Defense of a Solar System

[PFVA63]

Some recent discussions on another board has gotten me wondering about how the defenses of a planetary/solar system might be arranged. I realize that a lot may depend on the specific era in question, where the solar system is located with respect to various borders and boundaries, and what the specific likely threats might be expected at that given time, but I'm interested in seeing what others here might think.

For instance if you have a fleet or flotilla in system;
would you concentrate it near the most valuable asset in system?
would you break it into smaller groups that would patrol in various areas?
would you station system defense boats/squadrons at each gas giant?
would you have multiple scattered bases in system?

etc

 

[Greylond]

Without knowing the elements in the system, i.e. what kind of planets or any bases or any possible most likely directions of attack, I'd say put out scanner pickets at whatever FTL Limit, i.e. Traveller's "100 diameter Limit" and concentrate the majority near the primary planet or other primary location. The pickets should detect intrusion and then the commander can deploy reaction forces to deal with it.

 

[Timerover51]

Some recent discussions on another board has gotten me wondering about how the defenses of a planetary/solar system might be arranged. I realize that a lot may depend on the specific era in question, where the solar system is located with respect to various borders and boundaries, and what the specific likely threats might be expected at that given time, but I'm interested in seeing what others here might think.

For instance if you have a fleet or flotilla in system;
would you concentrate it near the most valuable asset in system?
would you break it into smaller groups that would patrol in various areas?
would you station system defense boats/squadrons at each gas giant?
would you have multiple scattered bases in system?

etc

I would concentrate the major portion of my forces near the most valuable asset in the system. Then I would place monitoring stations on the icy moons of any gas giants in the system to detect anything trying to refuel at the gas giant or moon. After that, it depends on the size of my force and what I am defending. As a minimum, I would run a ship or ships at irregular intervals to the monitoring stations, and hold them there for a week at a time as an immediate reaction force. I would avoid any sort of regular patrol schedule to avoid having my ships picked off in detail.

Because all communications are at the speed of light, spreading forces around is asking to have them destroyed one at a time.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

that's kind of similar to my thinking, but one concern that I've been wondering is if a force jumps in at a gas giant how long could any response be delayed? Specifically it makes me wonder if an enemy could jump in refuel and jump out before a coherent response can be assembled?

I think I'll try and lay some stuff out using our solar system as a basis, looking at what might be reasonable response times depending on various planet layouts at different times.

 

[Greylond]

If an attacker wants to jump in and then out before responding units arrived, then I'd say the best thing would be to jump in using Drop Tanks. That way your ships have the fuel to jump out.

 

[HG_B]

If it is an important system, you'll have heavy buffered planetoid monitors in geo around the main world & GG's. Detection probes throughout the system at least out to the inner Ort cloud. You fleet will be strategically placed (but in constantly changing location) so as to be able to respond quickly.

A jump capable fleet attacking (because its tonnage disadvantage to non-jump ships) will get mauled pretty good in most cases.

 

[Greylond]

Well yea, that supposes it is an important enough world to have built monitors ahead of time. If you're defending a strategic point that you recently took or haven't had the time to build defenses, then you may just have to defend with just a fleet.

Many different scenarios, all depends on specifics...

 

[HG_B]

You can also "mine" the GG's deep atmosphere with huge nukes. A large nuke going off in atmosphere (as opposed to the vacuum of space) near any ship is going to destroy it.

So much for refueling :devil:

 

[Timerover51]

Hi,

that's kind of similar to my thinking, but one concern that I've been wondering is if a force jumps in at a gas giant how long could any response be delayed? Specifically it makes me wonder if an enemy could jump in refuel and jump out before a coherent response can be assembled?

I think I'll try and lay some stuff out using our solar system as a basis, looking at what might be reasonable response times depending on various planet layouts at different times.

Your detection posts are going to communicate at speed of light, so just about 9 minutes per 100 million miles. You may therefore easily be looking at an hour or more before your main force knows about the incursion. That is assuming the opponent visits a gas giant first, and that the force there is not a decoy to draw you away from your main defense area.

