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Finally got my Rulebook and tried to read it...

But yes the complexity of T5 is not going to win any new fans.

The desired complexity level is a subjective thing. Even in CT there were two levels of character generation: 'basic' (in books 1-3), and 'advanced' (in books 4+). I know there are a lot of fans of 'basic', which is fine, but for me personally when I tried 'basic' it always left me cold. So I've stuck with 'advanced'. That's a personal choice.

Fast forward to today and MgT was supposed to be the entry level introduction to Traveller and T5 was supposed to be 'advanced'. In fact, as I understand it, the original idea was that MgT was going to be a subset of T5 but when T5 took longer to develop, Mongoose went ahead with their own variant.

The problem, as has been said many times before, is the presentation of T5 (the organisation and lack of clear explanations and examples). This gives the appearance of a much more complex system than it actually is. Once you get into it, sections like character generation are on a par with 'advanced' CT.

The present book has been a massive own goal

In some people's eyes, sure. In others, no.

The fact he hasnt once communicated anything on this forum that I have ever seen is a good enough indication to me that T5 is dead in the water,

He has communicated, just not directly. Marc doesn't do online communication or social networking or any of that stuff. It's his way. And you're reading too much into it to suggest otherwise.
 
Fast forward to today and MgT was supposed to be the entry level introduction to Traveller and T5 was supposed to be 'advanced'. In fact, as I understand it, the original idea was that MgT was going to be a subset of T5 but when T5 took longer to develop, Mongoose went ahead with their own variant.

That may have been the pitch, but the reality is that everything shows that MGT Core is derived almost exclusively from CT 1E (not even the revised 1981 CT 2E). A lot of the silliness in their rules is breaking from things already fixed in CT 2E.
 
MgT was supposed to be the entry level introduction to Traveller and T5 was supposed to be 'advanced'. In fact, as I understand it, the original idea was that MgT was going to be a subset of T5 but when T5 took longer to develop, Mongoose went ahead with their own variant

Well that certainly isnt the case anymore because it sounds like T5 is nothing like MgT. I really dont understand what Marc is trying to do with T5 at all.
 
Well that certainly isnt the case anymore because it sounds like T5 is nothing like MgT. I really dont understand what Marc is trying to do with T5 at all.
That was an urban myth. The beta for Mongoose Traveller shows no signs that it had anything to do with T5. T5 was a figment of someone's imagination in 2007. The imaginary copy of T5 back then was awesome though. See www.traveller5.com
 
While there is still much of T5 I don’t understand yet, I see this as a *presentational* issue. What I do understand of T5 I like a lot. A rewrite for understandability would be welcome but I don’t want someone to go off and write T6 (or another updated version of CT). There is no need. Just rewrite T5 to be clearer.

I’m looking forward to the T5 players’ manual, and Greg Lee’s adventure.

Overall, I agree with this. I'm wading through T5 now and see a lot of things that I really like and that make sense. Then I run into something that makes me wonder what was going through the designers' minds when they included it. T5 has the potential to be truly outstanding, but I can't see it happening in its current form. When I found the errata I thought it might be a page or so...but 10 pages? And the game has been out how long? In this day and age, this is simply unacceptable. And then to not have a couple basic ships fully statted, weapons, gear, etc., simply dogpiled onto the issue.

If this is a "core book", then it should have everything ready so that after reading though I can sit down and generate characters and actually *play* the game without having to design everything that's going to be used. I enjoy gearheading as much as the next person, but this is a bridge too far, IMO.

I'm going to continue through the book and finish it, but I really wish that there was a way that we could simply download the revised (with the errata applied) copy of the rules each time it was updated.
 
Players don't need a detailed understanding of the rules. They certainly don't need to know any of the Makers or system generation. As Referee you can guide them through character generation. Then, during play, they just need to know what their options are and have a rough idea of the odds. Later, over time, they can take on more 'responsibility' for the game mechanics side of things.

There was a time when I'd completely agree with you, but not with a complex set of rules. I'm tired of being the only person who knows the rules and has to do everything for the players that they should be doing on their own. The players have to accept some of the responsibility when a new game or edition of an existing game is played. As a GM, it would be my responsibility to know the rules, prepare an enjoyable and challenging scenario or campaign, and to know the world. It's their responsibility to know the rules they need to create a character, participate in combat, and any additional functions their characters might be involved with.

Back in the 80s when I was gaming most nights, everyone at the table had a copy of the rules and knew them. If a new player showed up, the existing players could mentor them as well as I could. There were also a lot less arguments over rules because we all knew them, how they worked, and how they were applied.
 
There was a time when I'd completely agree with you, but not with a complex set of rules. I'm tired of being the only person who knows the rules and has to do everything for the players that they should be doing on their own. The players have to accept some of the responsibility when a new game or edition of an existing game is played. As a GM, it would be my responsibility to know the rules, prepare an enjoyable and challenging scenario or campaign, and to know the world. It's their responsibility to know the rules they need to create a character, participate in combat, and any additional functions their characters might be involved with.

