And moreso, that chunk doesn't include all of the terran descendant waves, even. Pockets of terran separatists went out various odd places, annoyed to keep finding humans everywhere....
Does Terra of IY 1106 really know anything about 1969AD?
- Thread starter Shonner
- Start date
And moreso, that chunk doesn't include all of the terran descendant waves, even. Pockets of terran separatists went out various odd places, annoyed to keep finding humans everywhere....
So how did others round up the books? It's not so impossible at all, nor would it have to be done in a heavy handed manner, they might say they were preserving them.
What value does history have? If it is unimportant, it might not have survived at all. If there is some importance? Then those in power will seek to control it, same as today.
Not to mention that the library data is the official history, not dusty old books. Question it and the average citizen will consider you a traitor, make a big deal out of it and wind up on the gash for an extended stay.
What others? How many books do you know of that have been lost to book burners once they were actually distributed (I don't count books that were still at the printers)? There's a profound difference between burning SOME copies of a book and burning ALL copies of a book. A difference that becomes a lot more pronounced once you go from hand-copied books to printed books and logically would be orders of magnitude more pronounced once you go from printed books to printed AND electronically stored books.
Says you, but you don't provide any evidence that it is possible, nor any concrete suggestions of how to go about it.
Well, this is a suggestion, I suppose, but it's not what I would call a concrete suggestion. Not a practical suggestion.
How many copies of how many different books do you think you're talking about? Just what information is it you're talking about falsifying?
Name one book that every government on Earth is taking active measures to suppress right now. Or just one book that any government on Earth has successfully managed to suppress lately.
You really think that all 15 trillion people in the Imperium would meekly follow an Imperial Edict to falsify an old historical fact (assuming for purposes of argument that there was an old historical fact that the Emperor would care enough about to try to suppress -- a laughable assumption to begin with)? I don't even think all 11,000 planetary leaders would and I'm positive that a LOT of history teachers wouldn't. As for actually destroying 3000 year old encyclopedias, I can just imagine how the museum curators would react.
You still haven't told me what you would do if your government told you to turn in your encyclopedias and history books.
Hans
It is also much easier than print. So much for that 'so much for that'.
It does happen today. But it doesn't happen on the gargantuan scale you're talking about nor with anywhere near the kind of success you're postulating.
No more generalities, please. Some cogent arguments instead would be nice. Try starting with answers to these questions:
<cut&paste>
Name one book that every government on Earth is taking active measures to suppress right now. Or just one book that any government on Earth has successfully managed to suppress lately.
[snip]
You still haven't told me what you would do if your government told you to turn in your encyclopedias and history books.
[snip]
You still haven't told me what you would do if your government told you to turn in your encyclopedias and history books.
Hans
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What concrete evidence do you have of any books or electronic media surviving 3500 years? Sounds to be a pretty thin hypothesis you are basing your whole argument on.
History is like a tapesty, start replacing threads and you can weave a different picture. It can be subtle changes, and no I don't think a few upset museum curators or history teachers would cause the Imperium to lose any sleep.
What would I do if stormtroopers came for my books? I'd give the books to them, I have a family to care for.
What if the Imperium uncovered evidence that the Vilani had shot Apollo 13 with a laser, something that would embolden the Solomani in their prejudice? Do you think they would release it? Probably not with the emotional attachment that it would have. The powers that be will control information as they see fit, people won't be getting information from 3500 year old books but the library data on their computers and I'm sure the Imperium will have no problem managing that data.
History is like a tapesty, start replacing threads and you can weave a different picture. It can be subtle changes, and no I don't think a few upset museum curators or history teachers would cause the Imperium to lose any sleep.
What would I do if stormtroopers came for my books? I'd give the books to them, I have a family to care for.
What if the Imperium uncovered evidence that the Vilani had shot Apollo 13 with a laser, something that would embolden the Solomani in their prejudice? Do you think they would release it? Probably not with the emotional attachment that it would have. The powers that be will control information as they see fit, people won't be getting information from 3500 year old books but the library data on their computers and I'm sure the Imperium will have no problem managing that data.
Just because materials exist doesn't mean that they are available or publicized.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_Enoch_Scroll
"There is no absolute public proof of its existence, but according to the former chief editor of the official Dead Sea Scrolls editorial team, John Strugnell (deceased 2007), the scroll is well preserved, and microfilmed."
