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Defense of a Solar System

One of problems with this thread is that everyone is arguing from a point of view based on a system in their head, and every one of those is different. I think it might be better to have one(or maybe a couple) so that we are all on the same page... ;)

Only in this thread? For what I've seen is something endemic in all the CotI (except in the version specific forums, and even there not always) :rofl:

Anyway, Traveller is suposed to be more or less compatible in all its versions (at least in ambientation and principles), and sometimes what is not specified in one version is assumed or extrapoled form another, as this seems to be the case.

In the case of being able to tell where has someone jumped, I've never seen a mention on its behalf, nor against it in any of the versions I read (mostly CT and MT, some T4 and MgT, nearly none TNE and none about other versions), so I trust Aramis knowledge about the only version that seems to talk about the matter.
 
You may want to wait to see what T5 has to say on the matter...

Anyway, what is the TL and industrial base of this hypothetical system?

How many deep site meson guns are there built into the moons of the gas giants or defending the main world.
 
Yes, it's possible to identify the destination of a ship's jump by watching its jump entry. Regency Sourcebook, Referee's Library Data.


Let's all read that passage as it's vitally important that we're all on the same page.

Regency Sourcebook, page 79, Penetration entry, second paragraph:

Penetration is accompanied by gravitic "indentation" and "ripples" which can be detected by sensors with a hard fire control lock on the departing ship. Proper analysis of the penetration angle, jump envelope configuration, and entry vector can allow a prediction of the likely direction and distance of the jump. Prevention of such lock-ons is one of the main missions of rear-guard screening forces in space combat. Area jammers and nuclear "white-out" patterns are typically used to obscure enemy view of friendly penetration for just this reason.

Wil correctly wrote that identifying jump destinations by watching jump entry is possible. Sadly, I know too many of you will immediately conflate that possible with automatic.

When you read the passage I quoted, pay close attention to the many qualifiers used in the description. Penetration can be detected. Detection requires a hard fire control lock. Three different sets of data, penetration angle, jump envelope configuration, and entry vector, must be observed. Proper analysis can allow a prediction of likely jump distance and direction.

Along with the many qualifiers used, pay close attention to how such detection can and usually is prevented or spoofed.

Observers can predict a jumping ship's likely destination if a number of prerequisites involving detection and analysis are met. Such predictions are not automatic or easy nor can such predictions be made beyond fire control lock ranges.
 
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you concentrate your forces, set up monitoring elsewhere
If the ships are always fully manned and the expense of operating them is not an issue (vs ships in reserve) why not have random patrols so that the enemy can't predict what forces will be where. Not saying take the whole fleet out to the asteroid belt and away from any viable targets.
 
Meh, those jump detection rules mess with the idea of an in-system jump, as in 1) jump to gas giant, refuel and do a sensor sweep, then 2) jump out, with itbeing a) in system or b) to another system you think might be less defended/more vital.
 
Actually, Neither GT nor T20 says you can't - they simply don't mention either way. Same for Hero Trav. I don't recall MGT discussing it, either.

It would have to be an affirmative not, an absence. Except for that one book, it has been held that you can't do this.
 
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One of problems with this thread is that everyone is arguing from a point of view based on a system in their head, and every one of those is different. I think it might be better to have one(or maybe a couple) so that we are all on the same page... ;)

Hi,

Because of issues like this, I've been kind of concentrating on our Solar System, since its one that we have a fairly good understanding of (at least compared to the more limited data that we appear to have on other real systems.

I guess a couple issues with our Solar system are that;

we appear to have several gas giants in system,
there also is an asteroid belt,
the orbit of at least one planet appears to be fairly "out of plane" with the other planets,
there may be more than one "target of interest" in system (at least in terms of in the Traveller setting.

With specific regards to the 1st item this may make it difficult for a defender to cover all possible refueling locations for an incoming enemy fleet/squadron.

With regards to the last item, I'm having trouble recalling all the details but I am under the impression that in the Traveller setting there are different outposts and such throughout the Sol system (perhaps it may be mentioned in Invasion Earth).

Either way, I'm not fully sure if these issues are typical of other Traveller systems or not though.
 
Hi,

This is exactly along my lines of thinking. What this implies to me is that;

a) just because an attacking fleet jumps into a defended system is no guarantee that there will be contact between the attackers and defenders

YES! FFW got that wrong - though, in its defense, trying to emulate the "real" situation would have made the game wickedly complicated.

b) the presence of a defending fleet is no guarantee that the attacker won't be able to refuel at a local gas giant

YES!! Or rather, SOMETIMES!! Regina, for example, has an unusual layout with the primary world in orbit around one of the local gas giants - and is a trinary system with yet another gas giant orbiting one of the sister stars, some 5000 AU distant from the primary world. On such oddities are grand strategies developed.