Back in the 80s when I was gaming most nights, everyone at the table had a copy of the rules and knew them. If a new player showed up, the existing players could mentor them as well as I could. There were also a lot less arguments over rules because we all knew them, how they worked, and how they were applied.

The Morse Code test is still required for T5. :)
 
Morse Code Test?

Obviously you're not a US Amateur Radio Operator. Please see "hamsexy.com"

Long Version Of Story: The hobby lost many, many participants when first computers, then cell phones arrived. Even after the most obvious of hints, that the US military began dropping Morse usage (there are still some vestiges), the old ham grognards resisted dropping the Morse Code test requirements for access to more than just local, line-of-sight VHF/UHF work. They wanted to keep the sandbox of HF (30 MHz and below for worldwide coverage) to themselves. It was only after a sufficient number of them went SK (silent key/dead), that the Morse testing requirements were dropped. By that time, it was far too late to get new blood, in sufficient numbers, to keep amateur radio a viable hobby. In fan vernacular, they broke the fanbase. The old joke went "do you need to take a Morse Code test to use a computer?"

Nothing like this has ever happened in the industry of RPG's, of course. :)
 
I didn't read the whole thread (just the first and last pages). But, I have to disagree with the overall tone of the thread.

Let me start by picking on the game: Organization is very "engineer". It's there, and probably more organized than most realize, but it's not how typical gamers read things.

The organization is three-part: "What is it?", checklist, and tables.

First, we are told the general makeup of the current subject. For character generation, we're told we roll dice and gather character information. 5-steps, whatever.

Then there's a checklist.

Then there's another checklist and a page full of tables (for chargen, anyway).

Personally I would have liked to see the professions all together and synchronized.

Is it "wrong"? No, I don't think so. But some are right that it may put off some audiences. It's very cerebral, and modern gamers don't like to have to think.

Now, with that out of the way, I LOVE it! It's Classic Traveller (CT) with all the bugs fixed. (OK, so it added new ones. :p) I mean, come on, who didn't think it was a little unfair that navy guys could go to college, but army guys couldn't? Or how about the fact that half the skills were created after the basic professions, so there was no way they could use those skills in any meaningful way (i.e. +2 or more)?

The organization takes getting used to, but the content is darned good.

IMO
 
There was no such joke.

The HAM ops I know have told it at BBS GT's since the early 90's. But there's another line. "... unless you're going to do a HAM radio modem."

Amateur radio in the US is making a slow recovery, thanks to groups like the Boy Scouts and CAP, both of whom offer awards based upon HAM quals. Other countries still have active equivalents. I know of several current cadets doing work for their comm badge.
 
When I look at T5, what I see if a lot of work. And, it's not the type of "fun" work that Traveller is known for.

What's "fun" work? Using CT to create worlds, systems, subsectors and sectors. Creating vehicles, using Striker, Robots, using Book 8, and NPCs. Designing ships with Book 2 or Book 5. CT is, in a sense, a lot like T5, in that CT gives you tools to create your own Traveller universe.

T5 is an attempt to do the same thing--a cluster of systems for the GM to use to create his Traveller universe.

The difference between the two is that CT has "useable" rules. T5 has a lot of broken, or ugly, or illogical rules. So, when I say that when I see T5, I see a lot of "un-fun" work, what I'm saying that I see myself having to fix a lot of T5.

Some T5 rules are not necessarily broken, but just ugly or illogical. For example, the combat system is extremely broad and abstract. Each character is allowed one attack per round.

Now, in and of itself, that's fine. I can accept an abstract combat round. During that time, the one roll of the dice represents all sorts of shots, pulls of the trigger--single shot, full auto--and so on.

But, then the rules go an illogical route and apply modifiers based on the type of attack: Aimed Fire, AutoFire, and SnapFire are all treated with modifiers and restrictions to the attack throw.

So, now, the GM and players have a question. Just how abstract is the attack throw? One attack per round is sufficient if the throw represents all possible attacks during the round. And, the rounds are considered to average about a minute of combat time (which some being just a few seconds long, and others being longer than a full minute).

In a round that long, why can't characters fire at more than one target? Surely, if the rules address firing a weapon as either SnapFire or AutoFire, then there should be a way to attack two, three, or more enemies.

What if a character uses more than one type of attack in the same round? Certainly, if the game uses modifiers for SnapFire or AutoFire, then a character should be able switch fire modes within a minute or so. And, just how is ammunition tracked? How many rounds will a character have if he's got three magazines of ammunition?

And, the Range Band abstract combat movement system is fine, even desireable, in some situations, but not all. Sometimes, you want to play things out tactically on a piece of graph paper.

CT allowed a Ref to switch back and forth. Range Band combat was introduced, and each Speed Rating was given a set distance per turn so that tactical combat could be mounted. Speed Ratings are given distance in T5, too, it's just buried in a different chapter other than the Combat section--and the game doesn't make it clear that the rules allow for either tactical or Range Band based abstract movement.