There are other scrolls in private collections and it is doubtful that anyone knows for certain exactly how many scrolls truly exist but are privately held. and not available for study. Not only can books and documents be kept in private collections, but artifacts, as well. Take note of Gerald Lankester Harding...."Without his efforts many of the scrolls may have disappeared into private collections never to be seen again."
Of course many many scrolls did disappear into private collections anyways.
The original Aramaic Book of Enoch (among others), while not 'suppressed' by a government is still just as unavailable as if it were. How many others are there like this? No one knows for sure.
Also, materials don't have to be destroyed or altered to be considered useless for research so long as the organization that is involved in such a 'suppression' can convince others that the materials are false, or worthless for research, or else that false manufactured information is actually true. Canon has an event that shows such a widespread manipulation attempt succeeding beyond the Imperium's expectations ( succeeding too well, actually ); Psychohistory* and the psionic suppressions. There may have been other uses of psychohistory manipulations or is it deliberately stated that the Imperium used that technique exactly one time......
An organization might perpetrate hoaxes to distort or confuse historical record in order to further its own agendas while supporting the idea that it is true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
Electronic/digital storage is easier to copy and disseminate, but that also means that it is easier to manipulate and disseminate. Or easier to disseminate deliberately false information. Just look up 'conspiracy theories', or 'urban legends' on-line to see the sort of ideas that are pushed as truth, or primary sources, making it that much more difficult for far-future historians to search through and making it more likely that far-future historians will make mistakes and errors.
*fictional science based on Cliodynamics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliodynamics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_Enoch_Scroll
"There is no absolute public proof of its existence, but according to the former chief editor of the official Dead Sea Scrolls editorial team, John Strugnell (deceased 2007), the scroll is well preserved, and microfilmed."
There are other scrolls in private collections and it is doubtful that anyone knows for certain exactly how many scrolls truly exist but are privately held. and not available for study. Not only can books and documents be kept in private collections, but artifacts, as well. Take note of Gerald Lankester Harding...."Without his efforts many of the scrolls may have disappeared into private collections never to be seen again."
Of course many many scrolls did disappear into private collections anyways.
The original Aramaic Book of Enoch (among others), while not 'suppressed' by a government is still just as unavailable as if it were. How many others are there like this? No one knows for sure.
Also, materials don't have to be destroyed or altered to be considered useless for research so long as the organization that is involved in such a 'suppression' can convince others that the materials are false, or worthless for research, or else that false manufactured information is actually true. Canon has an event that shows such a widespread manipulation attempt succeeding beyond the Imperium's expectations ( succeeding too well, actually ); Psychohistory* and the psionic suppressions. There may have been other uses of psychohistory manipulations or is it deliberately stated that the Imperium used that technique exactly one time......
An organization might perpetrate hoaxes to distort or confuse historical record in order to further its own agendas while supporting the idea that it is true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
Electronic/digital storage is easier to copy and disseminate, but that also means that it is easier to manipulate and disseminate. Or easier to disseminate deliberately false information. Just look up 'conspiracy theories', or 'urban legends' on-line to see the sort of ideas that are pushed as truth, or primary sources, making it that much more difficult for far-future historians to search through and making it more likely that far-future historians will make mistakes and errors.
*fictional science based on Cliodynamics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliodynamics
Being Austrian, I can tell you one book that is officially suppressed and posession of will get you 14 years in prison. Anyone care to guess? I've read it (in America) and can say it is really a dumb book, and supressing it rather trivial. But there is that pesky emotional attachment thing again, and personally I don't care if it is supressed forever. Guess I'd be a good Citizen of the Imperium. 
No, it's an extremely solid hypothesis, firmly founded on facts and constructed of basic probablity:
<cut&paste&edit a bit>
There are encyclopedias and book collections being buried in time capsules. There are plans to put sattelites in orbit with knowledge repositories. The first Vilani spies to visit Earth will buy, beg, and steal all the encyclopedias they can get their hands on. The first Vilani tourists to visit peacefully will buy copies. Outposts and settlements from Earth will bring along vast library databases. The long range missions will set off with as comprehensive collection of Earth cultural information as can be crammed into the hulls. The AAB will send people with the express purpose of collecting all the knowledge they possibly can and put it in the next edition of their library data. The 25th (or whatever the number) Edition of the Encyclopedia Brittanica will be spread from Dingir to Vland in the days of the Rule of Man.
