Deadly, but not a weapon

[Despasian]

In my opinion, the best two options are the cane and manriki-gusari methods.

Nothing more stylish than a classy cane/walking stick. Scores of movie and other references showcase where a skilled practitioner can be quite effective with even the mundane ones.

The belt/sash/shoulder rope that is strong and easily weighted is also great. Also the list of innocent objects usable as a garrote is ponderous long (my favorite being the weighted scarf made infamous by the Thuggies).

Sorry no new ideas, but the most workable ones (for the stated parameters) have been mentioned in various forms.

Despasian

PS: in addition to Sword & Fist and Q-Monk, 'Path of the Sword' is another D20 product that had some real nice Martial Arts/Weapon ideas. Not to mention the whole Oriental Adventures/Five Rings Line.

 

[Pagan priest]

Many years ago, I picked up a magazine for Traveller (The Traveller's Digest???) that had an article on Vilani fasions. Those included very long sleeves, the longer the sleeve, the higher the status of the person. It is hard to work when the sleeves are well beyond the finger tips.

In the D&D book Song & Silence there is an exotic weapon caled weighted sleeves. As you might have guessed, this weapon is a long, loose sleeve with about a half to a pound of weight. By swinging it fast enough, you can wack an enimy fairly hard.

If those Vilani sleeves are weighted with useful items, it would be hard to identify them as a weapon. I have worn sleeves like this at Ren Faires and SCA. They really can be good weapons.

 

[stofsk]

Originally posted by Morte:
[Edit: also intellectual curiosity. Armed combat should be better than unarmed combat, if the weapon is good enough. I'm curious as to whether I can find a "good enough" weapon which lets one appear unarmed.]

There are plenty of mundane items which you can put on your person and not be considered 'armed'. Most of them have been mentioned.

You may or may not believe this, but sometimes it is 'better' to be unarmed anyway. If you look at the law ANYthing you use in a fight will make you look guilty in the eyes of the law - especially if they're anally retentive about such things.

For instance, if you get into a fight with a guy and you use an improvised weapon you will have to justify yourself more than what you will if it just happened to be a punch-on. This isn't true everywhere (frontier towns would be more inclined towards self-defence than uptown posh cities), and won't be an issue if you get caught - but it is something to think about.

In any case, my suggestion would be to add a martial arts feat that removes the penalties of using improvised weaponry. Some martial arts train their students in this manner (ninjutsu is one example) - the beauty of it is your character is always 'armed' and can use pretty much anything as a weapon, provided that the player can justify it - which assists in role-playing. You can add other feats, like weapon focus (unarmed) or weapon specialisation (unarmed) and make both apply to any use of the martial arts feat. Using an improvised weapon then becomes an 'unarmed' weapon, mainly because the item being used is not as important as the knowledge your character has in using it.

(an example: the martial art teaches you to strike your opponents arms where pressure points are located. Using this skill with your bare hands obviously means you're fighting unarmed. However, what if you had a very sturdy pen or letter opener? You'd still hit the same areas that you would've with your fists, but with the added penetration of the pen you'd be more effective. However, using a pen or an improvised weapon in this manner is not significantly different from using just your hands.)

 

[LordVince]

Style. Style, and something that ISN'T a weapon, but can be used as one -- preferably in a multitude of functions. Oh! And something which -- unlike the suggested cane -- doesn't ring any alarm bells by it's very anachronism.

The object should not be "gadgety", because "gadgety" could be detected, and the item's use as a weapon "revealed". But, just what is meant by "gadgety"? Does the use of advanced materials qualify as "gadgety"? I mean, a material which, in and of itself, is not harmful or dangerous?

Keeping all that in mind, here's my suggestion for an item which could be taken anywhere -- from a safari in the wilderness, to a penthouse party. And maybe even out onto the vacuum expanse of a dusty moonlet.

Folks, I suggest to you, the simple Umbrella. Or bumbershoot, if you prefer. (yeah, somebody mentioned it before -- in passing!)

Here's my case for the Umbrella. Unlike the cane - which has been downplayed because someone pointed out that, with the medical technology available 5k years from now, any good Guard is gonna ask "Why do you need that?" - an Umbrella won't be given a second glance. Really, think about it! As far as I know, no matter which version of Traveller you look at, they ALL maintain that Personal-Scale Force Fields/Shields are impossible to Imperial science. So, what're you gonna use to keep the rain off?

