Does the Term "Aslan Border Wars" Make Sense?

[elbmc1969]

And do the wars themselves make sense?

The Border Wars run from -1118 to 380, most of which is covered by the Long Night. During most of this period, there's no border at all. The Terran Mercantile Community extended its protection over a wide sphere, but in -1110 it retrenched into the Old Earth Union and stopped patrolling outside of local space. Even during the TMC period, "Farther from Terra, former Earth colonies which were satisfied with their own independence proved to be poor markets for Terran goods. Some trading expeditions were attempted, but they met with little success. Over the course of a few hundred years, Terra came to emphasize its own local markets and to stay within a sphere perhaps ten parsecs across." (AM06 Solomani)

Even when the growing 3rd Imperium made contact with the Easter Concord, the Easter Concord was 7+ subsectors from the Aslan Hierate. The Imperium doesn't even contact the Easter Concord until 305. In 365 the Starlane is strengthened. Now, Solomani & Aslan states that, by 374, the Old Earth Union was not only sending trading missions to the edge of Hierate space, but sending warships to the area as well. I don't see any other sources indicating that the OEU had expanded tremendously, but it seems have at least increased its sphere of influence, if not its borders, because war broke out with the Aslan in 374. In 380 the Imperium forces the Peace of Ftahair. Confusingly, S&A states, "But upon learning that the Old Earth Union was actually a vassal of the Third Imperium ..." with no explanation of when or how that might have happened.

In 426 the Easter Concord is absorbed by the Imperium, and in 588 Terra joins (as part of the OEU?).

Questions:

What the heck border was being fought over? AFAICT, even the war in 380 that established the Imperium's dominance was fought outside of the borders of the Imperium.

Who were the signatories to the Peace of Dark Nebula, exactly?

When did the OEU become a vassal of the Imperium, if they actually did? Or is that the Aslan interpretation of the OEU asking the Imperium for military and diplomatic aid?

How much had the OEU expanded by 374? A government of seventeen worlds would have quite a problem fighting a war a sector and a half away (roughly 50 parsecs)

And finally, why the heck didn't the Aslan expand further towards Terra? They end up barely expanding to trailing from their homeworld. I just can't imagine that the ihatei didn't win just by taking advantage of the immense technological advantage afforded them by the Long Night, and by simply coming in wave after wave until human resistance is worn down. Even if the Ihatei have no strategic coordination, the fragmented human are definitely no better off.

 

[mike wightman]

They were not fighting over a border, they were fighting to establish a border.

 

[Dagrill]

As I see it Ihatei would be expanding to fill the space (territory) on existing worlds before moving on to another and looking for easy pickings rather than a straight up fight.

Also the humans had expanded SPINward of the Aslan homeworld, but were weaker in that direction making it the easier target.

I personally don't see the Ihatei as that much of a threat and I believe the humans had enough strength to fight a single clan on even terms.

Kind Regards

David

 

[GypsyComet]

And finally, why the heck didn't the Aslan expand further towards Terra? They end up barely expanding to trailing from their homeworld. I just can't imagine that the ihatei didn't win just by taking advantage of the immense technological advantage afforded them by the Long Night, and by simply coming in wave after wave until human resistance is worn down. Even if the Ihatei have no strategic coordination, the fragmented human are definitely no better off.

There are a couple reasons.

The first is that the Heirate was much smaller at the time, so there was a readily available frontier to spinward with land sitting around for the taking. No previous inhabitants, no resistance. You just have to claim it before some other Clan does.

That is another reason. If the other Clans are simply flying off to spinward, why are you wasting effort and resources in repeated attempts to take land away from monkeys? Monkeys with friends, no less. And guns. The more efficient use of ihatei resources would be the longer trip to spinward.

There would still be some Clans who want to take these already-settled and resource developed worlds away from their current owners, and there are also former RoM and ZS worlds that have been abandoned in an age of little to no sustained trade. The interpenetration of early Heirate space and fallow RoM space would have been deep, but only violent when two Clans competed over some resource or when someone, Human OR Aslan, got stupid and started shooting at the other. Given the prideful nature of both, there was probably a battle going on somewhere at all times.

We already know the Aslan are violently mono-cultural by choice, while still seeing individuals and isolated groups drift. Exposure to Humaniti would have caused such drift in the trailing colonies. This would have several effects. The eventual re-absorption by the Imperium would vary from peaceful to eviction to subsector-sized wars as a result of this drift, but in the shorter term the senior Clans might want to actually minimize the mingling of their young ihatei with these human ideas, resulting in another reason to send the kids spinward.