(Actually, given the technology, one can envision the combatants floating specially constructed meson batteries deep within the atmospheres of gas giants, where other weapons could not reach them and where the enemy would be obliged to rely solely on meson fire to counter it or would have to enter the atmosphere and face conducting battle while within a gravity well and dense atmosphere. Makes for one deadly combat scenario - though we'd need to come up with our own rules.)

c) as such, a raiding fleet may be able to reach further behind front lines than might other wise be expected, since its no guarantee that defenders will stop them from refueling

YES!!! In fact, the key limiting factor is more likely to be other supplies and the ability of the enemy to interdict them. Not captured at all under High Guard, for example, is the circumstance of a fleet diving deep into enemy territory and having to make attacks without missiles or sand. There's little or no information on the ability of that life support system to meet food needs - one tends to think of the crew eating stuff brought in from planets, but it's conceivable that a far-future ship might have a way to use some of that massive amount of power it has to convert some of the solid wastes to synthetic foods that would serve the need for a time.

d) if contact is made battle may well be a phased affair with 1st contact being made by only limited forces with major forces being much delayed

Y... uh, okay. "Phased" battles don't tend to be as successful for the attacker as the sudden overwhelming thrust, but I guess there might be specific strategic circumstances favoring that kind of attack.

e) there are many potential widely separated points where an attacker may enter the system, which would be hard for a defender to cover

Yes, though with caveats. An attacker can enter literally anywhere in the system, except within 100 diameters of a mass, but there are only so many places that are militarily useful. Jumping into the outsystem can be threatening, but it does nothing to actually take useful territory.

This creates another wrinkle: jump masking. Some primary worlds are deep within the gravity well of their system's primary star. An attacker is compelled to jump to some point a long way from the primary, then drive for hours or even days to reach the primary world - and faces the same outbound drive before he can jump, if he is forced to withdraw.

In a nutshell, the strategic campaign is way more complex than is envisioned in FFW - necessarily so, but it might be fun to see what would happen if...

f) micro-jumps may allow an attacker to 1st jump into a system, refuel and then jump again only to reappear elsewhere in the same system about one week later

Warning: speed of advance is critical in overwhelming a defense and keeping the enemy off-balance. Give the enemy time, and he gains the opportunity to concentrate forces ahead of your advance, not to mention plan and implement advances of his own. This is especially true if attacking the Imperium - they've got a lot of depth and therefore a lot of resources that can come forward to meet your attack if given sufficient time. Whle you're twiddling around finding the optimum method to take Efate, he's showing up in force at Ninjar.

(Patton is every bit as useful as Mahan for some things.)

Think of it like chess. If you waste time on a chessboard, you lose - or at best manage a draw. His attack unfolds before your attack can, and you end up spending the rest of the game on defense. In space war, you need the battle won and your fleet on the way to the next objective as quickly as possible, or your carefully executed victory at THIS objective may end up being your last.

However, there again may be specific circumstances recommending such a strategy for a given system. The only hard rule in war is that there aren't any hard rules, so long as it moves you toward victory.

In general then, to me a lot of this kind of suggests that "fronts" in a battle (say like in the game "5th Frontier War") may actually be much more porous then may otherwise be expected, with an attacker passing through some systems only stopping to refuel (even if a defending fleet is present) and moving on before a coherent defense is put together.

Pretty much. This being sci fi, everything depends on the base assumptions. If your ships are dependent on planetary sources for food, or are consuming spare parts that they can't fabricate for themselves in the course of routinely moving about, there may be something more like "fronts" going on. If not, then ... well, in its most extreme interpretation, a Zhodani or Solomani fleet could conceivably show up at Capital.

In the interests of a milieu that behaves more like the one GDW has offered us, it might be advisable to accept certain broad limits on that idea.

If the ships are always fully manned and the expense of operating them is not an issue (vs ships in reserve) why not have random patrols so that the enemy can't predict what forces will be where. Not saying take the whole fleet out to the asteroid belt and away from any viable targets.

There's no reason not to have such patrols, assuming you can do so without reducing your readiness at the key target. It's a question of force multipliers: a small unexpected force in an unexpected place can have an impact far beyond their actual strength under the right circumstances.

It's the same reason you might want to retreat your force to the outsystem if you expected to be confronted by a superior force: your continued existence somewhere in the system means he has to commit forces to keep you from showing up at some unexpected time and hurting him, which means his spearhead has that much less strength.
 
If the ships are always fully manned and the expense of operating them is not an issue (vs ships in reserve) why not have random patrols so that the enemy can't predict what forces will be where. Not saying take the whole fleet out to the asteroid belt and away from any viable targets.

I mentioned that in my first post.

As a minimum, I would run a ship or ships at irregular intervals to the monitoring stations, and hold them there for a week at a time as an immediate reaction force. I would avoid any sort of regular patrol schedule to avoid having my ships picked off in detail.
 
