Fire Combat that is a little more realistic...

[Supplement Four]

This is one of thos brain-storming posts. A "What If We Did THIS?" type of thing...

See what you think. Throw in your two cents...




You think about real life gunfire. You consider paint ball, and you play computer games that are one-hit-one-kill like Operation Flashpoint and Ghost Recon.

Games where you don't have "hit points". Games where you can die from a single bullet wound.

I'm just brain-twisting this, but see what you think...

What if Traveller combat was tweaked with the above in mind? What if, when you're standing out in the open, and attacker will hit you with an 8+ roll. You should think about cover, right? If you're playing paint ball, you rarely move out into the open--you're always looking for cover. Same thing with Ghost Recon. You move out into the open, and you're dead. Cover-to-cover is what you look for.

What if we made Traveller gun combat more like this?

=================================================




DAMAGE

Gun Combat: Damage is applied like the First Blood rule. That is, all damage from a weapon (all damage dice) are taken from a single random physical stat (every time a hit is scored in gun combat). If there is any "left over" damage, it is transferred, randomly, to one of the remaining two physical stats, and so on.




Conversly, Brawling or Blade Combat will be a little more forgiving.

Brawling or Blade Combat: Whether with melee weapons or with hands (or even animal weapons like claws and horns), damage is applied at the defender's choice. That is, damage is taken in D6 lumps, applied to characteristics at the defender's choice.




And, then, Armor will be used to reduce wounds:
Armor is used to decrease damage, as shown in my HOUSE RULES.





------------------------------------------------
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">GUN COMBAT
8+ Target Base Number to-hit.
-N Target Speed DM (Speed-0, Speed-1, Speed-2, etc.)
+/-N Target Range DM
+/-N Attacker's DEX DM
+N Attacker's Skill DM
-2 Panic Fire DM
-N Evasion DM
-N Cover/Concealment DM</pre>[/QUOTE]-------------------------------------------------
Example

Let's take a look at Joe "Average Joe" Beercan with an M-16 assault rifle. He's got DEX-7 and Rifle-2.

Target is at Medium Range (I figure the majority of encounters in Traveller happen at Medium Range), and the target, aware that he is being shot at, is using both cover and evasion to his fullest advantage. The target's no idiot. He doesn't want to get shot.

Joe Beercan needs a base 8+ to hit.

-0 for Target Speed-0 (stationary behind cover).
+2 for AutoRifle at Medium Range.
+0 for Joe's DEX DM.
+2 for Joe's Skill DM.
-2 for Target Evasion at Medium Range.
-4 for Target Cover DM
---
-2



Joe Beercan will roll 2D -2 for 8+ (2D for 10+) in order to hit his target. That's a 17% chance that Joe will hit.

If Joe uses full auto, he'll get two attack throws. This will up Joe's odds with a 31% chance of hitting at least once of the two attacks.

If Joe uses single fire with the Panic Fire rule, Joe can attempt 3 attacks within the round as long as he takes an additional -2 DM penalty on each attack. With Panic Fire, Joe's attack roll jumps to 2D for 12+. This gives Joe a 3% chance of success on any single shot and a 9% chance that he'll hit at least once.

Joe can combine Panic Fire with Full Auto, giving him a whopping six attack throws at 2D for 12+ each. This is a 18% chance that Joe will hit at least once.




Now, let's consider a little more accomplished Traveller character than joe average. Peter Martini is DEX-A with Rifle-3, and he's making the same shot as Joe at the same target.

Peter Martini needs a base 8+ to hit.

-0 for Target Speed-0 (stationary behind cover).
+2 for AutoRifle at Medium Range.
+2 for Joe's DEX DM.
+3 for Joe's Skill DM.
-2 for Target Evasion at Medium Range.
-4 for Target Cover DM
---
+1



Peter Martini will throw 2D +1 for 8+ to hit the same target (2D for 7+). With a single shot, that's a 58% chance of success.

Peter, using Full Auto, makes that roll twice, has about an 82% chance of making hit at least once.

Using the Panic Fire rule, Pete's attack becomes 2D for 9+, giving him a 28% chance on a single attack. Fired three times, this is a 82% probability that at least one attack will succeed.

