Worlds would defeat such a force in a week.

If we base the combat in pure CT:HG or MT rules, and we aslo asume SW leet is buit by themselves (or fro ma TL they can maintain, any Darrian Force is likely to defeat any SW one just for the computer difference, that would give a +-4 or 5 in all to hit and penetration rolls (unless SW ships commanders have Ship tactis 9+ :devil: in CT:HG).

Even low rating missile batteries have a fine probablility to damage SW ships in this scenario (and this damage would be the same as a bull 100 dton bayss, as long they are rated 9-), while they are mostly imprevious to return fire as long as they have any agility.

 

[mike wightman]

The TL16 warships would defeat the Sword Worlds ships no problem, but he said take out their jump drives to build carriers around the jump drives

He's talking about taking the jump drives from the TL16 ships to build carriers - the best they could do c300 is a TL12 carrier. The fighters carried aboard such a craft would likewise be TL11/12 at best.

I would not cannibalise fully functioning TL16 warships to manufacture a TL12 carrier/fighter force - especially in HG'80.

 

[McPerth]

The TL16 warships would defeat the Sword Worlds ships no problem, but he said take out their jump drives to build carriers around the jump drives

He's talking about taking the jump drives from the TL16 ships to build carriers - the best they could do c300 is a TL12 carrier. The fighters carried aboard such a craft would likewise be TL11/12 at best.

I would not cannibalise fully functioning TL16 warships to manufacture a TL12 carrier/fighter force - especially in HG'80.

Neither would I.

I would build the carriers at the highest TL I could to carry the TL16 SDBs/monitors (or malfuncioning jump drives starships) if they are so valuable in combat as told.

 

[Condottiere]

It's really dependent upon when the Darrians started facing superior numbers, and had access to Imperium shipyards.

If I had a squadron of Tomcats and faced Zeroes, numbers wouldn't be an issue, since they wouldn't get past the layered defences.

Move on to Fishbeds and Badgers, backing them up with Hornets seems an attractive option.

 

[mike wightman]

It's really dependent upon when the Darrians started facing superior numbers, and had access to Imperium shipyards.

The Darrians had relic TL16 warships far superior to anything the Sword Worlds could throw at them c300. To scrap said ships to use the parts to build far inferior ships - and useless fighter carriers at that - would be a complete waste of resources.

If I had a squadron of Tomcats and faced Zeroes, numbers wouldn't be an issue, since they wouldn't get past the layered defences.

[Move on to Fishbeds and Badgers, backing them up with Hornets seems an attractive option.

Aircraft are a very poor analogy in the OTU where smallcraft are more akin to MTBs vs frigates and destroyers...

 

[Ulsyus]

If we base the combat in pure CT:HG or MT rules, and we aslo asume SW leet is buit by themselves (or fro ma TL they can maintain, any Darrian Force is likely to defeat any SW one just for the computer difference, that would give a +-4 or 5 in all to hit and penetration rolls (unless SW ships commanders have Ship tactis 9+ :devil: in CT:HG).

Even low rating missile batteries have a fine probablility to damage SW ships in this scenario (and this damage would be the same as a bull 100 dton bayss, as long they are rated 9-), while they are mostly imprevious to return fire as long as they have any agility.

I made a point like this earlier. If the differences in capability were that great, and the number of vessels in the SW navy not that many, then the sort of advantage that would be held by the Darrians would be significant. AT that point and after a stoush between them, a legend would be born...

 

[Condottiere]

As I recall, Darrians have access to Imperium shipyards, and they have them build warships to their designs, which Imperium Intelligence very carefully dissects.

One assumes they can buy cutting edge technology, though not necessarily bleeding edge ones.

They don't seem militaristic, and to make up the numbers, would probably opt for a militia system to supplement a small but highly trained professional navy.

They seem more community orientated, so less likely to be pilot jockeys, but the issue seems more if the Darrians prefer to deal with less large ships, with possibly lower teched jump drives, not cannibailizing existing ones.

Or converted large freighters.

 

[Whipsnade]

As I recall, Darrians have access to Imperium shipyards, and they have them build warships to their designs, which Imperium Intelligence very carefully dissects.

AM:8 claims Darrian design preferences show Solomani influences. As for the Imperium learning anything from Darrian blueprints, there isn't anything to learn. Both the JTAS article and AM:8 repeatedly state that what little TL16 equipment exists is not understood and RSB explains that the TL16 Darrian patrol cruiser of the Regency period is actually an Imperial design.