Using Saturn and Earth as examples, you may easily be looking at 10 AU, or 930 million miles, before you can even think of engaging. At 10 million miles per hour, which is 2777 miles per second, it will take you roughly 4 days before reaching the gas giant, and that assumes your force is instantly able to go, which is highly unlikely.

 

[Carlobrand]

Some recent discussions on another board has gotten me wondering about how the defenses of a planetary/solar system might be arranged. I realize that a lot may depend on the specific era in question, where the solar system is located with respect to various borders and boundaries, and what the specific likely threats might be expected at that given time, but I'm interested in seeing what others here might think.

For instance if you have a fleet or flotilla in system;
would you concentrate it near the most valuable asset in system?
would you break it into smaller groups that would patrol in various areas?
would you station system defense boats/squadrons at each gas giant?
would you have multiple scattered bases in system?

etc

Timerover and Greylond answered well - absent better information about the strategic situation and enemy dispositions, you concentrate your forces, set up monitoring elsewhere. I'd station some SDBs at the gas giants, if I could spare a few - you might have an opportunity to put rounds in a refueling boat or other vulnerable ship and impair the enemy fleet's ability to refuel.

Much depends on your resources. If you're expecting to be overwhelmed, you start thinking in terms of asymmetric battle. How can you make the little bit of leverage you have count the most? Camping out planetside or in the gas giant rather than confronting him can complicate his refueling plans, possibly delay his advance - in that instance, since you neither have the force nor the intention to confront him head-on, scattering your force (and avoiding battle except when the terms favor you) might give him more logistical headaches than remaining concentrated. Scattering and preserving your force may oblige him to leave behind part of his force to keep his supply lines open - though that really isn't dealt with very well in the available games.

Hi,

that's kind of similar to my thinking, but one concern that I've been wondering is if a force jumps in at a gas giant how long could any response be delayed? Specifically it makes me wonder if an enemy could jump in refuel and jump out before a coherent response can be assembled?

I think I'll try and lay some stuff out using our solar system as a basis, looking at what might be reasonable response times depending on various planet layouts at different times.

Canon refueling time for a streamlined or partially streamlined ship scooping at a gas giant is about 3 hours. An opposing fleet capable of 6G can only manage a couple million klicks in the time it takes you to refuel and jump out, so unless they have something at the gas giant, they aren't going to be able to get there in time.

If they DO have something there, three hours is 9 turns of High-Guard/MegaTrav combat. It then depends on the rules and whether the refueling fleet can keep the enemy at bay while ships are refueling. If the refueling fleet can, then it's just 9 or so turns of battle while they refuel and then leave. If the refueling fleet can't, then they're faced with either placing fueling ships at risk or spending time killing the defenders before they can refuel.

If it is an important system, you'll have heavy buffered planetoid monitors in geo around the main world & GG's. Detection probes throughout the system at least out to the inner Ort cloud. You fleet will be strategically placed (but in constantly changing location) so as to be able to respond quickly.

A jump capable fleet attacking (because its tonnage disadvantage to non-jump ships) will get mauled pretty good in most cases.

Not in most cases. In most cases a wise attacker isn't going to allow you parity of numbers. He'll either seek to achieve local superiority to overwhelm you or he'll isolate your strongpoints and smash your weak points. Parity generally means someone's made a big mistake or someone's taking a big chance - usually because he doesn't have a better option available.

 

[Greylond]

One thing that I've done in wargames, where possible in scifi RPGs that dealt with military themes, is the old trick of sending in a stealthed scout to jump way out beyond reasonable detection range and then send a probe on a ballistic flight through the system to get layout and passive sensor readings on active warships/defenses in system. Just do another jump or send another stealthed scout to a point opposite the first jump location to pick up the probe and download the collected data.