It would have to be an affirmative not, an absence.
I agree - an explicit prohibition would be required.

Except for that one book, it has been held that you can't do this.

No, it hasn't. A lot of people have assumed that it can't be done, but the one rule on it I can recall anywhere simply makes it rather difficult.

Reverse engineering jump courses wasn't really discussed at all outside TNE that I can recall. CT Bk2 doesn't discuss it. Bk5 doesn't, either. MT doesn't. TNE does, but only in that one book. T4 core and FF&S don't, I can't find the rest of my T4 books. T20 specifically didn't address it in the core. I don't recall it being in T5 (checking thursday's draft) - it's not prohibited, and mention is made of the entry flash and the realspace jumpline needing to be clear.

And the rules in MT and T5 definitely provide hints at it being doable.
 
Just one more question to add controversy: are there anti ship mines in Traveller?

I envision they being as either space ones (mostly depolyed in orbit, and alike the Guardian close defense satellite shown in MT:COACC), and as gas giant mines, deployed to difficult refueling.

As someone said in this same thread, nukes in atmosphere (the one on a GG in this case) have more devastating effect than in space, and, gas skimming being an already dangerous maneuver, a nuke impact that could not be crippling in space might well destabilize the ship enough to make a catastrophic drive in the GG.

There are not rules for any of this in Traveller, AFAIK, but I guess those could also be factors in defending a system.
 
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… given the technology, one can envision the combatants floating specially constructed meson batteries deep within the atmospheres of gas giants, where other weapons could not reach them and where the enemy would be obliged to rely solely on meson fire to counter it or would have to enter the atmosphere and face conducting battle while within a gravity well and dense atmosphere. Makes for one deadly combat scenario - though we'd need to come up with our own rules.)



Y... uh, okay. "Phased" battles don't tend to be as successful for the attacker as the sudden overwhelming thrust, but I guess there might be specific strategic circumstances favoring that kind of attack.
….

Hi,

Thanks for the responses. Based on everything everyone has contributed here, it kind of seems to me that some form of defense around the gas giants would make a lot of sense too, even if this means that the defender might have to reduce the defensive forces around the main asset in system a bit. (Or in other words even though concentrating all your defenses may be desirable, the layout of the system, and the fact that an attacker may only be interested in using this particular system to refuel and move on may make having to have some sort of defense in those locations a necessity).

As for the second quote above, I was thinking more that the “defense” would have to be phased (not the attack), as if an attacker jumps in to refuel and encounters some local resistance, any relief that the local defending forces may ever hope to receive may be hours, days, or at least a week or potentially more away. As such, any thought that Attacker Fleet “A” enters a system defended by Defender fleet “B” means that the entirety of Fleet “A” engages the entirety of fleet “B” in one massive battles is probably unlikely, as instead fleet “A” may instead only initially encounter a small part of fleet “B” and then either leave, or if they elects to stay around, the rest of fleet “B”, or parts of it (especially if the defender elects to hold back some units at other points of interest – fearing that this initial incursion is only a feint, may not arrive till later .

Because of situations like this, I could potentially see an attacker jumping in to a gas giant, engaging what defenses might be there, refueling, and then waiting a bit to see if the defender reacts. If the defender begins to react, either dispatching a part of his fleet to counter the incursion, either by moving toward the Gas Giant on maneuver drives or by making a “jump” with all or parts of his defending fleet, which may be suspected by the attacker as a possible micro jump to his location, he may then try and counter by either making his own “jump” which may either then be completely out of system, or which may be his own micro-jump to either the major point of interest (say Earth in our solar system), a secondary point of interest (say Mars, or some mining and manufacturing facilities in the asteroid blet in our Solar system), or even a location along our Sun’ 100D limit that might allow the attacker to sit and wait to see if the defender does appear out of jump at the gas giant that the attacker had vacated, or whether that jump had been a feint and the defender has re-emerged somewhere still close to Earth himself.

If the attacker were to exit a micro jump near the Sun’s 100D limit if he was careful to try and pick a location that would;

- put him only a few days out from Earth, close enough to hopefully reach it, engage any remaining defenders and then conduct a raid before the defender could then counter re-act with the parts of the fleet that are now out of location;
- but which is far enough out from Earth, that if the defender tried to spring a trap (by exiting his micro-jump back near Earth – perhaps also - somewhere near the Sun’s 100d orbit)

then the attacker could then decide whether an attack or retreat would be worthwhile.

I guess to me, what this discussion has started to bring to mind is that a solar system is not just one homogenous place where if an attacker enters he will invariably encounter the defender, but rather the solar system itself is a microcosm of the larger star map itself and that units within the solar system can be moved around in various ways to try and gain an advantage just as on the grander scale (using the 5th Frontier War map as an example) the main commander of one side may move whole fleets from hex to hex to try and gain an advantage in forces and force battles and retreats by the enemy.

