Finally got my Rulebook and tried to read it...

[esampson]

Well, doing a quick glance at the Kickstarter page there was 2085 backers. Roughly 350 of those seem to have been at a level where they did not receive a book. That leaves about 1700 copies of books that were sent out through Kickstarter.

That would mean that all the Ebay sales are maybe 1-2% of the people who received books through Kickstarter.

 

[HG_B]

At one point, over a dozen were on offer on ebay, and Marc still had not finished shipping the KS books...

Yes, we are talking about the same info I believe. All were personal (non shop) sales.

 

[Drakon]

My books will never be on EBay.

First off, my books will never go on EBay. Not in my lifetime. Traveller was something that, while I have not played much in ages, has always had a special place in my experiences and memories. I am proud and glad to be a part of this latest incarnation.

Second, for those who are abandoning T5, coming to the T5 forum and voicing the anger, and complaints beyond a certain point is not helpful. It might even harm any attempts at sales if you decide to recoup what you see as a loss. Informing your target market how little the product rates in your eyes, might convince the very folks you are trying to sell to, to not buy what you are selling.

Third, and this is my opinion, I am not blind to the many deficiencies and challenges presented, but I also recognize the monumental undertaking the book is. How much good material there is, and how overwhelming a project must have been for Marc.

The glass is always full, part air and part water. I am glad to have the glass. And if there are some omissions in a 600 page book that describes how to create an entire universe, well, I am not seeing it as sufficient cause to give up. It could use better organization, granted, but again, considering the magnitude of the task, it is not sufficient for me to give up on it.

Fourth: Baron Ector. It is better that the patents go to folks for whom it means something to, than not. How you got it, can make for an interesting backstory.

 

[HG_B]

Second, for those who are abandoning T5, coming to the T5 forum and voicing the anger, and complaints beyond a certain point is not helpful.

That all depends on whether or not the author decides to listen. Doesn't it?

 

[atpollard]

That all depends on whether or not the author decides to listen. Doesn't it?

Not really.
Hundreds of people complaining once say something about the product.
One person complaining hundreds of times, just says something about the person.

 

[cym0k]

Not much to add, but I have been going through the BBB in an attempt to draw out elements that I can use around the table: Character generation, tasks, combat, flying around shooting things and running away again. Standard stuff.

One thing I have noticed is the thread of thinking in some of the sections and how the thinking all ties in. Not that this observation is useful to others, but being able to see a 'method to the madness' (apologies!) gives me a handle on how to tackle using the material contained.

From what I can see, to hit the floor running, all you really need are 5 or 6 pages from character generation and you have a traveller. 5 or 6 pages from world design and you have somewhere to play travel (though I think it is actually more like 10 or 11 for world generation). Things like this.

The rest is valuable to those who feel it is appropriate. Now, not every Traveller game is the same at every table. You take what you want from the BBB. If it is not there, then you either have to improvise or port something across from previous editions.

T5 is a rich tome, would there be more complaints if the material was missing? "I can't build Sophonts! WTF etc"

 

[HG_B]

Not really.
Hundreds of people complaining once say a something about the product.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

[Shonner]

From what I can see, to hit the floor running, all you really need are 5 or 6 pages from character generation and you have a traveller. 5 or 6 pages from world design and you have somewhere to play travel (though I think it is actually more like 10 or 11 for world generation). Things like this.

Once you find the rules, how do you convince other players to use them?

 

[Hemdian]

Once you find the rules, how do you convince other players to use them?

Players don't need a detailed understanding of the rules. They certainly don't need to know any of the Makers or system generation. As Referee you can guide them through character generation. Then, during play, they just need to know what their options are and have a rough idea of the odds. Later, over time, they can take on more 'responsibility' for the game mechanics side of things.

 

[Shonner]

Players don't need a detailed understanding of the rules. They certainly don't need to know any of the Makers or system generation. As Referee you can guide them through character generation. Then, during play, they just need to know what their options are and have a rough idea of the odds. Later, over time, they can take on more 'responsibility' for the game mechanics side of things.

Before any of that happens though, you need players that are interested in the rules. There has to be something in the pages cym0k mentioned that makes players leave the rules they've been using. Players that need to be told what skill to use and what dice to roll probably don't care what game is played that night. Those are just referees playing by themselves and the players are just there to roll dice for them.