Think about that. REALLY think about that. If the possibility of some high-tech force-fieldy gadget to keep the rain off of you is NOT allowed by the game rules, then what ELSE are you gonna use? A Raincoat, or a Vacsuit? Sure, you could, but I'm willing to bet that, short of a robotic rain-shield which hovers abouve your head, 5-thousand years from now the Umbrella will still be in use.

Now, let's address that pesky Guard's question: "Why do you need THAT?"

Simply, an Umbrella is a shield against the environment. It keeps the water off you when it rains. It provides shade on hot, sunny days. It is a small barrier against winds. In many places (England, just as an example) a Brolly is carried JUST IN CASE it should rain. With the proper role-playing, the almost constant carrying of an Umbrella could be easily passed off.

Of course, being reasonable, there ARE places you wouldn't take an Umbrella -- you wouldn't take it to your table at a 5 star restaurant, you wouldn't carry it around at a fancy cocktail party, you wouldn't hit the dance floor with it in your hand, etc. But, as I said, that's an element of ROLE-playing.

Okay, an Umbrella is innocuous. An Umbrella is, usually, not considered dangerous. We carry it -- officially -- to keep off the sun, wind, and rain. So, just how dangerous can it be?

Let's find out....

Okay, the obvious thing that immediately jumps out about the "danger" of an Umbrella is that, some older styles, have a pointed tip. Now, normally, this isn't a sharpened tip, but a bluntly rounded "tip". Hey, shove it at somebody hard enough, and you're gonna skewer them! So, it can be used -- without modification! -- to stab a body.

Now, at its heart, an Umbrella is a long stick with an easy-hold grip at one end. This makes the case for a simple club. Sure, it's got fabric wrapped around it, but, once again, if you hit someone hard enough, they're gonna get hurt. So, it can be used -- again, without modification! -- to bludgeon a body.

Now, let's combine the two things. An Umbrella is a long stick with a point at one end, designed to be grasped firmly at the other end. Sounds kinda like a sword, specifically, a Foil. Sure, its still got all that fabric wrapped around it, but other than messing with the balance, that fabric wouldn't stop you from Fencing with an Umbrella.

Okay, so you can stab with it, club with it, and even parry and riposte with it. But, I mean really, it's JUST an Umbrella! A fragile, nylon & aluminum wisp of a thing!

Sure, if you bought it at Kmart for 2 bucks! But, what we're talking about, here, is a TRAVELLER'S Umbrella! AND, we're also talking about a Tech Level 5000 years from NOW. So, this would be a "special order" Umbrella, so what? Just as long as it's NOT a weapon, you can justify the expense. Right?

To start with, the body of the Umbrella needs to be made of either a strong, but lightweight alloy or composite. But not TOO light! You need SOME weight for decent bludgeoning damage; so the weight should fall somewhere around the 3-4 pound area.

The tip is fine as is, but if you absolutely MUST give it a "sharp" point, then remember to also get a normal appearing, screw-down "cap" to cover it. This way, if some sharp-eyed Guard discovers the ruse, you can just shrug and say "I didn't know it could do that" or "it came that way". No harm, no foul.

But there's still the problem of that pesky roll of fabric around the stem of the Umbrella. It softens blows, and tends to get all cut up, when you use the Umbrella to Fence with. Well, there are two things you can do about that...

The first -- and most obvious -- solution, is to have some means of removing the fabric from the stem; just like removing a sword from its sheath. A twist-and-pull, or some simple snap-latch mechanism, whatever. The problem with this method, though, is that, if a Guard is examining your Umbrella REAL close, he might discover this option, and then you're back to "What's this, then?"

My favorite solution -- and the sneakiest -- is to NOT try to make the Umbrella easier to use as a weapon, but to turn the disadvantage of the fabric into a benefit. I do this by replacing the fabric with ballistic cloth. I mean, c'mon, guys, even today Kevlar cloth, at it's heaviest weave, looks like nothing more than vinyl fabric. They won't be able to improve on that in 5000 years?

Wrapped tightly around the Umbrella stem, ballistic cloth won't, significantly, influence the impact damage capability. And, as far as getting damaged when used as a "sword", again, if you keep the ballistic cloth wound tight , it won't suffer significant damage. AND, one final advantage to using ballistic cloth is that, in a gun fight, you can pop open the Umbrella and use it as a shield!