I see too many problems like this if I use T5 for my system of choice when I play Traveller. It's maybe not "broken" in every part (and there are certainly some good ideas in the game), but there is enough of it that I would want to change in order for it to be palatable for my group.

Not when there are other, better choices available.

Unless I see something different for T5, I'm done with the game. It was a curiosity that I wanted desperately to like. There's just too much "wrong" with it, in my opinion.
 
Let me start by picking on the game: Organization is very "engineer". It's there, and probably more organized than most realize, but it's not how typical gamers read things.

Yes. Gamers only read game rules. What planet are you from?

Is it "wrong"? No, I don't think so. But some are right that it may put off some audiences. It's very cerebral, and modern gamers don't like to have to think.

But you're a gamer. Or maybe you're not, which explains things. Regardless, I have to block you now. Added to the T5 lovers list.
 
But you're a gamer. Or maybe you're not, which explains things. Regardless, I have to block you now. Added to the T5 lovers list.

I'm more of an old-school gamer. Read the rules until the manual falls apart. Argue for hours about a 3-minute step-by-step in the rules. Play slowly and deliberately.

Of course, at my age, I have to read the rules many times just to remember them. Like they say, memory is the second thing to go. I just wish I could remember what the first was.
 
Long Version Of Story: The hobby lost many, many participants when first computers, then cell phones arrived. Even after the most obvious of hints, that the US military began dropping Morse usage (there are still some vestiges), the old ham grognards resisted dropping the Morse Code test requirements for access to more than just local, line-of-sight VHF/UHF work. They wanted to keep the sandbox of HF (30 MHz and below for worldwide coverage) to themselves. It was only after a sufficient number of them went SK (silent key/dead), that the Morse testing requirements were dropped. By that time, it was far too late to get new blood, in sufficient numbers, to keep amateur radio a viable hobby. In fan vernacular, they broke the fanbase. The old joke went "do you need to take a Morse Code test to use a computer?"

Nothing like this has ever happened in the industry of RPG's, of course. :)

Yeah, I heard something of that. The requirement was to belt out 11 words per minute with Morse code to pass your ham radio operator test. At a typing standard of an average of 5 letters per word, that's 7.3 bits per second, lol. I want to be polite about it and say that was a requirement for another age.
 
Gaming Zen

It is certainly true that a publisher does us no favours with a hard-to-digest set of rules. Ideally the rules should be known to the GM and all players very well. It speeds things up so that you will not be slowed down if you switch to some new aspect of the rules. If you don't emphasize combat, fine, but for those players who want it, it should not be a too-abstract thing. One-minute rounds are fine in fantasy if you have one sword and with all the fencing might not get to land a blow, but it's a different story if you have a ObVlMg-11 on AutoFire mode. If starships are your thing, the starship rules about operation, maintenance and combat should flow.

But, the GMs do what they must, and they can gloss over any complexities for the sake of keeping the show moving. The usual guide is not to waste too much player time on shopping, travelling, or healing, as there is not much dramatic interest in such things for most people (I said MOST! There's always going to be some man or woman with a female character who wants to look for the most darling set of red pumps without leaving the starport because it's Law Level F outside. And when she finds those red pumps, she will be pleased as punch when installing them in the fuel manifolds and chucking out the old p.o.s. pumps).

But when the rules must be applied, they should not be clunky.

I am "Zen" with a few game rules systems, and when I run those, you will believe. It will take some effort to be "Zen" with T5 because the sound of flipping pages (or more likely clacking arrow-keys if I consult something on the screen while in teleconference with the players) makes people believe less...There is some rules repetition as well in the planet-generation rules, so the error of "Hydrographic = Flux + Size" (it should be "Flux + Atm") was found in 5 places...I would say simply that Zen and meditation conditions for the game have not started out favourably.
 
I keep meaning to jump in here, and then there's another post, and another post, etc...

Marc uses Indesign to put together his PDFs.

(and I apologize for not a lot of posting recently -- my wife had surgery last week, and so my Traveller time has been cut short)
 
The HAM ops I know have told it at BBS GT's since the early 90's. But there's another line. "... unless you're going to do a HAM radio modem."

Amateur radio in the US is making a slow recovery, thanks to groups like the Boy Scouts and CAP, both of whom offer awards based upon HAM quals. Other countries still have active equivalents. I know of several current cadets doing work for their comm badge.

Good for them. I generally work PSK-31 on 20 and 15 meters, if I can. 10 meters has picked up a little, especially in the more favorable parts of the cycle. The FCC needs to let Tech+'s work 10, 12, 15, and 17 meters without restrictions. My IC-7200, plus software (usually HRD), allows digital contacts to be made worldwide, with very efficient use of spectrum, on less than 20 W (normally 5-10 W). All on a G5RV, less than 30' up.

I did not need my EE to figure out my shack. I've only been playing with RF since 1965... :) You really should not need my EE or AE (or my silver wings) to be able to figure out how to play an RPG. I've only refereed Traveller since 1978, so what would I know about the game?
 
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