 

[Merxiless]

I bought the kicstarter CD-rom so I got some dice, and a trav aid card and my little fiefdom.

Well worth it, as I had failed to win the ebay bids year after year for Christmas for a small world in Traveller.

About a month or more ago, a guy put up his BBB, signed by Marc, addressed to him.

He said it sat on his shelf, he was uninterested. he included his coyns and his starburst dice.

Yesterday, I met William H. Keith at a social function, and I explained it was not addressed to me, but would he do me the honor of signing it. He had in fact, I think not seen a printed copy. He particularly paid attention to the vehicle Art.

He so did sign it, and I would never part with that book.

To me, it is the penultimate grognard's Traveller design sequence. Perhaps more a successor to FF&S, than CT or MgT.

I'm glad I got it, And paid what I consider decent money for both CD-Rom, and the BBB.

It to me was not for new players, it was written for guys like me, the completist, with OCD tendencies, that sits around rolling up planets, and characters, and loves the settting generation.

I figure you want to teach new players, use Classic TTB, or MgT. If you want to dive in and grind out the damn galaxy, T5.

Thanks to Marc.

You guys want to sell T5 on Ebay? I'll buy it and give WHK a copy.

 

[Midgardsormr]

Players that need to be told what skill to use and what dice to roll probably don't care what game is played that night. Those are just referees playing by themselves and the players are just there to roll dice for them.

Well, that pretty well describes my current group, but I don't feel like I'm playing solitaire.

I haven't yet asked my players to develop an understanding of the rules. Most of them are new to roleplaying, actually, so right now we're focusing on their understanding of their characters and capabilities in a qualitative sense. They're in full control of their characters' actions, objectives, personalities, etc, even if they still have to ask me how many dice to roll and which Characteristic is suitable for a given task.

I play with many inexperienced, new and casual roleplayers, and regardless of the system that's how my games usually work for at least a dozen sessions or so. Of course, anyone who wants more information about the mechanics can have it, but I don't require them to learn it.

For the sake of a more complete context, my current group consists of one relatively experienced player who has been exposed to several different games and one fairly inexperienced one. Both of them were playing in my CT game prior to the T5 release. Two other players began playing after I introduced T5, and they're completely new to the hobby.

 

[cym0k]

Asking them to leave a system to use a new one assumes that they are already Travellers. My lot aren't. Like me it would be a fresh adventure in a new system. /InAtTheDeepEnd

 

[Shonner]

Asking them to leave a system to use a new one assumes that they are already Travellers. My lot aren't. Like me it would be a fresh adventure in a new system. /InAtTheDeepEnd

Or they could be role-players that just haven't played any Traveller before. And they will come with rules they are already used to from their games.

 

[Ector]

First off, my books will never go on EBay. Not in my lifetime. Traveller was something that, while I have not played much in ages, has always had a special place in my experiences and memories. I am proud and glad to be a part of this latest incarnation.

Well I will never sell my stuff too, despite the fact that I failed to understand it. After all, I probably have the only BBB in my country (Belarus), and that makes me proud Plus, I fully realize that I could devote more effort to learning the book.

Second, for those who are abandoning T5, coming to the T5 forum and voicing the anger, and complaints beyond a certain point is not helpful. It might even harm any attempts at sales if you decide to recoup what you see as a loss. Informing your target market how little the product rates in your eyes, might convince the very folks you are trying to sell to, to not buy what you are selling.

I have absolutely no knowledge in marketing, and the only reason of creating this thread was to find some support, as the book made me feel myself stupid. I was always proud of my intelligence; still this was too hard for me. In many cases I couldn't understand why the material was included in the book, why the rules were needed at all, and why they couldn't be simpler. This thread finally conviced me that I'm not alone who didn't manage to fully understand the book

It could use better organization, granted, but again, considering the magnitude of the task, it is not sufficient for me to give up on it.

Bad organization isn't the main problem alas. The game rules should be simple and effective. These rules are far from being simple, and some mechanics are almost obviously excessive, like 10 dice rolling.