 

[elbmc1969]

Also the humans had expanded SPINward of the Aslan homeworld, but were weaker in that direction making it the easier target.

According to the Traveller Map, Terra is to Trailing from Kusyu. Terrans were expanding in the spinward direction; Aslan were expanding to trailing. The Terrans were to trailing of the Aslan; the Aslan were to spinward of the Terrans.

Or are you saying that humans had expanded outside of the 1st/2nd Imperium borders through Reavers Deep, possibly parts of Dark Nebula, and perhaps even into what's now Ealiyasiyw? That puts them primarily coreward of Kusyu, but slightly spinward at their maximum extent.

 

[Garnfellow]

Classic Traveller Alien Module 6: Solomani has a map of the Terran Confederation and extra-Confederation Terran colonies, circa -2204. At this point the Terrans had colonies in Reavers Deep, Dark Nebula, Ustral Quadrant, and even Iwahfuah. The Aslan don't develop the Jump drive until -1999, over 200 years later, and at that point they are really only TL7. The Mongoose Aslan book says they don't develop j-2 until -1699.

There hasn't been much published about Aslan space during this time, but we could speculate a little. Without j-2 the Aslan are largely confined to the small, unpromising main around Kuzu. In the meantime the Terran colonists have enough time to build up population and infrastructure. And although Long Night has begun by the time the Aslan start moving out of the Kuzu main, that probably doesn't much affect the Terran settled worlds around Dark Nebula sector: these worlds had been intentionally settled by humans who rejected the Confederation, and by extension the Second Imperium. So the mess on Hub doesn't affect these humans at all.

It appears that the Aslan jump drive tech is generally leading a few TLs ahead of the rest of their tech, so that -1700 Aslan might only have ships with TL 8 or 9 weapons and armament. So as they start encountering Terrans, they are badly outgunned. Terran colonies are on all sides, but Spinward offers the easiest path. So that's where they went.

What I don't understand is why they didn't just keep going Spinward and Rimward forever? Why bother with crossing the Great Rift? And why push into the heart of human space? The Imperial Encyclopedia has a map of the Aslan Border Wars, and it shows lots of action in Daibei, but neighboring Magyar escapes unscathed?

My speculation is that the great clans lock up claims on the Spinward territories, splinter Aslan factions lock up the Rimward territories, leaving ambitious smaller clans unable to expand anywhere except Coreward across the Rift . . . Or Trailing toward human space. And by the time this happens, Aslan tech in this region has equalled or maybe even passed Terran tech, meaning Reavers Deep and Daibei are ripe for plundering.

 

[rancke]

The Aslan don't develop the Jump drive until -1999, over 200 years later, and at that point they are really only TL7. The Mongoose Aslan book says they don't develop j-2 until -1699.

So until then they're restricted to J1 drives and copies of the original J3 drive?

I wonder if scaling up the drive will allow it to provide J3 for bigger ships? In any case, a J3 drive can be installed in smaller ships to provide J1 and J2. Also, what was the size of that Scout vessel? A long-distance scout could easily be in the upper hundreds of dT.

The third clan to get jump drive did it by buying ships from humans. From that point on the Aslan would also have access to J3 at second hand, as it were.

Aside: Come to think about it, the Aslan taking 300 years to buy a jump technology textbook from some human or other seems an unbelievable long time. It's not like J2 and J3 is a military secret by -1999.


Hans

 

[Garnfellow]

So until then they're restricted to J1 drives and copies of the original J3 drive?

Was the Pathfinder's drive established anywhere as J-3? Even so, I'm not sure that the Aslan copies would have had full J-3 capability: that tech is so far ahead of their TL, even J-1 was a significant leap.

-1699 might simply mark the point where J-2 became widely and commercially viable for the Aslan to produce themselves; in the 300 years prior they could have and almost certainly did buy Terran J-2 or even J-3 ships. But they would have been rare and expensive.

The difference between a TL7 and TL 11 culture is pretty staggering. Reverse-engineering discrete pieces of equipment is one thing, but successfully assimilating all of the theory behind the tech and building out TL 11 infrastructure? I could see that taking three centuries, particularly if two clans are actively trying to keep this knowledge secret from the rest of the Aslan.

 

[rancke]

Was the Pathfinder's drive established anywhere as J-3?

I don't know, but IIRC it was a long-distance scout. What else would it have been?

Even so, I'm not sure that the Aslan copies would have had full J-3 capability: that tech is so far ahead of their TL, even J-1 was a significant leap.

Fair point. A TL12 device would need one or more TL11 (or TL12) products to function. So copies are out at first.