Using Panic Fire and Full Auto, Pete will throw six attacks, hitting on a roll of 2D for 9+. This will give Pete over a 100% chance of hitting at least once during those six attacks.








-------------------------------------------------
Thoughts

Can a character get outright killed with a single shot using this system?

Unlikely.

Traveller weapons just don't do enough damage, even using the First Blood Rule, to kill outright with a single shot unless the character has really low physical stats and the damage roll is very high.

Suggestion: Add 1D to the damage roll when the hit location indicates "head". And, remove 1D of the damage roll when the hit location indicates "arm". Leave Torso and Leg hit locations with unmodified weapon damage.




Automatic Fire: Auto fire allows two attacks per autofire burst. In order to represent recoil, should a penalty DM be applied to subsequent attacks using autofire?

First attack roll is thrown without penalty.

Second attack roll is at -1DM.

And, when the Panic Fire rule is used with full auto, maybe:

Attack Throw #1: -2 DM for Panic Fire.

Attack Throw #2: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -1 DM for recoil.

Attack Throw #3: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -2 DM for recoil.

Attack Throw #4: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -3 DM for recoil.

Attack Throw #5: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -4 DM for recoil.

Attack Throw #6: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -5 DM for recoil.





Thoughts on any of this?

 

[Supplement Four]

This is one of thos brain-storming posts. A "What If We Did THIS?" type of thing...

See what you think. Throw in your two cents...




You think about real life gunfire. You consider paint ball, and you play computer games that are one-hit-one-kill like Operation Flashpoint and Ghost Recon.

Games where you don't have "hit points". Games where you can die from a single bullet wound.

I'm just brain-twisting this, but see what you think...

What if Traveller combat was tweaked with the above in mind? What if, when you're standing out in the open, and attacker will hit you with an 8+ roll. You should think about cover, right? If you're playing paint ball, you rarely move out into the open--you're always looking for cover. Same thing with Ghost Recon. You move out into the open, and you're dead. Cover-to-cover is what you look for.

What if we made Traveller gun combat more like this?

=================================================




DAMAGE

Gun Combat: Damage is applied like the First Blood rule. That is, all damage from a weapon (all damage dice) are taken from a single random physical stat (every time a hit is scored in gun combat). If there is any "left over" damage, it is transferred, randomly, to one of the remaining two physical stats, and so on.




Conversly, Brawling or Blade Combat will be a little more forgiving.

Brawling or Blade Combat: Whether with melee weapons or with hands (or even animal weapons like claws and horns), damage is applied at the defender's choice. That is, damage is taken in D6 lumps, applied to characteristics at the defender's choice.




And, then, Armor will be used to reduce wounds:
Armor is used to decrease damage, as shown in my HOUSE RULES.





------------------------------------------------
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">GUN COMBAT
8+ Target Base Number to-hit.
-N Target Speed DM (Speed-0, Speed-1, Speed-2, etc.)
+/-N Target Range DM
+/-N Attacker's DEX DM
+N Attacker's Skill DM
-2 Panic Fire DM
-N Evasion DM
-N Cover/Concealment DM</pre>[/QUOTE]-------------------------------------------------
Example

Let's take a look at Joe "Average Joe" Beercan with an M-16 assault rifle. He's got DEX-7 and Rifle-2.

Target is at Medium Range (I figure the majority of encounters in Traveller happen at Medium Range), and the target, aware that he is being shot at, is using both cover and evasion to his fullest advantage. The target's no idiot. He doesn't want to get shot.

Joe Beercan needs a base 8+ to hit.

-0 for Target Speed-0 (stationary behind cover).
+2 for AutoRifle at Medium Range.
+0 for Joe's DEX DM.
+2 for Joe's Skill DM.
-2 for Target Evasion at Medium Range.
-4 for Target Cover DM
---
-2



Joe Beercan will roll 2D -2 for 8+ (2D for 10+) in order to hit his target. That's a 17% chance that Joe will hit.

If Joe uses full auto, he'll get two attack throws. This will up Joe's odds with a 31% chance of hitting at least once of the two attacks.

