Darrian TL16 fleet

[mike wightman]

One last try

If the author of Darrians had only used the terms ships and warships then I would support your view that some of them could have been spaceships - SDBs, monitors or riders - without hesitation.

But the passage I have quoted clears up all ambiguity - it states no less than three times that the relic TL16 ships (including the warships and civilian vessels converted later to military use) are starships.

 

[McPerth]

One last try

If the author of Darrians had only used the terms ships and warships then I would support your view that some of them could have been spaceships - SDBs, monitors or riders - without hesitation.

But the passage I have quoted clears up all ambiguity - it states no less than three times that the relic TL16 ships (including the warships and civilian vessels converted later to military use) are starships.

OK, now my last (I hope, but don't promise ) try, with the same paragraph you quoted (with a little humor, and taking wording to extremes, if you allow me to. So, please, don't take anything here seriously as part of my thesis):

Thus, survivability and endurance can be inferred to be two of the characteristics that Darrian tech level 16 starships have.

So, only TL16 starships had those qualities, non-starships had neither survivality nor endurance.

Probably fewer than two dozen Darrian tech level 16 starships survive today. (...)

As said before, but no number of non-starships is given, so the hipotesys they had over a dozen Tenders with their riders (too bad they were not as durable, though) is plausible.

In addition, a small percentage of surviving Darrian tech level 16 starships were not originally of military design. At least four are reported to be merchant ships to which tech level 14 weaponry has been added. The implication is clear that tech level 16 ships have qualities that justify such a conversion, while such a conversion at tech level 15 or 14 would be inefficient at best.

See that even non-starships (as here it talks about ships only) also had those qualities, though is clear that the ones initially non-military are all starships, and so jump capable.

How do they know, if they are not as durable (and if your theory is right and there are none of them)? Anyone's guess...

Or I could try to press that this shows some non-starships were also so converted (or at least upgunned, for they must be military designed, as all non military where starships), as otherwhise it would have specified starships...


And now seriously:

We can see we reached different conclusions, both probably equally arguable depending on how do you read (and probably what modules you have, and here I guess you have advantage, as you told about some I don't, but you were kind enough as not to use this advantage, if they are indeed clearer).

In any case, I guess we at least agreed in that no very large ships would be there, due to the pre-Maghiz lack of immediate need for them, as Whipsnade so strongly (and quite rightly, IMHO) defended.

 

[Cryton]

my .02 CrImp. (also pretty tongue in cheek...)

Old Darrian TL16 Starships are occasionally found outside the Darrian system...few and far between...TL 16 Spaceships inside the Darrian system are seemingly never found...probably best to assume that they didn't survive the startrigger that devastated the sub-sector, especially when considering the fact that the Darrian system itself had minuets at best to prepare for the devastation. As to why they aren't found outside the Darrian system, one could logically assume that People, infrastructure and Starships took priority over Spaceships. That and that the ONLY TL 16 source of parts to keep them running was just blasted back into the stone age and stores were and remaining Spaceship parts were cannibalized to keep the few remaining Starships running.

As you guys have both said....they weren't very survivable anyways.

 

[McPerth]

my .02 CrImp. (also pretty tongue in cheek...)

Old Darrian TL16 Starships are occasionally found outside the Darrian system...few and far between...TL 16 Spaceships inside the Darrian system are seemingly never found...probably best to assume that they didn't survive the startrigger that devastated the sub-sector, especially when considering the fact that the Darrian system itself had minuets at best to prepare for the devastation. As to why they aren't found outside the Darrian system, one could logically assume that People, infrastructure and Starships took priority over Spaceships. That and that the ONLY TL 16 source of parts to keep them running was just blasted back into the stone age....

As you guys have both said....they weren't very survivable anyways.

Well, while plausible, this enters in full contradiction with existing canon (something I tried to avoid), as the existence of this TL16 fleet is clearly set on it (thoug its composition, reainess state and maintenance are not stated, at least in AM8)...

 

[Cryton]

Well, while plausible, this enters in full contradiction with existing canon (something I tried to avoid), as the existence of this TL16 fleet is clearly set on it (thoug its composition, reainess state and maintenance are not stated, at least in AM8)...

Full contradiction? Citations please.

 

[McPerth]

Full contradiction? Citations please.

Of the existence of the TL16 fleet?

of course, with pleasure:

CT:AM8 Darrian, Page 17:

These TL16 Warships were recovered from a stockpile of ships in the outer Darrian system in 390

CT:AM8 Darrian, Page 24:

The Darrian Navy is built arround a core of TL16 warships

(...)

Thus, survivability and endurance can be inferred to be two of the characteristics that Darrian tech level 16 starships have.
Probably fewer than two dozen Darrian tech level 16 starships survive today. The force is divided into two squadrons: one oriented toward the Sword Worlds subsector; the other oriented toward potential Zhodani threats toward the core and spinward. Some naval analysts have postulated that a third squadron is in a deep reserve position, or oriented toward the Imperium, or used to equip elements of the Darrian Special Arm.
In addition, a small percentage of surviving Darrian tech level 16 starships were not originally of military design. At least four are reported to be merchant ships to which tech level 14 weaponry has been added. The implication is clear that tech level 16 ships have qualities that justify such a conversion, while such a conversion at tech level 15 or 14 would be inefficient at best.