They don't seem militaristic, and to make up the numbers, would probably opt for a militia system to supplement a small but highly trained professional navy.

AM:8 flatly states the standing Darrian navy numbers twenty ships and that another twenty are added from planetary forces during wartime.

Reading how the Usual Suspects explain that should be fun!

 

[mike wightman]

I must be a usual suspect

AM:8 keeps using words like 'about' - there are "about twenty ships", the worlds provide "about twenty" more, also there are "less than two dozen" warships in the Navy arranged in two possibly three squadrons.

As I said in an earlier post it's almost as if the author is going out of their way to be vague.

 

[Whipsnade]

I must be a usual suspect

Believe me Mike, you're not.

As I said in an earlier post it's almost as if the author is going out of their way to be vague.

And that's why you're not. You not only understand that the statements are vague, you also understand why the statements are vague.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

AM:8 flatly states the standing Darrian navy numbers twenty ships and that another twenty are added from planetary forces during wartime.

Reading how the Usual Suspects explain that should be fun!

Since you seem to misremember the details, I suppose they would call it wrong.

 

[Condottiere]

You can try to calculate how much manpower it takes to crew and maintain the Darrian Defenders of the Universe Voltron team.

 

[McPerth]

Reading how the Usual Suspects explain that should be fun!

As I guess I'm one of them, I'll try to. At least I hope you'll have the expected fun

AM:8 flatly states the standing Darrian navy numbers twenty ships and that another twenty are added from planetary forces during wartime.

I would not say so flatly stating, as I'm not sure if the TL 16 is included in those 20 ships (plus 20 more from planetary navies) to talk about.

It's true AM8, page 19 states:

In adittion to a permanent fleet of about 20 starships. the Confederation Navy is agumenting on a rotating basis by local militias.

(...)

Every year each Naval Militia provides one or more ships, complete with crews, to the Confederation Navy. These ships help increase the total available strength of the Navy to about 40 ships

Aside from the word about, so making the numbers aproximate, not the flatly 40 you say, this also hints there are more such ships in the Naval Militias, probably trained close to Confederation Navy standards, to help in case of emergency.

It also states that those Naval Militias' 20 ships are not only added during wartime, but rotating and integral part of the Confederation Navy for standard peacetime duties.

What I'm not sure is that those permanent 20 ships are the TL16 ones...

AM8, page 19 (just before the previous quote):

The Confederation Navy patrols its borders and trade lanes (...). The Navy also provides search and rescue assitance to distressed ships

OTOH, in page 24:

The Darrian Confederation Navy high-tech squadrons are carefully hidden from prying eyes

As in this part they are talking about the TL16 ships, I asume those are not the ones performing the duties quoted above, as this would not be "carefully hiding from prying eyes"...

Also, in page 17:

The Darrian starship construction yards are capable of constructing TL15 starships

So, we can asume those are the main part of the open (not hidden) Confederation Navy, probably those "about 20 starships" told about...

And finally, in page 24:

The Darrian Navy is built arround a core of TL16 warships

As I read it, the fact they ar a core (latter specified less than two dozen) means that there are more ships too...

So, sumarizing all of this, according CT:AM8, I see the Darrian Confederation Navy organized as:

• The high-tech (TL16) core: 2-3 squadrons, numbering less that 24 whips, at elast 4 of them former merchants armed to TL14 standards (BTW, being able to produce TL15 starships, I cannot undertand why they didn't arm them to TL15 standards, but that's another question). Hidden from prying eyes.
• The "open¹" Confederatin Navy: about 20 starships performing most standard duties (patroling, S&R, etc.). probably mostly TL15 starships,
• The "auxiliary¹" Confederation Navy: ships on loan, on a yearly rotating basis, by the Naval Militias that augment the "open" Navy. About 20 of them too (one or more per Militia).
• The Naval Militias: the equivalent to the planetary navies in the 3I. Formed by the ships not loaned as "auxiliary", and kept at high state of tech and training due to their rotating terms with the Confederation Navy. Indeterminate strength.

Note 1: those names are not oficial, just given by me for lack of better world to distinguish the various parts of the DCN​

 

[Dagrill]

I McPerth has a well reasoned reconstruction of what the Darrian Fleet consists of.

