General Tech Level Theft in the Third Imperium?
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Commander Truestar
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IMTU, for what I refer to as low trade or ghost worlds, I assume a periodic Sub Trader and one or more handfuls (depends where they are on a main, etc) of tramp freighters with low jumps or high expenses(due to older systems that need frequent fixing)
These kinds of worlds can also benefit from "mutually beneficial" relationships with smugglers and always have to worry about pirates and other illegals looking for a place to lie low and carry out repairs...
The original Caribbean pirates benefited from local colony authorities’ collusion in trading cheap goods that could be resold. and support obtained.
Pirates in Colonial America
Patrick Henry on March 23, 1775, said to the Second Virginia Convention, “Give me Liberty or Give me Death!” in Saint John’s Episcopal Church in...
Spinward Flow
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It's an issue I took up with my LBB S3 Spinward Marches (re)mapping in 1105 thread, relatively early on.
The way I "squared the circle" for Yori, Dentus, Kinorb is that there was a mix up by someone somewhere that didn't get caught on review.
LBB S3:
- Yori = C360757-D
- Dentus = C979500-A
- Kinorb = A663659-5
LBB S3 Spinward Marches (re)mapping in 1105:
- Yori = A360757-D
- Dentus = A979500-A
- Kinorb = C663659-5
Spinward Flow
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Then let's test the proposition, shall we?Should be.
Isn't.
Regina UWP (minus TL): A788899
LBB3.81, p12 duplicated TTB, p85 ... TECH LEVEL TABLE
- Starport: A = +6DM
- Size: 7 = +0DM
- Atmosphere: 8 = +0DM
- Hydrographics: 8 = +0DM
- Population: 8 = +0DM
- Government: 9 = +0DM
1D6+6 = 7-12 range
So TL=C is "within range of being legal" except that there are SO MANY SOURCES which explicitly state otherwise in CT.
- LBB A1, p2, p12
- LBB A3, p8, p13
- LBB A12, p24
- LBB S3, p20
- LBB7, p31, p41
- TTB, p95, p150, p155
- Fifth Frontier War, p5-7
Regina/Regina/Spinward Marches as TL=C is the OUTLIER ... not the NORM.
The Spinward Campaign, p26 incorporates the Regina TL=C notation ... but the campaign is explicitly set "after the war" (without specifying WHICH ONE since there have been several Frontier Wars in the Spinward Marches to choose from). At best, the Spinward Campaign, p2 contains this snippet:
Now if that's referring to the Fifth Frontier War (and I have every expectation to believe that it ought to), then that means that the Spinward Campaign is set ~1111+ ... not in the 1105-1107(-ish) "Golden Era" on the timeline.
In other words, Regina can be TL=C post Fifth Frontier War (by RAW) ... but is TL=A pre Fifth Frontier War if you really want to push it.
Office hours for "Clue By Four" instruction, if needed, are posted in everyone's history course syllabus.
Any questions?
Didn't think so.
Which suggests it's an intentional retcon, not a typo.
Commander Truestar
SOC-13
First, I agree with the position that the reference is after the 5FW.Then let's test the proposition, shall we?
Regina UWP (minus TL): A788899
Regina/Regina/Spinward Marches as TL=C is the OUTLIER ... not the NORM.
The Spinward Campaign, p26 incorporates the Regina TL=C notation ... but the campaign is explicitly set "after the war" (without specifying WHICH ONE since there have been several Frontier Wars in the Spinward Marches to choose from). At best, the Spinward Campaign, p2 contains this snippet:
Now if that's referring to the Fifth Frontier War (and I have every expectation to believe that it ought to), then that means that the Spinward Campaign is set ~1111+ ... not in the 1105-1107(-ish) "Golden Era" on the timeline.
In other words, Regina can be TL=C post Fifth Frontier War (by RAW) ... but is TL=A pre Fifth Frontier War if you really want to push it.
Office hours for "Clue By Four" instruction, if needed, are posted in everyone's history course syllabus.
Any questions?
Didn't think so.
That make sense both with the overall ITU history and the document cues and statements
I also agree that Regina "can and should be" an outlier, because so many dice rolls can so easily create an outlier.
That said, I glean what I can from the books, games, etc and correct it for what is found in Don's Errata:
There, it clearly says
"Page 152, Regina Subsector data (correction): Regina (0310) should have TL code of “C”."