If Joe uses single fire with the Panic Fire rule, Joe can attempt 3 attacks within the round as long as he takes an additional -2 DM penalty on each attack. With Panic Fire, Joe's attack roll jumps to 2D for 12+. This gives Joe a 3% chance of success on any single shot and a 9% chance that he'll hit at least once.

Joe can combine Panic Fire with Full Auto, giving him a whopping six attack throws at 2D for 12+ each. This is a 18% chance that Joe will hit at least once.




Now, let's consider a little more accomplished Traveller character than joe average. Peter Martini is DEX-A with Rifle-3, and he's making the same shot as Joe at the same target.

Peter Martini needs a base 8+ to hit.

-0 for Target Speed-0 (stationary behind cover).
+2 for AutoRifle at Medium Range.
+2 for Joe's DEX DM.
+3 for Joe's Skill DM.
-2 for Target Evasion at Medium Range.
-4 for Target Cover DM
---
+1



Peter Martini will throw 2D +1 for 8+ to hit the same target (2D for 7+). With a single shot, that's a 58% chance of success.

Peter, using Full Auto, makes that roll twice, has about an 82% chance of making hit at least once.

Using the Panic Fire rule, Pete's attack becomes 2D for 9+, giving him a 28% chance on a single attack. Fired three times, this is a 82% probability that at least one attack will succeed.

Using Panic Fire and Full Auto, Pete will throw six attacks, hitting on a roll of 2D for 9+. This will give Pete over a 100% chance of hitting at least once during those six attacks.








-------------------------------------------------
Thoughts

Can a character get outright killed with a single shot using this system?

Unlikely.

Traveller weapons just don't do enough damage, even using the First Blood Rule, to kill outright with a single shot unless the character has really low physical stats and the damage roll is very high.

Suggestion: Add 1D to the damage roll when the hit location indicates "head". And, remove 1D of the damage roll when the hit location indicates "arm". Leave Torso and Leg hit locations with unmodified weapon damage.




Automatic Fire: Auto fire allows two attacks per autofire burst. In order to represent recoil, should a penalty DM be applied to subsequent attacks using autofire?

First attack roll is thrown without penalty.

Second attack roll is at -1DM.

And, when the Panic Fire rule is used with full auto, maybe:

Attack Throw #1: -2 DM for Panic Fire.

Attack Throw #2: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -1 DM for recoil.

Attack Throw #3: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -2 DM for recoil.

Attack Throw #4: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -3 DM for recoil.

Attack Throw #5: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -4 DM for recoil.

Attack Throw #6: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -5 DM for recoil.





Thoughts on any of this?

 

[jrmapes]

It looks good to me.

Here is something I have been thinking about along the same recoil vein. It may be too much or something you may be interested in.

One thing I would like to see incorporated would be weapon recoil values. Granted this may make things more complicated but all weapons have different recoil. Some really big weapons like the newest of the 50 cal sniper systems have less recoil than say and old Springfield 30-06. Even a short barrelled SMG in full auto will sometimes have more recoil than some assault rifles of higher calibre when used in full auto. Hand guns vary greatly when it comes to recoil. Some of the new semi-autos have much less recoil than other models of the same calibre.

Basically we are just looking at slug throwers but we could also take Laser and other energy weapons into consideration as well.

I don't think this would over complicate things since it would just be a single modifier added or subtracted. However where it may become a problem is that the weapons list would have to be gone over and modified to reflect the proper recoil values. Then another thing is do we wish to expand the weapons list to include many different models/calibres of weapons. Now I would not recommend adding every model possible but maybe a select few of each category/calibre.

Another option and one that I think would work the best is to use the list out of Striker Book 3 and add an average recoil value for each weapon listed. If we just use the much more generic listings out of LBB1 then we use the average recoil value from the Striker Book 3 that most matches up with the LBB1 description.

If a player wants a specific model/manufacturer then that would show on his sheet for "fluff" purposes but the weapon values would remain from the broader category.

As for adding a recoil penalty I don't think a recoil penalty should be tacked on till the 3rd burst since there would be a recoil factor being added in already and 3 round burst auto fire is pretty standard and that is usually how the weapons are taught to be used in firefight situations.