And, let's say that that sharp-eyed Guard mentioned before is on the ball, and he even notices that the fabric of your Umbrella IS ballistic cloth. So what! Remember when I said you might even consider taking an Umbrella out onto the airless fields of a moonlet? Well, that's why your Umbrella uses ballistic cloth! You just explain to the nosy Guard that you bring your Umbrella with you, when you go out onto lunar surfaces, to give you some added protection from strong sunlight, AND to help keep pesky micro-meteorites off your shoulders.

So there you have it. The Umbrella is -- with the use of some common, but high-tech materials , not gadgets! -- the perfect Weapon-that-is-not-a-Weapon.

And, it keeps the rain off your head

 

[far-trader]

Welcome aboard please check your umbrella, hat and coat at the airlock

Nice arguments and well put Lord Vince, I especially like the shield idea. I've often used (in game) a stylish briefcase for the same shield and/or bludgeon in a pinch. Bonus is it can be a bit better armor (even reflec, which may also work in the umbrella, especially for vacuum strolls) and a bit better hitting (hard and heavy).

Hey why so long to post anyway I only mention it since you're the second "first time poster, long time lurker" I noticed tonight.

 

[wa11eye]

some baseball caps have a hard plastic brim that could be sharpned. no body would know because it is covered with the colored canvas. just take your hat off for a bow and party of 2 is now party of one

 

[LordVince]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Hey why so long to post anyway I only mention it since you're the second "first time poster, long time lurker" I noticed tonight.

Actually, I have posted, here, once or twice before...
It's a combination of two things which, usually, keeps me from posting more often. One, I have infrequent & unreliable internet access, and I can't scan these pages as often as I'd like. And two, even when I do find something that I feel strongly enough to express my opinion about, usually by the time I've read to the "bottom" of that thread, somebody has already said what I would have -- often times better than I could have

I've been around Traveller almost since the beginning -- around '78. I haven't played it as much as I would have liked, but I have to admit, this T20 is pretty sweet.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

at the risk of using an anime reference and delivering a spoiler or two...

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER.

I'm suddenly reminded of the character Kirika, from the anime Noir.

In the first episode (and just about every promo) she demonstrates the necessity for agents to wear breakaway ties by not Throttling the man inquestion but using his body and his tie to keep her from falling several storyies as she jumps off a girder. (and incidentally breaks the man's neck)

After that she kills with:

The armature of a pair of sun glasses worn by a man trying to garrote her.

The wheel and axle of a Toy Truck.

Her student ID card.

A falling chandier (taking out an entire fire team of uzi weilding assasins firing from cover)

And... while not directly lethal. She beats a small army of uzi weilding, night vision wearing assasins in a darkened room by spreading popcorn on the floor and shooting her pistol blind more accurately than they can fire bursts at targets they can see.

 

[Anton]

How about the Chinese war fan?

It looks to all intents and purposes like any semi-decorative/semi-useful fan (used to cool oneself), but the 'spokes' are metal and can be sharpened.

Either folder or spread, it can be used as a deadly stabbing or striking instrument.

I've studied an early chapter of the fan in kung fu (heh - where you mostly use the fan as a distraction (it makes a lovely loud 'WHAP!' sound when opened suddenly) and when your opponent is suitably distracted, you just punch or kick him) and seen a later chapter demonstrated, which uses it for impressive strikes.

Cheers,

Anton

PS - more updates on story hour, please, Morte!

 

[migo]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />why exactly do you want to use a weapon and not simply invest in more unarmed combat skill?

Style.</font>[/QUOTE]hm. I always thought kung fu was pretty stylish. jackie chan in space. it would lend a new dimension to zero G combat.

(now there's a new idea for chan's next movie.) </font>[/QUOTE]Jackie Chans style isn't suited for Zero-G combat. It would look hilarious though. The most useful Zero-G style would be Brazilian Ju-Jitsu or Submission Wrestling.