When I received my T5 BBB’s I looked at what sort of TL16 Fleet the Darrians might have built. Since there was nobody near, there were no potential threats nearby so a small Fleet makes perfect sense. There are no need for battleships. Escorts, with some ‘Command’ Cruisers, supported by a few Strike Cruisers for bombarding recalcitrant worlds makes sense (to me). As the Farrian’s were into reserch several test platforms make sense as well.

TL16 gives Jump potential 7, but you could build an Improved J6 using 90% fuel, or my favourite an advanced J4 (one third size) using 80% Fuel, this gives a lot of extra room for weapons, sensors etc, compared to similar size ships, or allows smaller ships to be more effective.

There are no TL16 Sensors, so current types could be improved. Also I see an Experimental Platform with a TL19 Scanner and 1 or 2 units with Prototype Holovisor.

With regard to Weapons at TL16 you get Tractor Beams, so I see all Cruisers equipped with these, but not the Merchant conversions. Some units could have early TL17 Inducer’s and a few other’s Prototype TL18 Disruptors.

In defences you have the Black Globe, probably equipped to all Cruisers and maybe some larger Escorts, with sufficient spares to equip Merchant conversions, or larger Militia units. Some units could have Early TL17 Grav Scramblers and maybe one test unit with an Experimental Proton screen.

TL16 also provides the Model 8 computer and True AI. I’m not a fan of AI and I remember an Andromeda episode involving a rogue AI, but it makes sense there would be at least one unit and I think I’ve read about multiple AI’s, so maybe the new Darrian’s have convinced several AU’s they are on the same side as the old Darrian’s.

Overall I see the Darrian fleet as sneaky and mobile, using hit and run attacks, rather than fighting stand up engagements.

David

As I guess I'm one of them, I'll try to. At least I hope you'll have the expected fun

It also states that those Naval Militias' 20 ships are not only added during wartime, but rotating and integral part of the Confederation Navy for standard peacetime duties.

So, sumarizing all of this, according CT:AM8, I see the Darrian Confederation Navy organized as:

• The high-tech (TL16) core: 2-3 squadrons, numbering less that 24 whips, at elast 4 of them former merchants armed to TL14 standards (BTW, being able to produce TL15 starships, I cannot undertand why they didn't arm them to TL15 standards, but that's another question). Hidden from prying eyes.
• The "open¹" Confederatin Navy: about 20 starships performing most standard duties (patroling, S&R, etc.). probably mostly TL15 starships,
• The "auxiliary¹" Confederation Navy: ships on loan, on a yearly rotating basis, by the Naval Militias that augment the "open" Navy. About 20 of them too (one or more per Militia).
• The Naval Militias: the equivalent to the planetary navies in the 3I. Formed by the ships not loaned as "auxiliary", and kept at high state of tech and training due to their rotating terms with the Confederation Navy. Indeterminate strength.

Note 1: those names are not oficial, just given by me for lack of better world to distinguish the various parts of the DCN​

 

[Reverie Indigo]

I must be a usual suspect

AM:8 keeps using words like 'about' - there are "about twenty ships", the worlds provide "about twenty" more, also there are "less than two dozen" warships in the Navy arranged in two possibly three squadrons.

As I said in an earlier post it's almost as if the author is going out of their way to be vague.

I'm coming to this debate very late, but it was a thought-provoking read. The key issue is determining what threat the Darrians faced that would cause them to build 18 spinal-mounted cruisers (according to MgT Darrians). Here are candidates:

- Sindalian Empire: Fell in -1441. The empire consisted of 20 core worlds and colonies and outposts up to 24 parsecs away. 24 parsecs from Noricum is well within the 20-parsec radius of Darrian. Darrian's explosion of exploration started in -1370, so they almost certainly encountered remnants, like the Drinax Kingdom. We don't know the tech level of Sindal or Drinax, but unless they had Jump 4, the Outrim Void would funnel them away from Darrian.

This is not 18 spinal-mounted cruisers worth of threat.

- Garoo. No.

- Droyne. This one is potentially serious. It's hard to imagine the Darrians getting into fights with them, but it's possible, and the Droyne tech level could have been anything.

- Native races of the Spinward Marches. Potential. There are hints of darkness in Darrian history. What if there used to be a Shrieker Empire that was destroyed in a war with Darrian? The near-genocide would be buried if not forgotten. Or any of the other races - like the Tondouli, who live in Ancient facilities.