Enough of them?

 

[Cryton]

Enough for less than two dozen WARSHIPS of which at least four are converted non-warships. All of which, as they are Fleet elements, have to be Starships.

As to the existence of remnant TL16 non- starships, nothing contradicts.Nor is my earlier statement contradicted as the cache may very well have been made in the years just post the Startrigger event.

 

[McPerth]

As to the existence of remnant TL16 non- starships, nothing contradicts.Nor is my earlier statement contradicted as the cache may very well have been made in the years just post the Startrigger event.

Oh, sorry, I didn't caught you were talking about the non-starships as probably not existing...

Enough for less than two dozen WARSHIPS of which at least four are converted non-warships. All of which, as they are Fleet elements, have to be Starships.

So, being a fleet element means a Starship, and non-starships may not be warships nor fleet elements...

How do you call the BRs (or monitors, as the difference is only in use) then?

 

[mike wightman]

We can see we reached different conclusions, both probably equally arguable depending on how do you read (and probably what modules you have, and here I guess you have advantage, as you told about some I don't, but you were kind enough as not to use this advantage, if they are indeed clearer).

In any case, I guess we at least agreed in that no very large ships would be there, due to the pre-Maghiz lack of immediate need for them, as Whipsnade so strongly (and quite rightly, IMHO) defended.

Hold onto your hat.


I agree with you - we have no idea how many TL16 spaceships (ie non-starships) and smallcraft survived. There could be TL16 SDBs, riders etc that we have not been told about.

We have been told that the Darrian Interstellar Navy relic TL16 starships number a bit less than twenty four and that at least four of them are converted merchants and that they have them divided into two possibly three squadrons. The more I read it the more vague it becomes, almost as if the author is hiding something.

Total conjecture on my part but what if the stockpile story is as much of a red herring as the vague number of starships, how many of them are converted merchants and how many squadrons are deployed? What if the Darrians kept them up and running over the centuries and only publicly revealed them as a deterrent to the Sword Worlds...

 

[Cryton]

I call the BRs to be from a later supplement to the game, and not accounted for in the Materials we are discussing, and in any case, BRs are considered to be a subcraft the carrier they are transported on.

 

[McPerth]

I call the BRs to be from a later supplement to the game, and not accounted for in the Materials we are discussing, and in any case, BRs are considered to be a subcraft the carrier they are transported on.

Well let's see definitions:

(Book 2, 1981 edition, page 12, emphasis original.)

Breaking it out into a more modern approach to definitions:

Definitions:

• A vessel is any interplanetary or interstellar vehicle.
  • A ship is any vessel of 100 tons or more.
    • A starship is a ship which has jump drives and can travel on interstellar voyages.
    • A non-starship is a ship without jump drives.
  • A small craft is any vessel under 100 tons; all small craft are incapable of jump.

So, being over 100 dtons they are ships.

They are also capital ships, as they are thought for the main battle fleet (the yuse to be the strike arm of many BatDrons.

So, I think BRs (and Monitors) well deserve the name of Warship (while not Starships)...

As I already said, I don't believe the Darrian used BT/BR combos, but they probably built monitors, that can well now be carried as BRs in Tenders (even if the Tenders themselves are of lower TL).

 

[Cryton]

BRs are STILL sub-craft of their tenders, or they would not bear the designation of Battle Rider, and would instead bear the designation of either Monitor, or non-starship depending upon its mobility. The BTs are still considered to be the main and required component for the Battle Rider designation.

I also agree that they ARE Warships. I also agree with your thoughts that the Darrians of the day did not use them.

 

[McPerth]

The BTs are still considered to be the main and required component for the Battle Rider designation.

I agree, and yet it's probably the only non-Warship of the squadron (being in fact a support ship, albeit a critical one and the core of the squadron).

 

[mike wightman]

I call the BRs to be from a later supplement to the game, and not accounted for in the Materials we are discussing, and in any case, BRs are considered to be a subcraft the carrier they are transported on.

BR are established setting canon years before AM:8 was published.

For citations go and read LD:A-M, S:9 and SMC, all published years before AM:8. SMC goes into great detail about an IN BR BatRon.

 

[Cryton]

BR are established setting canon years before AM:8 was published.

For citations go and read LD:A-M and S:9, both published years before AM:8

My error. Thank you Mike.

 

[mike wightman]

No probs

I am still waiting for McPerth to read my last post on the previous page - I think he may have missed it...

 

[Condottiere]

Warships are built in response to a current or perceived future threat.

Or if there's going to be an aggressive expansion of the sphere of influence.

I only have a superficial appreciation of Darrian history, but I would assume the composition of the Darrian order of battle is to contrast it with the Sword Worlds'.