-1699 might simply mark the point where J-2 became widely and commercially viable for the Aslan to produce themselves...

The time they achieved TL11, you mean? Good point.

...in the 300 years prior they could have and almost certainly did buy Terran J-2 or even J-3 ships. But they would have been rare and expensive.

Some clans would command the resources of major national governments. They'd be able to afford a number of expensive ships.

The difference between a TL7 and TL 11 culture is pretty staggering.

The Aslans were TL8 at the time, weren't they?

Reverse-engineering discrete pieces of equipment is one thing, but successfully assimilating all of the theory behind the tech and building out TL 11 infrastructure? I could see that taking three centuries, particularly if two clans are actively trying to keep this knowledge secret from the rest of the Aslan.

But the two clans were forced to make the knowledge public at one point. Also, the ability to buy textbooks and technical manuals from humans would be able to give a tremendous boost to the development on anyone motivated. And clans that saw their neighbors edge ahead of themselves would be very much motivated to keep up.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I've just dug out my timeline of Aslan history, and as it turns out, the Yerlyaruiwo and Khaukheairl are said to dominate interstellar exploration until -1667.

Calendar Dates	Event
Fteirle	3rdImp
   96    -1999  Fteirle interstellar exploration and settlement begins,
                dominated by Yerlyaruiwo and Khaukheairl clans until 474
                (-1667).
  117	 -1980	First official contact between Humans and Fteirle.
  415	 -1719	Tralyeaeawi clan buys starships from humans.
  474    -1667  Yerlyaruiwo and Khaukheairl clan forces are decimated in the
                long-delayted space duel. In the aftermath, the two clans are
                forced to release the secret of the jump drive to all clans.

The Tralyeaeawi do buy starships from humans before then, but still not until -1719. That's 261 years it takes for someone to come up with this blindingly obvious idea. Go figure.

On the other hand, the Yerlayruiwo and Khaukheairl do not seem to have used their monopoly on starship travel to expand massively. Apparently major expansion didn't start until everybody got jump drive.

  474    -1667  Fteirle begin to expand rimward and spinward of Kusyu until
                about 1100 (-1119ti).  The Reaver states of Magyar and Dark
                Nebula impede expansion to coreward and trailing.

Hans

 

[Garnfellow]

To get back to the OP's questions:

What the heck border was being fought over? AFAICT, even the war in 380 that established the Imperium's dominance was fought outside of the borders of the Imperium.

Keep in mind that there is very little information about the human interstellar states trailing and coreward of Dark Nebula sector during the Long Night.

From DGP's Solomani and Aslan, we know there were some polities in Magyar such as the Wuan Technology Association, the New Slavic Soldality, and the Reformed Dootchen Estates -- though these may have been different in composition or nature than presented in S&A.

We also know that during Long Night the Aslan traded and raided as far trailing as the Solomani Rim, though such excursions were probably fairly rare.

We also know there was Reaver activity in Magyar and Reavers Deep during at least the early stages of Long Night, until the Aslan influence drove them off.

So put it all together and you have humans trailing and coreward of the Hierate who are, at the start of the Long Night, organized and technologically advanced. Aslan aggression in this direction was probably brutally repulsed, so they turned their colonization efforts spinward and rimward.

Centuries pass. The Aslan grow in strength and numbers, while the humans begin to splinter and decay. Reaver predation decimates entire worlds, and only a few human interstellar states remain.

Meanwhile the strongest Aslan clans establish virtual monopolies on the frontiers to spinward and rimward, forcing lesser clans to press into human space trailing and coreward. Small, outsider clans on the margins of Aslan society with limited resources. This is an informal, unorganized movement. Slow, gradual, system by system. Sometimes peaceful, and sometimes not.

Centuries pass. Worlds trade back and forth between different human factions, different Aslan clans. There is no one border, just a wide zone of shifting cultural and political interests. I think the GURPS Alien Races book had a better term for it -- can't think of it right now.

Complex tech and cultural influences pass back and forth between the humans and Aslan. Imagine something like Moorish Spain.

Yet more centuries pass. The Aslan interface moves further and further trailing. Meanwhile, the Third Imperium begins sending scouts into Daibei, Magyar, Reavers Deep, and beyond.

Human worlds reluctant to be assimilated by the Aslan beg for the Imperium to intervene. The Imperium was more than happy to oblige.

Meanwhile, many Aslan grow worried about the corrosive effect human cultures have had on Aslan, setting up the Aslan Cultural Purge.