"Page 6, Mustered Out, second paragraph (correction): The information on Regina should be (1910-A788899-C)"
"Regina (1910) has the wrong hex location, and should have TL code of “C”"
I can go on but....
So, there is no guessing needed. Regina was mis-identified and Don's Errata corrected it
That said, I updated all my records based on Don's errata and I use that as a base.
Past that, I accept the dice were odd but I have the correct data and must now explain it in terms of what could possibly explain such odd
results as I have been given
Going back to (because it's easy..not because I want to beat a dead horse) Pimane(Mora)
As I've said earlier in this thread, "My read" explains that this was an early boom mining system in the early days of Imperial exploration and
settlement. Say 450-500 TI. Back then, Jump (Suggested as we have not been given hard dates I have found) was limited to J-4 and J-2 was
much more common.
So, Pimane was settled and mined out.
Eventually, the XBoat routes were established and Pimane wasn't on any route, but as long as the mines produced, ships came for ore
and/or processed metals and minerals, etc.
Sadly, like many a mining ghost town out in the US west, the mines played out and Pimane had nothing to offer
The people who could, left. Ships stopped visiting and the system was reduced to the dribs and drabs from the Spinward Main.
Eventually, the March Trader program created a good number of Subsidized traders and benefited from a "Semi-irregular" schedule of visits
But, because the system has little to sell...they can't bring in much of anything worth selling from the traders.
They are also forced to trade for survivability, to keep their sealed environment running....So, no one is hoarding secret wealth.
That means that tramp traders aim for the gas giant and even Subsidized Merchant captains look for a reason to bypass them
The above reasonably describes how a system can be 2 parsecs away from an LSP market world with a tech level of "D" and still be as
destitute as it is. the Imperium is not there to "pay the freight" so the people of Pimane can live a decent life. Or, even a survivable life.
So, they struggle on in a subsistence existense which makes sense out of the Dom-corrected OTU data.
It's not an outlier! It's equally likely to have been 12 as to have been 10 (or any particular value in the range since it's a linear 1D roll) once the rest of the world stats are determined.
Spinward Flow
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"Your Honor, based upon a preponderance of the voluminous evidence available we have determined that the overwhelming majority of evidence available should be ignored and discarded from this case in favor of a single exception to all of that documentary evidence that goes against us! And with that, we rest our case."
But you're right, it looks like an intentional retcon by someone in a position to make it (author/editor control) regardless of the numerous precedents to the contrary already published and canonized. To my eyes, it looks like an ego driven fiat decision lacking in justification or backstory/history. Someone changed it because they COULD ... so they DID ... consequences be damned ... and no one stopped them.
At the risk of invoking a mildly infamous supervillain persona on Youtube ... Without Respect, We Reject.
I, personally, reject the retcon BECAUSE it is an outlier that disagrees with EVERYTHING published up to that point.
Take a look at LBB6, p55 if you don't believe me.
Your mileage may vary, of course.
You're welcome to do that, and i won't argue.
Seems to me that they had a narrative they liked (rival for the sector capitol once the smoke clears -- and with good reason), and adjusted the stats to fit.
Also (not going to look it up, just from memory) the effects on shipbuilding capability when you can no longer just import the drives for a "battle cruiser" from Rhylanor for a local build. HG means you need higher indigenous TL to build and maintain what are now the ships of the line -- just having a Class A srarport isn't enough.
Spinward Flow
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To be fair, for anything military (as opposed to paramilitary) you would be looking at wanting to live TL=15 regardless. The thing is, does the presence of a Naval Base functionally mean you have a "workaround" to (lower) tech level limits?
Although I don't think it was ever stated anywhere, the way that I would rule as a Referee is that worlds with a type A starport and a Naval Base can build military starships up to the tech level of the polity in question (TL=F for the Imperial Navy in this example). So even though Regina/Regina is TL=A, the shipyard there can do naval military construction at TL=F, as a matter of "permission" (in the, is that rules legal sense).
Such a ruling is one of the few ways you can get around tech level limitations on military construction projects (and maintenance and repairs, too) when dealing with a diversity of tech levels spread across sectors of space. If you don't have the "military base loophole/workaround" option, then all of the TL=F starships in the Imperial Navy inventory HAVE TO rotate back to Rhylanor, Mora, Glisten or Trin (the only TL=F star systems in the sector) for annual overhauls and maintenance ... which is completely impractical from a frontier border fleet deployment posture standpoint.