The OTU, as far as I interpret the available evidence, has a vast number of copies of encyclopedias, newspaper archives, biographies, travelogues, history books, etc. from the 20th Century surviving into the Classic Era. Just look at how much material survives from the days where books were handwritten and existed in only a few copies each. Compare that to the ease with which information is copied nowadays. Look at the deliberate efforts being made today to preserve information for posterity. And can you refute a single one of the examples I gave in the paragraph above, let alone all of them?
No, but they would cause originals and copies of the originals being suppressed to be hidden away against a saner day.
I don't see why not. It was 3000 years ago. What if historians found evidence that the French caused the death of Henry I by poisoning his lampreys? Do you think they would release it? I certainly do. And that was only 900 years ago.
In any case, now you're making up new facts. Let's stick to what has already been recorded in millions and millions and more millions of encyclopedias and history books about the 20th Century.
But you have no rational explanation for how the Imperium has this tremendous power but only uses it to micro-manage history books but not to affect contemporary events.
I'm just as sure that the Imperium does NOT have the power to force all its high-tech, high-population worlds to accept such an tremendously intrusive interference with their internal affairs, nor the politcal will to force it on even a handful of its member worlds. Far too much political ill will generated for no useful purpose.
Hans
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So there's not a single copy stored anywhere in Austria?Being Austrian, I can tell you one book that is officially suppressed and posession of will get you 14 years in prison. Anyone care to guess? I've read it (in America) and can say it is really a dumb book, and supressing it rather trivial. But there is that pesky emotional attachment thing again, and personally I don't care if it is supressed forever. Guess I'd be a good Citizen of the Imperium.
And when, in a couple of generations at most, that law is repealed, it will be impossible for Autstrians to procure copies of it from anywhere else on Earth?
Hans
I guess that's why there isn't a copy of Darwin's On the Origin of the Species to be found anywhere on Earth.
Wait... That's not the case, is it?
Not the same thing: Psychohistory. Although I suppose a psychohistory project aimed at getting everyone in Charted Space to falsify their history is theoretically possible. Only, we know for a fact that no such project has ever been attempted. (See below).
It is stated that the only large-scale experiment performed led to the Psionic Suppressions (which is why it's the only large-scale experiment that has been performed). And stated in authorial voice no less: Psychohistory/secret.
I guess that's why The Great Worldwide Jewish Conspiracy is mentioned in every encyclopedia and history book as a true and factual organization.
Wait... That's not the case, is it?
Editing any one electronic storage device is easier (Unless it's read-only, that is. Which a whole lot of electronic copies of various encyclopedia and history books just happen to be). Editing millions and millions and more millions of electronic storage devices spread across a hundred thousand worlds is flat out impossible.
Let me repeat that for emphasis: Flat. Out. Impossible.
That being said, I'm sure there will be some "Princes in the Tower" type stories where some evidence is ignored and some ambiguities glossed over. I'm not claiming that the Classic Era picture of the 20th Century will be accurate in every detail. That would be an absurd notion. What I'm claiming is that the overview will be "substantially correct and stable".
Hans
Being Austrian, I can tell you one book that is officially suppressed and posession of will get you 14 years in prison. Anyone care to guess? I've read it (in America) and can say it is really a dumb book, and supressing it rather trivial. But there is that pesky emotional attachment thing again, and personally I don't care if it is supressed forever. Guess I'd be a good Citizen of the Imperium.
And it's been available on the net for some time in ebook... and I'm aware of several Austrians who have downloaded it, and rendered similar judgement on its contents.
If an Austrian really wants a copy, all they need is a buddy in the US willing to put it in an innocuously named zipfile.
Edit: It took me 30 sec to find a downloadable in english. 20 in german. Much of that was the typing time.
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????
This response has nothing to do with the comment I made.
seriously, wtf?
In fact, destroying or making public demands/changes in a network will only invoke the Streisand Effect. Of course, the speed at which information travels between worlds would minimize that I guess, depending on the world's information cycle rate and the population's interest in events that don't have any real direct influence on their lives.