 

[elbmc1969]

Centuries pass. The Aslan grow in strength and numbers, while the humans begin to splinter and decay. Reaver predation decimates entire worlds, and only a few human interstellar states remain.

And probably technological regression in the human worlds, generally. See TNE, esp. Hard Times for the process.

 

[elbmc1969]

This question opens a huge can of worms, but the Aslan frontier during the Long Night is certainly rich with possibilities as a setting.

 

[rancke]

And probably technological regression in the human worlds, generally. See TNE, esp. Hard Times for the process.

Probably not. The Hard Times was a result of pretty catastrophic events. And even with the Virus thrown into it, which is why every world lost star travel, it only took 70 years to recover starship technology. The Long Night began with a whimper, not a bang, and some worlds (such as the core worlds in the Reaver states) are known to have kept star travel throughout the period. It's actually stranger that Sylea and Vland dipped to TL9 at all.

Also, motivation strikes again. Any neighbor of the Aslans would be highly motivated to keep up its military capabilities.


Hans

 

[aramis]

I don't know, but IIRC it was a long-distance scout. What else would it have been?

3J1, 2J2...

 

[Garnfellow]

Yeah, while I am sure some human worlds in the vicinity regressed technologically during the Long Night due to Reaver or Aslan or internal issues, many of these colonies were settled by human dissidents who were explicitly rejecting the Terran Confederation and the Rule of Man: these colonies would have been built for resilience and independence. An interstellar banking crisis four or five sectors away probably wouldn't have had much effect.

I think the Long Night hit Sylea and Vland so hard because those world economies were so complex and interdependent on interstellar trade. It was like a huge tower of cards.

 

[Garnfellow]

This question opens a huge can of worms, but the Aslan frontier during the Long Night is certainly rich with possibilities as a setting.

Totally agree. In some ways it offers many more opportunities than the 3I.

I'd love to see someone do an "Interstellar Wars" treatment of this setting.

 

[elbmc1969]

The Imperial Encyclopedia has a map of the Aslan Border Wars, and it shows lots of action in Daibei, but neighboring Magyar escapes unscathed?

At first, I thought that map didn't make any sense at all because it shows the fighting behind the Reaver States, so it looks as though it's all in the wrong place. However, the ma only shows the wars of the Third Imperium, not all conflicts! Remember, the Imperium got drawn into conflict with the Aslan at the request of the Easter Concord. The Concord was buffered to rimward by the Old Earth Union (and whoever else), so the area of contact was, almost certainly, to spinward of the Easter Concord. It's not that Magyar was spared conflict with the Aslan, it's just that the Third Imperium's reach didn't extend that far rimward. By the time they absorbed the whole Solomani Sphere, the Peace of Fta ... (unpronounceable) was in place and the Imperium didn't need to do any further fighting.

Of course, this implies that the Aslan had overrun Reaver's Deep, although you could make some sort of argument that the Aslan were simply launching very long-range raids into the sphere of influence of the Easter Concord. I'm not convinced that such raids could be profitable, although they might simply attract ihatei with "death or glory" and the chance of finding a planet behind the lines to grab.

 

[rancke]

At first, I thought that map didn't make any sense at all because it shows the fighting behind the Reaver States, so it looks as though it's all in the wrong place. However, the map only shows the wars of the Third Imperium, not all conflicts!

Excellent insight.

Remember, the Imperium got drawn into conflict with the Aslan at the request of the Easter Concord.

Where did you read that? The¨version I know of says that the Old Earth Union became a client state of the Imperium at some time prior to the war. When the OEU became involved in renewed war with the Aslan, the Imperium tried to mediate, only to be challenged to answer for the actions of what the Aslan perceived as their vassal, the OEU.

Of course, this implies that the Aslan had overrun Reaver's Deep, although you could make some sort of argument that the Aslan were simply launching very long-range raids into the sphere of influence of the Easter Concord. I'm not convinced that such raids could be profitable, although they might simply attract ihatei with "death or glory" and the chance of finding a planet behind the lines to grab.

It just means that one or more of the four involved clans had some sort of presence in Reaver's Deep. The "war" between the Imperium and the Aslan was a 'formal duel-war', whatever that may be. My guess is that it involves limited and balanced forces.


Hans

 

[aramis]

MGT Solomani Rim mentions the dates of the Easter Concord's appeal to join (IY 305). and when they actually dissolved and were admitted (IY 426) on page 14.
I cannot find mention of the aslan border wars there.

It notes, however, forming near the end of the Reaver wars, IY -1115.

Looking in other sources, tho', the Aslan Border Wars would have to have affected the Easter Concord - because they were on the border in question at the time.