My point here being that if such a notion of "naval bases waive local tech supply chain limitations" (for simplicity and sanity reasons) then whether Regina/Regina is TL=A or TL=C makes no difference, because the imperial naval base would be operating at a TL=F standard regardless of the "local" host world technology level.
Besides, last I checked, the Imperial Navy hasn't been in the habit of building much of anything (military) to TL=A or TL=C standards for CENTURIES, so the ... impetus (if you can call it that) ... for bumping Regina up to TL=C "just because" still doesn't make much sense, even from a demand point of view.
The IISS however ... that's a different story ... but they're mostly (mostly...) paramilitary.
Ok, looking at that region... One ship every quarter or so. Say 3 subsidized trade routes. It is on a Main.
mike wightman
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Regina doesn't become sector capital - that remains at Mora. Norris elevates himself to be recognised as such (there is no designated position of sector duke, it is a first among equals thing).
By the way I agree with Spinward Flow - Regina remains TL A.
(there are many other official errata retcons I completely disagree with and so ignore)
Most of Don's errata is not due to MWM deciding "hey this is wrong" but rather the loudest voices in the fanon wanting changes made to match their pet ideas.
Ask this - what is achieved by elevating Regina to TL C via retcon? What issue does it solve.
mike wightman
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Nope. The High Guard rules only apply to a High Guard universe. The OTU has type A srarports being able to build up to TL15 regardless of local TL.
Every IN naval base if TL15 regardless of world TL too.
Spinward Flow
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I agree.
It soothes someone's ego, for reasons that by now have been long forgotten and no longer matter.
I agree here too.
Well ... so long as you're living in a Small Ship Universe of LBB2 standard drive construction (the only meaningful bottleneck for what you're talking about). As soon as you want to build something larger than 5000+ tons, you've got no choice but to go LBB5 with custom drives, and at that point you're kind of stuck with the limitations of the local tech level.
However, I would add one caveat here for a more nuanced understanding of the problem.
If you accept my "naval base workaround" to local tech level limits for the construction of military starships, I would further clarify that the workaround applies to CONSTRUCTION ONLY. In other words, if you're a military contractor and you're given naval architect design specs, you can build what the design calls for (given sufficient supplies).
However ... (!!!) ... for the initial DESIGN process that generates those naval architect design specs, the "naval base workaround" DOES NOT APPLY.
Therefore ... a location such as Efate or Strouden (or wherever) that is below TL=F cannot create NEW starship designs and naval architect spec sheets for ship classes at TL=F. Such "first in class" NEW starship designs MUST be made at a shipyard that can "natively" construct ships at that tech level. Therefore, any "new" TL=F military starship designs that originate within the Spinward Marches sector must be built FIRST at either Glisten, Rhylanor, Mora or Trin for their first in class qualification and shakedown cruises to validate the design. Only AFTER that has been completed can the verified naval architect design plans get "farmed out" to other star systems with shipyards and naval bases to construct copies of the new class at other lower tech world shipyards (such as Efate, Strouden, etc.).
Point being that "below tech threshold" shipyard+naval base combos can COPY military designs originated elsewhere (given enough time, tools, tech manuals, so to speak) ... but they can't ORIGINATE NEW military designs indigenously.
It's not much of a bottleneck, given sufficient time to transmit design spec files around ... but it does manage to limit "who can build what where" in the sense that NEW TL=F designs can only originate from TL=F worlds. Everywhere else with a naval base (and a type A starport) can build those designs, but they can't "add to the library" of TL=F designs to choose from and are thus limited to "whatever designs they already have on file" rather than just being able to build something "new" at TL=F whenever the need (or desire) arises. That way, you've still got a "logistical tail" extending all the way back to the few TL=F worlds capable of doing the original work from scratch.
Hope that makes sense, since I might not have explained the idea adequately.
Which was my point -- the HG changes to the TL paradigm meant that you could no longer build ships at TL-A that you could (at least implicitly, by category if not literal description*) in LBB2/3, which drove the TL upgrade retcon.
-------------------------
* that is, "front-line warships" at an out-of-universe period when Kinunir counted as such, but not in a HG universe where where "front-line warships" are far beyond LBB2 scale.
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Don’t know why that is, back in the day I just figured Regina had rustic charm and didn’t concern myself with modeling the economics of politics.
mike wightman
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Only if you base your universe only on High Guard rules - which the OTU does not.
Using the HG paradigm the Regina shipyards could not construct Kinunir class vessels no matter TL A or C - so why retcon to C?
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