 

[aramis]

of sending in a stealthed scout

TANSIS, man, TANSIS. There Ain't No Stealth In Space

The closest you get is something small enough and far enough to not be noticed against the background. But the background is a steady source of IR at the 3°K temp band... and ships radiate at around 290°K. If you're within a few light days, and have a habitable temp, you're likely to be spotted... if someone is LOOKING.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Your detection posts are going to communicate at speed of light, so just about 9 minutes per 100 million miles. You may therefore easily be looking at an hour or more before your main force knows about the incursion. That is assuming the opponent visits a gas giant first, and that the force there is not a decoy to draw you away from your main defense area.

Using Saturn and Earth as examples, you may easily be looking at 10 AU, or 930 million miles, before you can even think of engaging. At 10 million miles per hour, which is 2777 miles per second, it will take you roughly 4 days before reaching the gas giant, and that assumes your force is instantly able to go, which is highly unlikely.

This. And, though it might take you 4 days to reach the GG, it will take you (with a Traveller max of 6G acceleration) 5+ days to *get to* that speed, first!

If you're within a few light days, and have a habitable temp, you're likely to be spotted.

But, it will take them a few days to notice........

 

[HG_B]

Not in most cases. In most cases a wise attacker isn't going to allow you parity of numbers. He'll either seek to achieve local superiority to overwhelm you or he'll isolate your strongpoints and smash your weak points. Parity generally means someone's made a big mistake or someone's taking a big chance - usually because he doesn't have a better option available.

With equal resources, the attacker gets his clock cleaned. About every time.

 

[HG_B]

tansis, man, tansis. there ain't no stealth in space

the closest you get is something small enough and far enough to not be noticed against the background. But the background is a steady source of ir at the 3°k temp band... And ships radiate at around 290°k. If you're within a few light days, and have a habitable temp, you're likely to be spotted... If someone is looking.

bingo

 

[HG_B]

This. And, though it might take you 4 days to reach the GG, it will take you (with a Traveller max of 6G acceleration) 5+ days to *get to* that speed, first!



But, it will take them a few days to notice........

AND, it will take an equal amount of time to see what's going on in the present.

 

[Greylond]

TANSIS, man, TANSIS. There Ain't No Stealth In Space

The closest you get is something small enough and far enough to not be noticed against the background. But the background is a steady source of IR at the 3°K temp band... and ships radiate at around 290°K. If you're within a few light days, and have a habitable temp, you're likely to be spotted... if someone is LOOKING.

I'd argue that a Stealth probe could be done. Not easy, but doable. I can think of several situations, including but not limited to turning a rogue comet into a probe and sending that through. The secret is not being totally invisible but looking like something that won't trip alarms. And yes, it would take awhile but if it is a strategic system, you could get some good basic info. Back it up with some spies traveling through to get updates a few weeks before the invasion. Humanti isn't perfect, you play on the weaknesses of the watchers and be devious...

 

[Carlobrand]

I'd argue that a Stealth probe could be done. Not easy, but doable. I can think of several situations, including but not limited to turning a rogue comet into a probe and sending that through. The secret is not being totally invisible but looking like something that won't trip alarms. ...

Yup. It's a bot the size of a basketball, lacking maneuvering drives, dependent on battery power, and set to use the barest minimum power until the time it's actually needed. They might not notice it - if you keep it out around about the orbit of Neptune.

Actually, you might manage to get closer if you bury it in that comet to hide its heat trace - and the comet's in a known orbit, and you can manage to get the job done before you melt your cover. Stealth in space depends more on what the other guy's doing to find you than on what you're doing to not be found, 'cause most any power-using device tends to stick out like a sore thumb. Still, if the other guy's some little colony that isn't paying much attention to its orbital space, you might be able to sneak up on them.

 

[Greylond]

Most sneaking actually involves abusing any guard/watcher's weaknesses more than anything to make your sneak out of sight/"invisible." Given a specific scenario/setup I'd be willing to bet that there would be a way to get a spy or probe in. Again, the easiest exploitable weakness in the equation is always Humanti...

 

[Enoki]

Quite frankly, I think Mahan still applies to this situation....