Speaking of BJJ. You can use a Jacket as a weapon to facilitate chokes, like Royce Gracie did to Ken Shamrock in UFC 1. Just have a nice leather (or some other synthetic material) that is as sturdy as a golden weave Gi top. Get the Improved Unnarmed Fighting feat, select the jacket as the exotic weapon. A good vascular strangulation will have someone unconscious in 4-8 seconds, or 1 round. As a choke bypasses armor, there's no reason for it not to deal temporary lifeblood damage. Average Con score is 11. So you'd want to be able to deal 11 damage on a critical success (either 19-20 x2 or 20 x3) 2d4 deals 5 dammage average, so a 20 x3 crit would be enough to render an average person unconscious.

Most improvised weapons can't be carried everywhere, the only problem is they might do a coat check. If that's the case set it up so that you can also do a RNC for 1d6 dammage or something like that.

 

[migo]

I dunno, the fabric is too thin on an umbrella to soften the dammage. As it stands right now an umbrella is a lot like a shinai. And to learn some fun, (and effective in the real world, since Traveller is based on hard science and not fantasy martial arts like kung fu just look what happened to Jason Delucia and Fred Ettish if you think kung fu and karate actually work) ways to use an umbrella. The Dog Brothers

 

[Anton]

Originally posted by migo:
...And to learn some fun, (and effective in the real world, since Traveller is based on hard science and not fantasy martial arts like kung fu) ...(snip)[/URL]

Er, don't be fooled by 'wire-fu' Jackie Chan films and the likes of 'Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon' (excellent film though it is). Sorry, but kung fu is a real world martial art and has been for some 2,000 years.

Kung fu is also an evolving martial art... yes, I laughed when told that there was an "umbrella chapter". I wasn't laughing a few minutes later when it was demonstrated.

Admittedly, it does have it's drawbacks... it's not much use against a laser carbine or slugthrower.

Regards,

Anton

 

[migo]

Kung Fu is a real world martial art sure, but it's not a useful one and is based on legends and not science. 2000 years old means it's 2000 years out of date. The only chinese styles that are of any use are Shuai Jiao and San Da, and the latter is Chinas answer to Muay Thai after sending a bunch of their masters over to get creamed by the Thais. Kung Fu not only has drawbacks against futuristic weapons, it also has drawbacks against street toughs who want to pick a fight. If a Kung Fu practitioner tries to defend themselves with the ridiculous forms they've trained they'll get creamed. Check out Bruce Lees comments on organized despair, or just look at what happened to Kung Fu practitioners who entered into the UFC and other MMA/NHB events. They got spanked, badly. The most success a Kung Fu fighter has had is breaking Ken Shamrocks hand with his head while getting knocked out.

It's simple, as soon as you get an adrenaline dump from getting into a fight, you work on instinct more than anything else, which means all the forms you trained are useless at best and counterproductive at worst. If you want your training to be of use, make it as close to the real thing as possible. Actually fight, just in a controlled environment where you can give up. Doing forms is not much closer to a real fight than practicing a choreographed dance.

The useful martial arts styles are the ones that focus most on training in fights and doing so full contact. That's Boxing, Freestyle and Greco-Roman Wrestling, Submission/Catch Wrestling, Shootfighting, Pankration, Muay Thai, San Da, Shuai Jiao, Judo, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Krabi Krabong, various RBSD & MMA styles etc. Admittedly they're all obsolete against a gun, but they actually work in CQC/HTH situations which can't be said for Traditional Forms based martial arts which have the art part down but are sorely lacking in the martial department.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

No mention of Tae Kwan Do? The school I attended 20 or so years ago had forms and drills yes. but we also did a lot of sparring.

It was a punching and kicking style that was a lot less formal in action than it was in training.

Cardiovascularly intense though. At the world championship level Tae Kwan Do competitors peaked out around age 24.

Unlike say... Kendo: whose practictioners always seemed to get better the older they got.

 

[migo]

Oops. I usually have something to say about TKD. I'd say it's more useful than most Kung Fu but the emphasis on high kicks really limits its usefulness. Sure, high kicks do work, Peter Aerts and Mirko Filopovic demonstrated that, but they do Muay Thai and Kickboxing respectively. The fact that there aren't any TKD fighters winning in K-1/MMA indicates something about its effectiveness - especially K-1, where the rules suit TKD very well. Striking only, no grappling to worry about. Karate is about the same as TKD, especially considering the names get used interchangably depending on which one the instructor thinks would sell better

Kyokushin and Seido Kaikan seem to have broken the mold of Karate and TKD with full contact training, but it still isn't at the level of Muay Thai which is tops in terms of standup striking. K-1 fighters use it, MMA fighters use it, RBSD people use it, JKD people use it.