On the other hand, Darwin's work might even be trivialized as a quaint theory similar to how we view 'luminiferous aether' and not referred to by 'serious' scientists, if it is even referred to at all. Besides, given the histories of Darrians, Zhodani, and Vilani transplanted to alien worlds even as primitive mythologies are being formulated within their primitive beginnings of language and culture, or even being provided with habitats tailored specifically for them, there might exist some fairly strong evidence that points to Intelligent Design...for the Vargr, especially. The Solomani were left wild to evolve within their native habitat without the influence of the Ancients ( assuming the Ancients nevercame back to tinker with them ).
This would also have the benefit of not pissing off religious dictatorships or religious autocracies in the OTU . Those forms of government are also more likely at hi-populations which suggests that such a population might be larger and more powerful/influential than the entire rest of a subsector with only 'average-sized' populations.
So perhaps Darwin isn't deleted ( Streisand Effect ), but simply not mentioned at all.
As described, psychohistory is little more than a method of prediction, and given the chaotic nature of the subject its attempting to forecast, it would be susceptible to the butterfly effect. Its a model, nothing more, to be used to forecast the effectiveness of psyops in order to choose the best method, in this case. The psionic suppressions are evidence that the Imperium, not only has the means and the will to attempt a massive work of social engineering that uses the control of information to change behavioral patterns on a huge scale, but that it is fully capable of succeeding at such. The fact that there is 'secret' information about the psionic suppressions is proof that the Imperium is also fully capable of controlling/hiding information when it deems that necessary.
Yet the idea was accepted as truth by many people, including Henry Ford and Winston Churchill. Even some 90 years after they were proven to be a hoax, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is still taken as being true and accurate by some people and they create data entries about their belief that its true, thus inflating the amount of bad data. Who knows? maybe Imperial historians may come to the conclusion that the allegations of fraud are themselves a hoax perpetrated to hide the true nature of that document. Unless it somehow remains in the news or public discourse, any data about that document will be a couple of millenia old.
sigh
Its not about deleting or changing available information.....its about social engineering to change the population's beliefs concerning which information is true and which is false. The Psionic Suppressions, and the hiding of the true nature of those suppressions, are proof the the Imperium is quite capable of that.
Perhaps you should do a tiny bit of reading about psyops and psychological manipulations and think about their applications for propaganda, advertising and social engineering instead of just worrying about the number of encyclopedias that survived 3000yrs from a single planet and spread across known space.
Not suprising, depressing however.
Darwin's theory is one that a sizable group of people have tried very hard to convince others is false and worthless and that their contrary beliefs are actually true.
But it isn't.
"[Darwin] published his theory with compelling evidence for evolution in his 1859 book On the Origin of Species.[1][2] The scientific community and much of the general public came to accept evolution as a fact in his lifetime.[3] However, it was not until the emergence of the modern evolutionary synthesis from the 1930s to the 1950s that a broad consensus developed that natural selection was the basic mechanism of evolution.[4] In modified form, Darwin's scientific discovery is the unifying theory of the life sciences, explaining the diversity of life.[5][6] [Wikipedia]
I was talking about what success people have had suppressing him up to today.
They didn't succeed. The wave of anti-psi paranoia that swept the Imperium was the unforseen result of the experiment. The Psionic Suppressions is the reaction to the results of the first and only large-scale psychohistoric experiment.
The fact that the Traveller wiki lists some information as secret is proof that the editors of the wiki think that there is information that isn't common knowledge held by all player characters. It's not secret as in "Only the Imperium " knows. For one thing, I imagine that all the various psionic institutes have their own records. It's secret as in "GM's information".
But it's a really tiny number of people who still believe in it. I'm pretty sure you're not going to be able to find any reputable encyclopedia that still lists it as true. Historians today are usually capable of detecting massive bias in sources. I doubt historians of the future would all be incompetent fools.
Yep. And 99% of the available sources will debunk the 1% that state it as truth. You're constantly jumping from "Some may" to "Everybody will", a logical deduction that isn't. Logical, that is.
And even if you happened to be right about this one example, I refer you to the last bit in my previous post (itself copied from an earlier post), the bit you deleted:
me said:
The Psionic Suppressions are proof that the Imperium is quite incapable of that.
