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Fleet densities in YTU

Murph

SOC-14 1K
I generally had a higher fleet/ship density than some. A typical Subsector Navy had:

1-2 squadrons Battleships or Battlecruisers
2-4 squadrons of cruisers (heavy or light)
4-6 squadrons of destroyers/frigates
plus various squadrons of support ships such as assault transports, assault cargo ships, hospital ships, etc.
Some subsectors close to the Frontier had much heavier forces depending on where they were. All Imperial Navy ships were either TL 14 or TL 15. Planetary navies were whatever they could buy and support.

2-12 regiments of Marines
1-2 regiments of Marine Commandos

Sector Fleets added under the Sector Admiral:

2-4 Battlesquadrons
4-10 cruiser squadrons
10-16 escort squadrons
Plus supporting ships as required to transport all the Marines.
4-12 regiments of Marines
2-6 regiments of Marine Commandos


Imperial Reserve squadrons were almost all battle/cruiser squadrons.

A squadron was 8 ships grouped in 2 divisions each under a Commodore, and commanded by a Rear Admiral. DesRons were commanded by a Commodore with DesDivs commanded by a Captain.
 
I base my fleets on the 5FW board game and the Spinward Marches Campaign book. I assume that for each counter the defence factor represents the number of capital ships. And no two fleets are alike.

I have one relatively small fleet detailed out for an old campaign: the 214th Fleet based out of Glisten/Glisten ... 2 batrons, 3 crurons, and 1 Colonial cruron under the flag of Admiral Kantaris N. Româo. Total shipping for that fleet was ...


1 x Lurenti class Battle Tender
7 x Nolikian class Battle Riders
4 x Plankwell class Dreadnaughts
1 x Wind class Strike Carrier
1 x Arakoine class Strike Cruiser
6 x Ghalalk class Armored Cruisers
4 x Atlantic class Heavy Cruisers
8 x Gionetti class Light Cruisers
3 x Ghent class Medical Frigates
5 x Workhorse class Ordanance Carriers
7 x Midu Agashaam class Destroyers
6 x Gormandoacy class Destroyers
12 x Chrysanthemum class Destroyer Escorts
6 x Fer-de-lance class Destroyer Escorts
11 x PF Sloan class Fleet Escorts
2 x Kinunir class Colonial Cruisers
8 x Lurushaar Kilaalum class Patrol Cruisers
28 x Gazelle class Close Escorts
240 x Fury class Heavy Fighters
140 x Hawk class Strike Fighters
165 x Mineral class Cutters
12 x Rosendal class Shuttles
8 x Boquist class Pinnace
8 x Versiil class Ship's Boat
28 x Horizon class Gigs
8 x Resolve class G-Carrier
24 x Traveler class Air/Rafts

(However, the troop contingent is wrong and I keep meaning to fix it.)
 
I base my fleets on the 5FW board game and the Spinward Marches Campaign book.
The problem with that is twofold. First of all, FFW's troop strengths are based on the assumption that all worlds have a population multiplier of 1 (because the PM was introduced later). That means they are low by a factor between 1 and 9. For ships that would be by something like 3-5. That is, there should be from three to five times more ships than FFW shows (Which, by coincidence or not, makes the numbers in RbS pretty much spot on). Second, FFW and SMC only mentions fleets and squadrons that were actually involved in the fighting. For example, SMC doesn't mention any fleets in Mora and Trin's Veil, and it is IMO extremely unlikely that the two senior subsectors in the Spinward Marches wouldn't have had a fleet each stationed in them. For another example, there doesn't seem to be a squadron counter that corresponds to Tigress squadrons, and we know that there is one stationed in the Marches and more available for reinforcements in Deneb and Corridor.

I have one relatively small fleet detailed out for an old campaign: the 214th Fleet based out of Glisten/Glisten ... 2 batrons, 3 crurons, and 1 Colonial cruron under the flag of Admiral Kantaris N. Româo. Total shipping for that fleet was ...


1 x Lurenti class Battle Tender
7 x Nolikian class Battle Riders​

Note that although billed as a BatRon in SMC, the 154th is actually a CruRon, since its combat element is seven 20,000T vessels. As riders they are more capable than 20,000T cruisers, but if the 154th really was a match for a squadron of Kokkiraks or Plankwells, who would build a battleship instead of the seven or eight Nolikans you could get for the same amount of money?

4 x Plankwell class Dreadnaughts
Historically, the last Plankwell squadron was rotated out of the Marches in 1102.