 

[mike wightman]

The TL16 Darrian ships were built a very long time before there were any Sword Worlds - so unless the Darrians were prescient they couldn't build a fleet to cope with that particular threat.

 

[McPerth]

I am still waiting for McPerth to read my last post on the previous page - I think he may have missed it...

I didn't. In fact I read it several times, and I'm not sure of its meaning. I didn't ask it before out of fear of having misundersood you could create unwanted quarrel...

Hold onto your hat.

I understand here you try to see it from my prespective, even while not being your POV (that was the part I was afraid to misread).

I agree with you - we have no idea how many TL16 spaceships (ie non-starships) and smallcraft survived. There could be TL16 SDBs, riders etc that we have not been told about.

Yes, that is part of my point, that some or all of them may be former monitors/heavy SDBs¹ now used as RIders (as we've agreed the whole BT/BR concept is unlikely to have been used by pre-Maghiz Darrians).

We have been told that the Darrian Interstellar Navy relic TL16 starships number a bit less than twenty four and that at least four of them are converted merchants and that they have them divided into two possibly three squadrons. The more I read it the more vague it becomes, almost as if the author is hiding something.

Agreed. As Whipsnade told at the begining of the thread, is always good to go back to basis from time to time.

Yo forget (or take as given) that, at least as squadrons, they are jump capable, as they are clearly a mobile fleet, not just a planetary defense one.

About the possibility of the autor hiding something, this is a good guess, be it because he intended to release it on further (never published, AFAIK) supplements or just to be vague enough as to allow each referee to adapt it to HTU (neither case was uncommon in most Traveller versions).

Total conjecture on my part but what if the stockpile story is as much of a red herring as the vague number of starships, how many of them are converted merchants and how many squadrons are deployed? What if the Darrians kept them up and running over the centuries and only publicly revealed them as a deterrent to the Sword Worlds...

So, your idea here is that the ships (whatever they are) were already there before 390, and they were disclossed then (sith the excuse of the find) when they saw they could be needed and the knowledge of their existence could be nearly as good a derretant as the Star Triger (less powerful, more likely to be bought to bear).

That's an interesting scenario. I was also thinking in similar (though not exact) terms in thinking the ships (be them hidden reserve SDBs or, again as Whipsnade points, starshipsdiscounted as not maintainable at the moment) could be where it's said, but the Darrian were well aware of them amd their position.

If so, in 390 they realized they might need them, and probably had reached the point they can (more or less) maintain them, and so a prospector team "casually" discovered them.

 

[mike wightman]

I didn't. In fact I read it several times, and I'm not sure of its meaning. I didn't ask it before out of fear of having misundersood you could create unwanted quarrel...

This is a friendly, enjoyable discussion, quite good fun in fact.

I understand here you try to see it from my prespective, even while not being your POV (that was the part I was afraid to misread).

Sort of, the expression means I am about to say something that may shock you...

Yes, that is part of my point, that some or all of them may be former monitors/heavy SDBs¹ now used as RIders (as we've agreed the whole BT/BR concept is unlikely to have been used by pre-Maghiz Darrians).

Not quite, I am agreeing that there may be hitherto unknown spaceships we are not told about - the relevant section begins with talking about the Darrian Interstellar Navy and there is absolutely no doubt that the ships in the TL16 relic starship/warship squadrons are indeed starships - but I think you could be right that there could be TL16 SDBs and the like which are not part of the Darrian relic TL16 Interstellar Navy Squadrons.

You forget (or take as given) that, at least as squadrons, they are jump capable, as they are clearly a mobile fleet, not just a planetary defense one.

I take it as read they are jump capable since they are part of the Interstellar Darrian Navy

About the possibility of the author hiding something, this is a good guess, be it because he intended to release it on further (never published, AFAIK) supplements or just to be vague enough as to allow each referee to adapt it to HTU (neither case was uncommon in most Traveller versions).

You are right, the Traveller authors definitely included vague stuff so we could make stuff up to suit our own ends.

So, your idea here is that the ships (whatever they are) were already there before 390, and they were disclossed then (sith the excuse of the find) when they saw they could be needed and the knowledge of their existence could be nearly as good a derretant as the Star Triger (less powerful, more likely to be bought to bear).

That's an interesting scenario. I was also thinking in similar (though not exact) terms in thinking the ships (be them hidden reserve SDBs or, again as Whipsnade points, starshipsdiscounted as not maintainable at the moment) could be where it's said, but the Darrian were well aware of them amd their position.

Yup, but as I said it is just conjecture on my part.

If so, in 390 they realized they might need them, and probably had reached the point they can (more or less) maintain them, and so a prospector team "casually" discovered them.

Yup, what makes more sense a couple of squadrons of ships can last a thousand years with no maintainance etc or that there is something else afoot? The author goes to great length to point out that TL15 ships wouldn't last this long and we know that the improvements from TL15 to TL16 are not as paradigm shifting as they are incremental improvements (despite my own personal wish for TL16 to be a step up the weight of Traveller canon is against me on that one - but for MTU... )