Numerous common fallacies are proof that common fallacies do enter the historical records. (Numerous debunkings of the same fallacies is proof that this does not usually go unchallenged). But a few misconceptions doesn't amount to much in a vast agglomoration of historical data. Hence I stand by my claim that while the Classic Era picture of the 20th Century will not be accurate in every detail, it will be substantially correct and stable.
Hans
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Starviking
SOC-13
I think it all depends on the political leanings of the populace for whom the history is served. For example, there is a near universal belief in Ireland that the Duke of Wellington, born in Ireland, on being accused of being Irish stated:
"Being born in a stable does not make one a horse". (boo-hiss!)
In actual fact, it was the Irish Nationalist leader, Daniel O'Connell who said that of the Duke in 1844. (boo-hiss?)
So, less than 200 years after the statement the complete reverse is believed, because it backs up the comforting political pre-conceptions of the populace.
What comforting pre-conceptions will twist history from AD 5600?
Actually, the word is "still" not "less than" 200 years later. Fallacies like that develop like urban legends (or as self-serving propaganda by a powerful interest group) and persist despite being debunked if there is sufficient emotional reason to reject the debunking.
Still, what is generally known about the Duke of Wellington is, I believe "substantially correct and stable"
I don't know. No doubt there will be a goodly number of examples. Nevertheless, I see no good reason (i.e. neither canon statements nor plausible conjecture) to believe that in the OTU, the overall picture will not be substantially correct and stable.
Hans
This is all well and good, but what does this have to do with the following statement?
Again, this is all well and good, but has nothing to do with the post you were responding to.
Keep in mind that the Solomani Hypothesis wasn't publishing until 114 in the Third Imperium and prior to this date ( and the acceptance of this theory ), the racial origins of all human races except the Solomani, had more in common with intelligent design and ancient astronauts than with the evolution of hominids. As a result, non-solomani historians may put more credence in the works of Erich Von Daniken, Zecharia Sitchin, or Robert Temple, whose works are considered by the Solomani intelligentsia as pseudoscience.
It was fairly obvious, I thought, that I was talking about how far-future historians might interpret the data given the history of their race's origins ( brought to the world by ancient astronauts )..
Psychohistory is a model and forecasting tool only. The 'experiment' "was conducted as a part of the Psionics Suppressions.". It was obviously used to forecast the outcomes of different scenarios involving psychological manipulations*. PsyOps involved the public revelation of scandals ( possibly fabricated ), propaganda, and "various institute charters were cancelled, leading figures jailed or otherwise repressed, and restrictive laws passed limiting or prohibiting the practice of psionics".
"....the suppressions succeeded far better than even the Imperium had envisioned..."
The psychohistory experiment was a failure in that it did not provide an accurate prediction for the outcome for the suppressions causing the suppressions to go further than intended.
Actually, I was not referring to the idea of secret referee-only information's existence, but rather I was referring to what the secret ref-only library entry mentioned.
1. public library data specifically excludes information concerning the use of psychohistory in a large scale experiment during the Psi-suppressions. It also specifically lies about the reason large scale experiments are no longer conducted.
2. Public Library data specifically excludes information about "Both Imperial-chartered Psionics Institutes are under military control, and are engaged in psionics research. Their existence is of the utmost secrecy. "
Its nothing sinister, but it does provide evidence that the Imperium has both the will and the means to suppress information on a broad scale. Hence my assertion that
Unfirtunately, you are not quite correct here.
Even though it was declared a hoax in 1921, it is still widely used as a propaganda tool against Jews and Israel. There even exist people who, knowing it is a hoax, still believe it to be accurate in its depiction of steps toward the formation of a "New World Order". Its a sad statement imho.
But it is interesting to consider how far future historians might view it in light of the history/political_views of the Terran Confederation and Solomani Confederation.
please show where you came up with those numbers; cite your sources. I think you made them up in this case.
Also show where I ever said or deliberately intimated "everybody will". ..you can't
"many people" or "some people" is not the same as "everybody"
If you had shown the entire quote that your comment is in response to, that would have been obvious.
please don't put words in my mouth like that.