Of course as noted by others the longer an attacker stays in system there is a chance that the defender may be able to marshal forces from other nearby systems to move in. Though conversely the attacker may be trying to make just that happen so that he can then jump out to one of these other systems, as well.

PS. It just dawned on me that maybe an analogy might be that while the grand strategy of moving fleets from system to system (or hex to hex in the 5th Frontier War game) might be viewed as kind of a form of the game "chess" on a grand scale, the actual maneuvering of those fleets in each system (or hex) may also be its own form of the game "chess" on a slightly smaller scale.
 
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Yes, the conclusion is known: the true point is to outguess your opponent.

As in all the times communications were so slow as for each force to be effectively out of contact from others, feints , bluffs and outguesing are the key points to win the war. Hence the importance (can not be overstated) of intelligence in those kinds of wars.
 
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Hi,

Because of that I think that maybe there's something missing in between a game like the 5th Frontier War and High Guard. I guess it would maybe be something more in line with what I've sometimes seen referred to as an "operational" level game when talking about real world naval battles, where the players would command the fleets, squadrons and such in system, where contacts could then be played out with High Guard or something along those lines.
 
Because of that I think that maybe there's something missing in between a game like the 5th Frontier War and High Guard. I guess it would maybe be something more in line with what I've sometimes seen referred to as an "operational" level game when talking about real world naval battles, where the players would command the fleets, squadrons and such in system, where contacts could then be played out with High Guard or something along those lines.


It looks as if my various screeds over the years have not been in vain... ;)

Traveller nearly completely lacks an "operational" or "grand tactical" space combat rules set. Apart from the player-focused LBB:2 and Mayday, in CT we've only the extremely narrowly focused HG2 which concentrates on actual combat to such an extent that movement is almost abstracted away and TCS/FFW which presents a very limited strategic picture. We've no game or rules set which that presents combat within a stellar system, no game or rules set which tackles movement within a stellar, no game or rules set which presents the "movement to contact"(1) aspect we know must occur in Traveller space combat.

Until those deficits, and other deficits involving sensors/scouting and logistics/endurance, are addressed our picture of Traveller space combat is woefully incomplete.

In this thread, as in so many discussions over the last thirty-plus years, we're conversing in a vacuum.

1 - By "movement to contact" I'm referring to the period/range in which enemy ships can be detected but cannot be targeted.
 
It looks as if my various screeds over the years have not been in vain... ;)

Traveller nearly completely lacks an "operational" or "grand tactical" space combat rules set. Apart from the player-focused LBB:2 and Mayday, in CT we've only the extremely narrowly focused HG2 which concentrates on actual combat to such an extent that movement is almost abstracted away and TCS/FFW which presents a very limited strategic picture. We've no game or rules set which that presents combat within a stellar system, no game or rules set which tackles movement within a stellar, no game or rules set which presents the "movement to contact"(1) aspect we know must occur in Traveller space combat.

Until those deficits, and other deficits involving sensors/scouting and logistics/endurance, are addressed our picture of Traveller space combat is woefully incomplete.

In this thread, as in so many discussions over the last thirty-plus years, we're conversing in a vacuum.

1 - By "movement to contact" I'm referring to the period/range in which enemy ships can be detected but cannot be targeted.

Hi,

Looking back at a lot of the games I've played in the past I guess I can't really think of anything similar that might fit this bill :( .

I know that Star Vikings at least acknowledged that there may be other surf in a solar system than just one planet and orbit, and I see from Boardgamegeek.com that the game 'The Air Eaters Strike Back' appears to have a hexgrid map of our solar system, but that's all I really know about that game.

I'm curious if anyone else might be familiar with a game that covers a whole solar system that allows you to maneuver fleets/squadrons around and resolve conflicts on a tactical(?) scale?
 
a nuke impact taht could not be crippling in space might well destabilize the ship enough to make a catastrophic drive in the GG.

Three are not rules for any of this in Traveller, AFAIK, but I guess those could also be factors in defending a system.

In atmosphere, a large nuc explosion within 1km would blow all but the largest ships like a leaf in a hurricane. Assume crew as now being scrambled eggs...
 
I'm curious if anyone else might be familiar with a game that covers a whole solar system that allows you to maneuver fleets/squadrons around and resolve conflicts on a tactical(?) scale?

Triplanetary provides the map.
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3637/triplanetary

I've wargamed system level combat using Triplanetary as a base using vector movement with a one G-day scale with combat shifting to the Mayday scale for tactical operations. Even using worst-case jump rules (wide, random dispersion from the target hex, ships randomly straggling in over three days spread) the invader can usually set the tempo.
 
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