(Disclaimer: Nothing in this post is meant to indicate that you're not perfectly entitled to do whatever you want in your own TU.)


Hans​
 
The problem with that is twofold. First of all, FFW's troop strengths are based on the assumption that all worlds have a population multiplier of 1 (because the PM was introduced later). That means they are low by a factor between 1 and 9.

Fair point. As I said the troop units in the write up were wrong anyway. I'm missing troop transports too.



For ships that would be by something like 3-5.

I'm being dense this morning, could you explain that figure?



Second, FFW and SMC only mentions fleets and squadrons that were actually involved in the fighting. For example, SMC doesn't mention any fleets in Mora and Trin's Veil, and it is IMO extremely unlikely that the two senior subsectors in the Spinward Marches wouldn't have had a fleet each stationed in them.

Actually they don't mention any Colonial fleets even though there are some Colonial squadrons in the game. My feeling is that you are right, there would be some additional Colonial forces (especially at places like Mora).



(Disclaimer: Nothing in this post is meant to indicate that you're not perfectly entitled to do whatever you want in your own TU.)

No problem. There were some useful observations for when I eventually get around to redoing some of this stuff. I must admit I used the 5FW/SMC combo out of a certain laziness ... it provides the right balance for me between the 'small ship' Imperium of early Traveller and the sillyness of FSotSI, and provides plenty of background on which to hang my campaign settings. However, it is on my pile of 1001 projects to detail out the fleets of the Imperium (including the Spinward Marches) properly at some point. In the meantime this works as a 'ballpark' estimate.
 
I'm being dense this morning, could you explain that figure?
Some of the worlds (those with multiplier 9) are low by a factor 9. But those with PM 1 aren't low at all. The theoretical average is 5, but there are several high-population worlds with PM 1, and they affect the total budget a lot. So the navy (which is based on all the worlds together) would be low by something less than a factor 5. I haven't sat down and worked out the correct figure, because we don't know if the Spinward Marches tax figures are above the average 3% -- it's kinda likely that defense spending would be higher in the Marches than in Core.


Hans
 
Ah, I see. However, in addition to the mathematical mistake of not taking PM into account there is also a conceptual mistake in that systems in the Imperial core will use less of a defence budget for themselves but transfer funds and resources to the border regions (like the Spinward Marches). A ‘crust’ defence. I suspect if you really want to do it properly you'd need to run a variation of Pocket Empires over the entire Imperium ... possibly with each subsector as a pocket empire and aggregating ‘surpluses’ into a central Imperial Treasury. A not inconsequential task.
 
I suspect if you really want to do it properly you'd need to run a variation of Pocket Empires over the entire Imperium ... possibly with each subsector as a pocket empire and aggregating ‘surpluses’ into a central Imperial Treasury. A not inconsequential task.

I think you just made a monumental understatement :rofl:.
 
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Ah, I see. However, in addition to the mathematical mistake of not taking PM into account there is also a conceptual mistake in that systems in the Imperial core will use less of a defence budget for themselves but transfer funds and resources to the border regions (like the Spinward Marches). A ‘crust’ defence. I suspect if you really want to do it properly you'd need to run a variation of Pocket Empires over the entire Imperium ... possibly with each subsector as a pocket empire and aggregating ‘surpluses’ into a central Imperial Treasury. A not inconsequential task.
But fortunately not a necessary task. I don't think an exact figure is needed (especially since there are far too many factors to take into account). What I require is a plausible result. An answer to the question, what is a plausible average size and composition for a numbered Imperial fleet? Once you have that, you can look at specific fleets and ponder if they would be bigger or smaller than the average and how the composition would differ. Or you can start by deciding what size you want to fleet in THAT subsector to have and then see how plausible it is. If it's fairly reasonable, you don't need to explain it; if it's implausible, you need to come up with an explanation (or change your mind).


Hans
 
But fortunately not a necessary task. I don't think an exact figure is needed (especially since there are far too many factors to take into account). What I require is a plausible result. An answer to the question, what is a plausible average size and composition for a numbered Imperial fleet? Once you have that, you can look at specific fleets and ponder if they would be bigger or smaller than the average and how the composition would differ. Or you can start by deciding what size you want to fleet in THAT subsector to have and then see how plausible it is. If it's fairly reasonable, you don't need to explain it; if it's implausible, you need to come up with an explanation (or change your mind).
Hans

I started a project like that, once. The idea was to figure out statistically the number of planets of a given population and budget within an 'average' subsector using the info in LBB3/6 and Striker, and hence figure the budget and fleet size, then multiply up to figure the budget and fleet size for a Sector, and then the Empire.
Needless to say, I got bogged down, then I discovered PE and had to start from scratch, then I recognised the size of the task with PE and gave up.