"....but the suppressions succeeded far better than even the Imperium had envisioned...."Ishmael said:
apparently excerpted from The Imperial Encyclopedia according to http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Psionics_Suppressions/secret
your statement seems to be incorrect
I don't feel like commenting on the rest of your statements; I'm tired
*http://www.psychologicalharassment.com/psychological_manipulation.htm
I thought it did. It may not have anything to do with what you meant to convey. I can't help that.
Not so. The controversy was over which world was the original homeworld and how the other human races had wound up on the other worlds.
Well, in that case I will paraphrase a comment from my previous post: You are far too ready to jump from "might" to "unquestionably did".
That's another way of stating what I said, yes.
No, it's proof that it has been able to keep at least one secret. That's not the same thing as suppressing and falsifying a long-held widespread knowledge of events 3000 years earler.
I said reputable encyclopedias. You know, with the absence of censorship and the peer review and the fact checking?
Once again I will point out that future historians are unlikely to be any stupider than the present-day crop.
Of course I made them up. They express my estimate of the balance of historians who will be passionate enough about 3000 year old events to be totally biased vis-a-vis historians who will be dispassionate enough about 3000 year old events to be reasonably objective.
It's implicit in your claim that it's conceivable that history could be falsified to the extent that you're suggesting is inevitable. If a particular result can only come about in one way, then espousing that result implies espousing that way.
Oh, I get it. By cherry-picking one line out of context, you're trying to demonstrate how a biased scholar can arrive at a conclusion diametrically opposite to that of the text he's referencing. Very clever. But not quite clever enough. You see, if the entire passage is available too, other scholars can easily spot the mistake and draw their own conclusions.
Here's the entire text:
"The general information in the library data entry is not entirely correct. The reason large-scale psychohistory experiments are no longer conducted is due to the unpredictable results achieved by the only sizable experiment to date, which was conducted as a part of the Psionics Suppressions. The unforeseen results of this experiment were so far-reaching that Imperial scientists concluded that their knowledge of the principles involved was woefully inadequate and that further study was required. Imperial research into psychohistory is undertaken at a small number of research stations and is carried out under the strictest of controls."
The 'that' in your original statement referred to a portion of the previous sentence ("ts not about deleting or changing available information.....its about social engineering to change the population's beliefs concerning which information is true and which is false." So the actual statement was:
The Psionic Suppressions, and the hiding of the true nature of those suppressions, are proof the the Imperium is quite capable of social engineering to change the population's beliefs concerning which information is true and which is false.
However, the text in toto makes it quite clear that a) the attempt at social engineering was a failure in the scientific sense[*] and b) was the only large-scale attempt at psychohistory ever performed in the Imperium.
The Imperium didn't change anybody's mind about a widely held belief. It lied about something in the first place.
[*] If you attempt to wipe out most of the vermin infesting a field and you not only wipe all of them out but also destroy the crops, you may say that your attempt succeeded beyond your wildest dreams -- you didn't just get most of the vermin, you got all of them -- but it's not a success if you look at the whole picture.
Hans
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Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Firstly, let me state that my point here (like my previous ones, though I wasn't explicit before) is not necessarily about the future described in the OTU, but about the prospects for all humanity's possible futures. Even the OTU future may lie at the end of a twisted and broken path.
Your statements quoted here seem to assume that humanity's future will inevitably follow the path of free speech and free thought to a glorious intellectual future when the whole of humanity's history will be an open book for all to read.
I'd like to believe in that future, too, but a quick examination of human history, or even a quick examination of current social geography, paints a different and darker picture.
How many nations, even today, have societies whose education is free of dogma? Is Western Freedom (a questionable concept in itself) the one true path, or will the thought police win out in the end?
As I intimated in my original post, I worry about the percentage of possible futures that lead to free thought, especially as we learn more about psychology and how to manipulate minds. Unfortunately, historians don't need to be stupid to be religiously or politically fundamentalist, they just need to be thoroughly indoctrinated, preferably, though not essentially, from birth.
Ishmael can answer for himself (if he so chooses), but I suspect that he, like me and several others, is not suggesting that history loss/tampering is inevitable, just that it's quite likely - and more likely as the intervening time increases. It's a natural law called entropy.
As I see it, there's only one person claiming that things are impossible or inevitable here, only one person espousing a result that can only come about in one way, and that's your narrow and uninterruptable golden path to an 'inevitably enlightened' future with its 'impossible to eradicate' history.
Time will tell.
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