So your chart would change like this.
--------------------------------------------------

Automatic Fire:

First attack roll is thrown without penalty.

Second attack roll is thrown without penalty.

Third attack roll is subject to -1 DM for recoil

And, when the Panic Fire rule is used with full auto:

Attack Throw #1: -2 DM for Panic Fire.

Attack Throw #2: -2 DM for Panic Fire.

Attack Throw #3: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -1 DM for recoil.

Attack Throw #4: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -2 DM for recoil.

Attack Throw #5: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -3 DM for recoil.

Attack Throw #6: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -4 DM for recoil.

--------------------------------------------------

Extended recoil modifiers could be taken into account if the player declares the weapon Bracedsuch as being held steady on a sandbag or wall or vehicle -- which would reduce the recoil value by 1. This is primarily for weapons that are not made for bi pod or other devices that are intended for steadying of the weapon.

If the weapon is made to have a bi pod or similar steadying device, then when the bi pod, etc. is used the recoil value is reduced by 2. Bracing and Bi pod modifiers do not stack.

Now it is just a matter of figureing out what the recoil values would be and what factors should be taken into account to come to a recoil value.

Regardless of my ramblings I don't think a recoil penalty should be imposed until the 3rd burst for the reasons stated above plus by the time you hit the 3rd burst, that is when sight picture recovery starts becoming harder to re-achieve and it only gets worse from there. Of course even in burst fire, recovering the sight picture is much much easier than keeping the sight picture in fully auto fire.

 

[jrmapes]

It looks good to me.

Here is something I have been thinking about along the same recoil vein. It may be too much or something you may be interested in.

One thing I would like to see incorporated would be weapon recoil values. Granted this may make things more complicated but all weapons have different recoil. Some really big weapons like the newest of the 50 cal sniper systems have less recoil than say and old Springfield 30-06. Even a short barrelled SMG in full auto will sometimes have more recoil than some assault rifles of higher calibre when used in full auto. Hand guns vary greatly when it comes to recoil. Some of the new semi-autos have much less recoil than other models of the same calibre.

Basically we are just looking at slug throwers but we could also take Laser and other energy weapons into consideration as well.

I don't think this would over complicate things since it would just be a single modifier added or subtracted. However where it may become a problem is that the weapons list would have to be gone over and modified to reflect the proper recoil values. Then another thing is do we wish to expand the weapons list to include many different models/calibres of weapons. Now I would not recommend adding every model possible but maybe a select few of each category/calibre.

Another option and one that I think would work the best is to use the list out of Striker Book 3 and add an average recoil value for each weapon listed. If we just use the much more generic listings out of LBB1 then we use the average recoil value from the Striker Book 3 that most matches up with the LBB1 description.

If a player wants a specific model/manufacturer then that would show on his sheet for "fluff" purposes but the weapon values would remain from the broader category.

As for adding a recoil penalty I don't think a recoil penalty should be tacked on till the 3rd burst since there would be a recoil factor being added in already and 3 round burst auto fire is pretty standard and that is usually how the weapons are taught to be used in firefight situations.

So your chart would change like this.
--------------------------------------------------

Automatic Fire:

First attack roll is thrown without penalty.

Second attack roll is thrown without penalty.

Third attack roll is subject to -1 DM for recoil

And, when the Panic Fire rule is used with full auto:

Attack Throw #1: -2 DM for Panic Fire.

Attack Throw #2: -2 DM for Panic Fire.

Attack Throw #3: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -1 DM for recoil.

Attack Throw #4: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -2 DM for recoil.

Attack Throw #5: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -3 DM for recoil.

Attack Throw #6: -2 DM for Panic Fire, and -4 DM for recoil.

--------------------------------------------------

Extended recoil modifiers could be taken into account if the player declares the weapon Bracedsuch as being held steady on a sandbag or wall or vehicle -- which would reduce the recoil value by 1. This is primarily for weapons that are not made for bi pod or other devices that are intended for steadying of the weapon.

If the weapon is made to have a bi pod or similar steadying device, then when the bi pod, etc. is used the recoil value is reduced by 2. Bracing and Bi pod modifiers do not stack.