Now, if I'm asked how big the local Imperial fleet is, my answer is "big enough".

IMTU The Imperial navy is invariably the GM's Big Stick, and it's as big and powerful (or as locally stressed and limited) as I need it to be.
 
I generally had a higher fleet/ship density than some. A typical Subsector Navy had:

1-2 squadrons Battleships or Battlecruisers
2-4 squadrons of cruisers (heavy or light)
4-6 squadrons of destroyers/frigates
plus various squadrons of support ships such as assault transports, assault cargo ships, hospital ships, etc.
Some subsectors close to the Frontier had much heavier forces depending on where they were. All Imperial Navy ships were either TL 14 or TL 15. Planetary navies were whatever they could buy and support.

2-12 regiments of Marines
1-2 regiments of Marine Commandos

Sector Fleets added under the Sector Admiral:

2-4 Battlesquadrons
4-10 cruiser squadrons
10-16 escort squadrons
Plus supporting ships as required to transport all the Marines.
4-12 regiments of Marines
2-6 regiments of Marine Commandos


Imperial Reserve squadrons were almost all battle/cruiser squadrons.

A squadron was 8 ships grouped in 2 divisions each under a Commodore, and commanded by a Rear Admiral. DesRons were commanded by a Commodore with DesDivs commanded by a Captain.

Not totally unreasonable.

Though I tend to use TCS to estimate Fleet sizes, and very quickly run to Very Large Numbers. Mora, by itself, can support a Navy of about 50,000,000 tons. Which suggests that the Spinward Marches, by itself, can maintain a billion tons or so of warships. At 200,000 tons per battleship, that's more warships than any sane GM wants to have around - who really needs a dozen or so battleships plus supporting cruisers and such around every world in the sector, after all?
 
Simply put; sparse!

The Scout service can't even establish regular contact other than a multi-month scout/courier visit for many worlds of the imperium. Much like that the Imperial Navy presence for many worlds is just a gazelle every couple months, only not any fixed schedule, if that. They're also the folks with enough nuclear missiles to strilize worlds forever, and not only the skill and practice but willingness if need be to do so.

For me the Imperial Navy *is* focused on enforcing the rules of the Imperium and maintaining interstellar military presence and lines of communication. Megacorporations play a big role in this. There will be major fleet presence at the heavily industrialized/high-tech/high-population worlds, and escorts for the major shipping that that connects these worlds, mostly on the scale of a cruiser or two (maybe) and and 6-10 destroyers. Even more traffic to/from these lines with naval bases, like the cargo ship semi-annual run with nuclear missile resupply for the fleet. Some worlds have high SDB defense networks.

There are fleets proper, due to the emporer of the flags aspect, they are major political (and military force!) players. Sector fleets as the "main" fleets of the imperial navy, not under direct and local control of capital. Capital will have more than one fleet, at large on deployments/mission/liasons with the various sector fleets. Spirit of like the baron wars of medieval times. Emporers have claimed that title by bringing their fleet to Capital...

The Capital Imperial "proper" fleets really do serve a PR role of "showing the flag" by sheer ability to travel interstellar large tonnages of ships, reclaiming humanity from the collapse of the 2nd imperium and the long night, striking awe (and terror?) into the lesser worlds of the imperium, and often even the major worlds!

Subsector "fleets" may have some cruisers and destroyers at the subsector capital, the vast majority though world/group of world mobilizable subsidized merchants, ensuring trade (patrolling) groups of worlds. IMTU subsidized merchants are usually quasi military/militarizeable vessels for that very reason.
Nobles play a large role here. Subsector military fleets would tend to be battle riders with the transports kept/controlled by the subsector capital, or even dependant on Sector navy for transport (!)

IMTU the navy does *not* have a gazillion J6 courier order/news/comm system set up imperium wide. If you need a message sent send a trusted commander and his ships.

The megacorporations themselves have fleets, like some of the tradewars stuff, or mention in Axhanti High Lightning of "privatized" vessels. Armies are carried by the navy, so there are big fleets of cruisers to transport regiments and such for major wars of conquest, all carefully designed sized and managed so as to be able to be destroyed by the navy fleets <s>. The multi kt transports are often the biggest ships around and are like a cruiser, tbh, outmassing their destroyer escorts.