 

[Licheking]

The only person at the gaming table who needs to know the rules is the GM. The players only need to know how their characters think and act, and roughly what they can do in terms of their skills and abilities. This can be told to them in a very general way, such as Skill-1 is novice, Skill-3 is competent and Skill-5+ is master. From there the GM should be telling the players what the difficulty of certain tasks are and then resolving them.

I don't want players telling me that they are going to fix something and they think they should be rolling 3D under Engineer and Edu. The player will tell me that they want to fix something i will then tell them the difficulty and the C+S that applies. The Players shouldn't be thinking about the mechanics of the game they should be just immersed in the universe and acting or reacting to it as their characters would.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Players that don't know the rules.

I'd have to say that players not knowing the rules, does not mean that the ref is just playing with themselves. In fact if your RPG games are simply a load of dice roles and not much story telling then it's really not role playing, better to go play yahtzee or something like that.

As long as players are thinking about the story, acting out there characters and getting into the story, everyone wins. Not even the best Ref's I've played with know all the rules either. When needed it's nearly always looked up. To that I would say great. I'd much rather a ref concentrated on a great story than got bogged down with dice rolling.

To me, the dice rolling is purely for the element of chance and the determination of failure or success for tasks beyond normal or day to day routine familiarity.

I always prefer a puzzle that involves working it out for real to simply role the dice 'yes or no' kind of deal.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

The only person at the gaming table who needs to know the rules is the GM. The players only need to know how their characters think and act, and roughly what they can do in terms of their skills and abilities. This can be told to them in a very general way, such as Skill-1 is novice, Skill-3 is competent and Skill-5+ is master. From there the GM should be telling the players what the difficulty of certain tasks are and then resolving them.

I don't want players telling me that they are going to fix something and they think they should be rolling 3D under Engineer and Edu. The player will tell me that they want to fix something i will then tell them the difficulty and the C+S that applies. The Players shouldn't be thinking about the mechanics of the game they should be just immersed in the universe and acting or reacting to it as their characters would.

Spot on Licheking. I second this. (Worse is when you get arguments about the dice roles from the players).

 

[Stei'awtliyrl]

I'm slowly unlocking the code of T5. Worldbuilding is actually living up to what I expected for the new edition. I can go as broad or as detailed as I need to. Which is a good thing.

The Flux roll is showing it's innovation, so much so that I'm wondering why Flux wasn't incorporated as the base task roll instead of the nD6 mechanic.

The accessibility remains an issue with me, not only because Traveller is a niche within a niche of a niche market, but because it *has* a bad reputation. Traveller, when mentioned in my gaming community often returns a response of "oh, that that game where you can die during character creation". Now I know that death during character gen has not been a feature for the last 20 years of game editions (though it's still an option). But it's a negative perception. Making the game so difficult to learn, gives another reason to pass it by on New Games Day at my FLGS, or at my Local Game Convention.

Which is a problem, considering none of us are getting any younger and Traveller needs a new generation of players to keep it as a living game system.

 

[nats]

Traveller, when mentioned in my gaming community often returns a response of "oh, that that game where you can die during character creation". Now I know that death during character gen has not been a feature for the last 20 years of game editions (though it's still an option). But it's a negative perception. Making the game so difficult to learn, gives another reason to pass it by on New Games Day at my FLGS, or at my Local Game Convention.

Which is a problem, considering none of us are getting any younger and Traveller needs a new generation of players to keep it as a living game system.

I dont see the dying during rolls as being negative, more unique. And if most people remember that then its a major marketing point of the game that probably shouldnt have been changed by MgT and T5. I always liked it.

But yes the complexity of T5 is not going to win any new fans. The present book has been a massive own goal and I think everybody is waiting for what will be Marc's next move. Is he going to make a startlingly good creative move and show he still has the balls to still be an innovator in this market or is he going to make a a lazy half arsed move and ensure T5 just dies a lingering slow death.

The fact he hasnt once communicated anything on this forum that I have ever seen is a good enough indication to me that T5 is dead in the water, he has no interest in doing anything with it or any interest in creating a whole new Traveller line at all. It was all about it being an albatross around his neck and also one last ditch attempt to make lots of money out of the Traveller name.

If it isnt where the heck is he? Why isnt he on this forum every day communicating with his fans? Its either he doesnt care or he is very arrogant. Either way it aint good.