Now it is just a matter of figureing out what the recoil values would be and what factors should be taken into account to come to a recoil value.

Regardless of my ramblings I don't think a recoil penalty should be imposed until the 3rd burst for the reasons stated above plus by the time you hit the 3rd burst, that is when sight picture recovery starts becoming harder to re-achieve and it only gets worse from there. Of course even in burst fire, recovering the sight picture is much much easier than keeping the sight picture in fully auto fire.

 

[SgtHulka]

Just use snapshot. It's essentially boardgame paintball.

The key component to what you're describing is the "cover" action in snapshot. It's all about using the Cover action to force your opponent "to ground" and then let non-covering team-mates maneuver to the opponent's rear or close for a high-probability shot. Just like paintball. There are a lot of ways to describe it..."pinning down" your opponent, "suppressing" him, or providing "covering fire" for your maneuvering team-mates.

Snapshot uses a rule where all the damage from a first shot goes to a single characteristic. Therefore if you ever get shot at all, there's a high probability you go down. Better to establish fire corridors so as never to open up your ownself to return fire. If you do have to brave cover fire, you "rush" across it to give yourself a defensive DM...which is exactly what you describe about running from cover to cover...or you try to "sneak" across it which is basically crawling on your belly.

AHL makes it even more "realistic" by forcing covering characters to actual expend ammunition.

MegaTraveller achieves this effect with their interrupt mechanic iirc.

Striker achieves it with the opponent fire phase occuring before the native fire phase, and allowing the opponent to fire at any time during native movement.

 

[SgtHulka]

Just use snapshot. It's essentially boardgame paintball.

The key component to what you're describing is the "cover" action in snapshot. It's all about using the Cover action to force your opponent "to ground" and then let non-covering team-mates maneuver to the opponent's rear or close for a high-probability shot. Just like paintball. There are a lot of ways to describe it..."pinning down" your opponent, "suppressing" him, or providing "covering fire" for your maneuvering team-mates.

Snapshot uses a rule where all the damage from a first shot goes to a single characteristic. Therefore if you ever get shot at all, there's a high probability you go down. Better to establish fire corridors so as never to open up your ownself to return fire. If you do have to brave cover fire, you "rush" across it to give yourself a defensive DM...which is exactly what you describe about running from cover to cover...or you try to "sneak" across it which is basically crawling on your belly.

AHL makes it even more "realistic" by forcing covering characters to actual expend ammunition.

MegaTraveller achieves this effect with their interrupt mechanic iirc.

Striker achieves it with the opponent fire phase occuring before the native fire phase, and allowing the opponent to fire at any time during native movement.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by SgtHulka:
Just use snapshot. It's essentially boardgame paintball.

Naw, tactical point games like Snapshot and At Close Quarters bog the game down too much for my tastes. I want my players "living the moment", not figuring action points.

Besides, the "damage" is the same in Snapshot as it is in official Traveller--something I was inching a little more towards realism.

-S4

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by SgtHulka:
Just use snapshot. It's essentially boardgame paintball.

Naw, tactical point games like Snapshot and At Close Quarters bog the game down too much for my tastes. I want my players "living the moment", not figuring action points.

Besides, the "damage" is the same in Snapshot as it is in official Traveller--something I was inching a little more towards realism.

-S4

 

[SgtHulka]

Then maybe you should take a look at the interrupt mechanic in MegaTraveller. It's basically the same idea but without miniatures, action points, or a board.

I don't have the player's manuel with me right now, but iirc it makes "interrupting" another character's action a task roll. They provide the specific example of someone sprinting from cover to cover and someone else trying to gun them down when they're in the open. It seemed like a really clever mechanic to me when I read it.

 

[SgtHulka]

Then maybe you should take a look at the interrupt mechanic in MegaTraveller. It's basically the same idea but without miniatures, action points, or a board.

I don't have the player's manuel with me right now, but iirc it makes "interrupting" another character's action a task roll. They provide the specific example of someone sprinting from cover to cover and someone else trying to gun them down when they're in the open. It seemed like a really clever mechanic to me when I read it.