Fleets also are actual assemblages of ships, there aren't so many of them they're all over everywhere, they tend to be in an area, regularly try to establish and maintain contact and awareness of other fleets compositions, locations, movement, and communications as well. this is most of the fleets day to day activity.

On a darker note, Capital has attained TL15, but the vast majority of the fleet are recovered/refurbished TL12-13 Solomani 2nd Imperium ships as a core supported by TL8-11/12 Vilani Bureau fleets. Much more common J2 or J3 vessels making multiple jumps for further travel. The advantage of Capitals' TL is a greater range of operation for travels of it's fleets.

Of fleet composition and type, i tend to not like the ones from ships of the imperium cause they not too thought out often. My goal is to have the destroyers be the rocks of ~1kt missile havey armor, Lt Cruisers of meson Spinal say 20ktish or the smaller PA spinals, and Heavy Cruisers PA spinals. Translation Vilani Kt Missile destroyers, Solomani Lt PA and heavy Cruisers, Imperial proper Lt Meson Cruisers.Hating unhittable ships i tend to keep agility low enough that it resembles a fight if using high guard, specifically as regards fighters being able to hit capital ships, the TLs i use help in this. So much more anti-fighter batteries of say FF6 missiles, 6xtrp msl. Don't really use super computer fighters, more there's a large amount of say model/3, and those the top of the line fighters. things might change what with mongoose travellers wings or whatver, but the space combat seems half there and broken tbh, lots of stuff in it i like though, like barrage fire of sand as anti fighter/light attack.

Ginam Sera? i forget the name my ~2kt HG vilani destroyer/troop transport, TL9/11, multi jimp capable is posted here somewhere.

In a lot of this i was influenced by T4 Melieu 0, and pocket empires, where the imperium formed by co-opting existing pocket empires making them the local nobility. So a sector fleet is in reality a pocket empire with its own TL industry base and design philosophy, or even some subsector fleets being minor pocket empires. Much of the strength of the imperial fleet is their (marginally) higher TL base and hence jump capability, but moreso the skein of resupply points and bases/depots to enable (and control) fleet movement and resupply. The problems arise when fleets whether internal or external go avoyaging <s>
 
If properly managed they would regularly transfer between sectors and subsectors. It keeps them from feeling to attached to a particular area and keeps the Duke from being to eager to see them as his property. As a bonus having to go to the work of redeploying is a guard against stagnation and deterioration in quality. And it is not all to the bad that rival powers should actually have to work to know where His Imperial Majesties forces are. After all we don't want poor young Kadet Thorstein of the Confederation Patrol to be fired from his job as office gofer due to budget cuts, do we?
 
Number of Squadrons

IMTU, I initially based fleet composition from FFW. Recent conversations have caused me to revisit that theory.

Looking through the economic process in T4, I identified the formula(s) which determine the number of squadrons a system can support. Starting with the Maximum # of Starship Squadrons in Imperial Squadrons (pg 28), I changed the SDB column to Population + Starport mod where A +3, B +2, D +4, N +2, S +1.

Running this formula against all of the Imperial worlds in the Spinward Marches sector, I come up with 189 squadrons. Using the idea that these represent the squadrons of the Colonial Fleet, there is 189 squadrons assigned to the Fleets within the Spinward Marches.

I am considering what distribution of squadron types to use with these numbers. Currently I am looking at 20% BR, 60% CR, 10% AR, and 10% TR. At the moment, I have not considered SR - while they might be part of the Navy during War, they are controlled and organized by the IISS during peacetime.

I would like to hear your comments, criticisms, and suggestions.
 
IMTU the Imperium is heavily militarized AND rational.

In that respect, it isn't much like the OTU.

Numbers-wise, I ran with FSOSI & Grand Fleet:
Numbered Sector Fleet:
At Sector Depot:
2 BatRons (6 - 8 @500K+ ea TL 15)
2 Reserve BatRons (6 - 8 @500K+ ea TL 14)
4 1st Line BatRons ( 3 - 4 @300K TL 15)
4 1st Line Reserve BatRons ( 3 - 4 @300K TL 14)
6 2nd Line BatRons (3 - 4 @200K TL 15)
6 2nd Line Reserve BatRons (3 - 4 @200K TL 14)
4 Fleet Carrier Groups TL 15
4 Reserve Fleet Carrier Groups TL 14
2 Strike Carrier Groups TL 15
2 Strike Carrier Groups TL 14
8 TankRons TL 13
4 Reserve Heavy CruRons (100k TL 14)
8 Reserve Light CruRons (30K+ TL 14)

Operational Doctrine IMTU has the Reserve ships in Mothballs. Reactivation IAW "Starships in Mothballs" TD #07. All Reserve ships are manned by Reservists. Active Duty ships are manned at 50%. When mobilized or used for scheduled maneuvers (Every 90 days), the other 50% comes from Frozen Watch.