 

[Anton]

Originally posted by migo:
Kung Fu is a real world martial art sure, but it's not a useful one and is based on legends and not science. 2000 years old means it's 2000 years out of date. ... [snip]... Kung Fu not only has drawbacks against futuristic weapons, it also has drawbacks against street toughs who want to pick a fight. If a Kung Fu practitioner tries to defend themselves with the ridiculous forms they've trained they'll get creamed. ... [snip] Doing forms is not much closer to a real fight than practicing a choreographed dance.

The useful martial arts styles are the ones that focus most on training in fights and doing so full contact. [snip]

Whatever it's based on, it works. Yes, using a form against street toughs would get you creamed - which is why anyone with any sense whatsoever wouldn't try to.

When our classes focus on self-defense techniques (as they often do) then the moves we practise may well be taken from or based on those in forms, but there's never a question of using just the form. We're also encouraged very much to improvise based on the situation and to finish the fight as quickly as possible - disabling the opponent so we can get away.

As to practical application - I'm glad to say I've never been in a fight since leaving school - but two of my friends/classmates were 'mugged' in the recent past. In both cases, they 'won' and got away and in one of those cases, it was against three opponents.

I don't know what kung fu schools/clubs you're familiar with, but in my own we regularly have free sparring with full contact.

I won't comment on UFC as I've never seen it.

Regards,

Anton

 

[Krysalis]

As a chain style weapon that is actually indetecable as such: A head scarf with two pockets in opposite corners into which are slotted weights, eg cigarette lighter, yo-yo, whatever. Pretty much the thugee scarf.

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Anton:
Whatever it's based on, it works. Yes, using a form against street toughs would get you creamed - which is why anyone with any sense whatsoever wouldn't try to.

I have to agree with Anton, and I have a friend who teaches Tai Chi and has studied White Eyebrow/Prawn (depends on translation) kung fu. During an unfortunate bar fight he dislocated the wrist of the guy attacking him without actually hitting the guy (just a gentle touch). I also have friends who have studied a lot of different styles: kung-fu, kickboxing, karate, ju-jitsu, hapkido (IMO better than TKD) and a bunch of others.

The whole point of doing repetitve forms is so that when you are 'operating on instinct' you use what you know. From the little I have heard of the 'ultimate' fighting scene they had to add time limits so that the grapplers didn't always win (notably the BJJ guys).

Also, IMO you can't judge a martial art based on one unreal artifical scenario. Whilst BJJ may be great one on one with unlimited time, it would suck against multiple opponents ... you have to define your criteria in order to work out whether one martial art is better than another.

 

[Leto III]

Using grappling arts in zero g is limiting. You would become tied to your opponent's momentum, and could end up is bad situations because of this. Weapons would be the best bet to avoid such difficulties.

Jame's Bond type stuff is not always practical. Pretty much the old tried and true, things like knives(metal pens), things like clubs(canes), things like garrots/whips(belts, ties).

Also, the weapons in the room. Most table legs can be easily broken, providing a weapon, windows, while imobile, make a good weapon, etc.

I disagree with the idea of sneaking a club in in lieu of training. If the person is specialized in something other than combat, then the best bet is to sneak in a weapon for someone who can make good use of that weapon. Otherwise, the risk outweighs the benefit.

Since we assume that there are armed security keeping you from carrying arms into the hypothetical area, reliance on unarmed fighting would be very dangerous, with low percentage of success, IMO, regardless of which fighting style is used. And if the goal is to use it later, in the case of passing through customs, then a better weapon could always be found in the interrum post search.

I think it's a good idea, knowing what on your guy is a weapon, and what could be added.

 

[DaveChase]

Aerosol cans

Even the ones with no flammable gas. In the enclosed environment of a space ship perfume could cause distraction, irritation, nausea and other symptoms.

In Zero-G the can could be used a source of movement.

2-Liter (or other) soda bottles, If remember correctly soda powder and vinegar in a 2 liter bottle would be a good missile in Zero-G.

I know that if thrown properly an ink pen works wonders. But think in a vacuum were there is no ‘air’ resistance how much more deadly the thrown item would be.


Just some thoughts. And no training required to do the above, just some creative thinking and living in the environment.

Dave