- If the Vargyr wandered into the area, one TL16 cruiser should have been more than enough to destroy every ship the Vargyr ever built.

- Other humans. If the Itzin fleet could get there, others could too. We know colonies were formed early on Vanejin & Algine, both too far away, unless they in turn colonized. We've never heard of Humans near Darrian. Someone would probably remember - unless the Darrians destroyed them.

- Foreven Sector. We have no idea what's there - it could be anything.

Of all these, Droyne and Foreven seem the most credible, but it's not very convincing. To justify a fleet of that magnitude (and the Maghiz destroyed half of it, so there were 36-ish cruisers), there had to be a threat, or it makes no sense.

So either there was a danger back then that is now gone, or the TL16 fleet is a total fraud.

The latter is certainly possible. Maybe a few armed exploration cruisers were built, but 80,000 tons seems like overkill. Or they could all be civilian ships later retrofitted as warships. This is probably the most likely.

However, it might be more fun to come up with an old threat (like a power in Foreven), maybe even have it return, or explore the Darrian destruction of the Saurian empire, or something like that.

The other point brought up was, why would they mothball all those large & fast ships when they could have been used to keep the colonies going, or at least evacuate them? The military does things like that, and in any case probably had no concept that there would be such a long period of darkness. If they assumed things would get better fast, it doesn't seem quite as stupid.

 

[Condottiere]

The Darrians might have been preparing to go on an expansionist spree, and creating an instrument of policy with overwhelming power tends to stifle any argument made by the other side.

 

[McPerth]

I'm coming to this debate very late, but it was a thought-provoking read.

This board is not against thread necromancy (as long as it's to add points, not just bumping), so it's OK

This said, I'm glad you found it interesting enough as to be worth of your first post (BTW, welcome aboard).

The key issue is determining what threat the Darrians faced that would cause them to build 18 spinal-mounted cruisers (according to MgT Darrians). Here are candidates:
(,,.)

I personally don't like the MgT approach of self-aware fleet, but I guess it was the way to give it the decisive punch they lost with the rules change.

In CT (ot MT, for what's worth) a single TL up was very important, due to the better computer reflexive DMs (and the 4-5 TLs over their main enemies, the Sword Worlds was totally decisive, as even a single weapon turret was quite deadly with those DMs), but in MgT this advanage is quite minimized, so they had to give them an edge i it was to be a deadly thread with only "less tan two dozen" ships.

As per threats the Darrian faced, my guess (IMMV) is that what they saw as mai nthread would have been eiher remains of the Vilani Empire going rogué, the Empire itself rebuilding and becoming expansionist or Solomai exilees as Izin fleet itself.

After all, the Izin fleet had to cross the whole Vilani Empire, and they didn't know what have been of it along the years. They didn't know about the Long Night...

Darrians are a long view minded people, and fleet takes years to build, so, IMHO, keeping a high TL combat fleet (albeit not a large one) just in case could have been wise for them.

The other point brought up was, why would they mothball all those large & fast ships when they could have been used to keep the colonies going, or at least evacuate them? The military does things like that, and in any case probably had no concept that there would be such a long period of darkness. If they assumed things would get better fast, it doesn't seem quite as stupid.

Thath's hard to swallow to me, as the Maghiz was a years long event...

When it hit Darrian itself, they might not see how hard it would be, but they had years before it hit other worlds (even if it travelled at light speed), and, at least after another system was hit, they would have realized its hardness, and sure every jump capable ship would have been put to use for preparation/relief duties.

That's, as told many times in this thread, why I believe they could be Monitors or SDBs (in Golden Traveller Era used as BRs), while the told merchant ships refitted with TL 14 CT:AM8 talks about being used as tenders (IMHO, should they be used as true combat ships, they would have been refitted with TL15 weapons, as Golden Era Darrians had access to it), more so if their jump drives were more efficient (as Condotierre says, though it is T5, so not foreseen in CT times, though they might in MT times if the JDs themselves were TL 17, and so more fuel efficient), or if they used AM Power Plants (it is said in CT:AM8 the Darrians were on the verge of it when Maghiz stuck).

Again IMHO, this makes more sense. Non jump capable fleet was nearly useless for prevention/relief operations, and so I see as more logical for it to be mothballes and its personnel used in those opearations.