Per Subsector:
1 Heavy Cruiser (100K) per Subsector (Operationally, the subsector flagship during peacetime.)
2 Light Cruisers (30K) per Subsector - High Pop Worlds.
4 Light Cruisers (10K) per Subsector - High Pop Worlds.

From the player's perspective, they don't see much of the Imperium's mailed fist. Most ships they see range from 1,000 tons to 10K tons, on those occasions when they see them. They do see a lot of system defense ships though (400t to obsolete Battle Riders TL 13). Important worlds (TL Early Stellar, Pop 9+) have at least 1 type T Meson gun emplacement on the planet. Places like Mora or Regina have 4 type T, & 8 - 12 type N.

IMTU, planetary invasions are very, very expensive.
 
Ahhhh yes the "how many ships does the sector fleet have". If you follow various canon sources you get a rough figure of each subsector having: one to three batrons, two to six crurons and assorted auxiliaries. This is then backed up by a similar number of "colonial' (local navy) ships. Problem is that if you follow the military spending rules in either High Guard of Striker you find that even a single hi-pop world can support a fleet larger than the average Imperial sector.

I think this stems from the design system which has to keep starship costs at a level that is theoretically in reach of your average PC group. Downside is that when you apply those costs to a large military budget you end up with sector fleets with thousands of battleships. My solution has been to have normal civilian ships and mil std ships (which cost ten times as much). The mil std stuff has FAR superior performance (ForEx a mil std jump drive has an accuracy of +/- 5 mins). This keeps your Type A affordable for your ragtag adventurers and the Sector fleet within somewhat more manageable levels. And the mil std's advantages end up canceling out when facing other mil std ships (though for civilians, the party's over when the navy turns up).
 
Ahhhh yes the "how many ships does the sector fleet have". If you follow various canon sources you get a rough figure of each subsector having: one to three batrons, two to six crurons and assorted auxiliaries. This is then backed up by a similar number of "colonial' (local navy) ships. Problem is that if you follow the military spending rules in either High Guard of Striker you find that even a single hi-pop world can support a fleet larger than the average Imperial sector.
It isn't quite that bad. If you go by Striker, the Imperial military budget is equal to 43% of the combined military budgets of all its worlds (30% for the Imperium, 70% for the member worlds). However, part of each military budget is spent on the army, ranging from an average of 6% for vacuum worlds to an average of 40% on most worlds. Assuming that Imperial military spending is closer to that of a vacuum world (I usually calculate with 10% going to the Imperial army), the Imperial navy budget would be closer to 2/3rds of the combined navy budgets of the member worlds.

Then there's the question of how the budget is spent, on jump-capable ships or monitors/battleriders, but let's not open that can of worm here.

Basically, a high-population world might match or exceed an Imperial numbered (subsector) fleet but not come anywhere near matching a named (sector) fleet.

Mind you, "high-population world" covers anything from 1 billion to 99 billion, so there's a lot of variation.

I think this stems from the design system which has to keep starship costs at a level that is theoretically in reach of your average PC group. Downside is that when you apply those costs to a large military budget you end up with sector fleets with thousands of battleships. My solution has been to have normal civilian ships and mil std ships (which cost ten times as much).
Yes, I've been thinking along the same lines, although I'd be more inclined to make specifically military components (e.g. armor, spinal mounts, screens) more expensive.

One idea I really fancy is to change the costs of jump drives to <jump number squared> megacredits per dT. So a jump-1 drive would cost MCr1 per dT, jump-2 would cost MCr4 (the current price), jump-3 MCr9, etc. That would make military ships that need to be able to move fast cost a lot more. It would also serve to correct another setting vs. rules discrepancy, namely the huge importance mains are supposed to have; with the current design rules, jump-2 and jump-3 is actually cheaper for long-distance transportation than jump-1, which makes mains pretty much irrelevant.


Hans
 
I think this stems from the design system which has to keep starship costs at a level that is theoretically in reach of your average PC group. Downside is that when you apply those costs to a large military budget you end up with sector fleets with thousands of battleships.

The problem with the whole "thousands of battleships" argument is the fact that those people are only looking at ship construction costs. At best, that might be 10% of a naval budget.

I happen to be a bit of a subject matter expert on military budgeting, at least as far as the US Army is concerned, so I do have some points of reference.

There is more to a military budget than weapon system construction costs.

For example:
How many bases are in the Spinward Marches? How much does it cost to run a base for 1 year. Just O&M (operations & maintenance)? How much does it cost to run the PX, Commissary, Barbershops, etc? How much infrastructure is outsourced to civilians (always more than paying a military person).

Now do a Depot. (Not just a base, but an entire system)

MilPay & Retired Pay - There is a third of your budget right there.

Housing for Service Members & families - (that isn't part of operational costs - it is a separate budget aggregate group (aka BAG) of money. Housing isn't cheap.

Notice how we still haven't talked about the O&M costs for fleets & squadrons.

Haven't mentioned R&D. - Done on a shoestring? I think not.

Health care - Purple Hearts = hospital care.

Then there is the training base. That is another third, easily.

Hell, I could make the argument (and show comparisons) that the numbers in TCS are too low.

But it is easier just to go with Canon, say 1,000 ships per sector & sink the rest of the money into infrastructure.
 
The problem with the whole "thousands of battleships" argument is the fact that those people are only looking at ship construction costs. At best, that might be 10% of a naval budget.
That's the figure I use (i.e. TCS maintenance figure). I have to make various assumptions (such as BatRons consisting of battleship-sized ships rather than 20,000T battleriders), so the results are equivocal, but I end up having to spend half the Imperium's navy budget on things other than the ships (and their escorts) alone. Chris suggested that this other half is spent on bases and logistics, a view that I've gradually come around to lately.

Here's a rule of thumb I've worked out. Just a suggestion.

When determining the number of ships in a fleet based on its annual budget, larger territories require a greater proportion of the funds spent on infrastructure and logistics. Fleet sizes may thus be based on:

Pocket empires ( up to several systems (TCS)): 10 times
Subsector-sized: 9 times
Several subsectors: 8 times
Sector-sized: 7 times
Several sectors (~domain): 6 times
Seveal domains : 5 times

Note: These are not hard and fast figures. Culture and circumstances may cause differences. (E.g. two equally matched neighboring rivals locked in perpetual state of tension interspersed with frequent wars may spend their budgets more efficiently -- or have to spend more of the budget on repairs and replacements.​


Hans
 
So using the FSOSI & Grand Fleet method, you get a smaller amount of Squadrons per sector than compared to TCS or Pocket Empires/Imperial Squadrons.

I'm wondering about just assigning squadrons to Navel bases. 18x Type A, 2x Type B, 24x Type N will give me a lower number of squadrons. Next will be determining a ratio (BR, CR, AR, TR) for the sector - Any suggestions?
 
So using the FSOSI & Grand Fleet method, you get a smaller amount of Squadrons per sector than compared to TCS or Pocket Empires/Imperial Squadrons.
Yes, but you also get a much lower percentage of GPP (Gross Planetary Product ;)) spent on the military. That's not a problem if the interstellar state in question is peaceful and under no threat. But for a state like the Imperium, hemmed in by three hostile (Solomani, Zhodani, K'Kree) and three unfriendly powers (Aslan, Vargr, Julians), at least two of which (Sollies and Zhos) are of comparable size and effectiveness (TL)[*] it does matter. An expenditure of 3% is a little low to be plausible, but not completely so, and it IS canon. But anything lower than that is just not plausible to me.

[*] Note that I said comparable, not the same -- the Sollies and the Zhos are a tech level behind, but it does the Imperium little good to have a 3/2 tech advantage if it only spends 1% of GPP while the Sollies and the Zhos spend 6 or 8%. And we know from real life (Cold War)that a society can manage a peacetime spending of that much on its military if it is motivated. I've always thoght that at least the Sollies would be Real Motivated.​

And from a practical standpoint, it really doesn't matter to an adventure whether the navy ship that doesn't show up is a 50,000T cruiser or a 500,000T battleship. In either case you have to come up with a reason that it doesn't show up, because a 50,000T military vessel is just as much of an adventure killjoy as a 500,000T one.


Hans
 
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