Fleet Production

[robject]

Thank you, Hans, on time as usual. I also found the same numbers this morning when browsing some very old Javascript I wrote in the previous century:

http://home.comcast.net/~downport/scripts/FleetMaker2.html

I didn't include the fighters in the mix, but the total is practically the same. The stats for other BatRons are also included in the script.

The script also claims (I don't know on what basis my own claim was made) that the Spinward Marches fleet costs MCr 378,507,612. Nearly four hundred trillion credits!

As far as budgets go, we'll have to see how the fleet values actually work out, then examine our options. I suspect that a business arrangement with the 5 or 6 most important worlds will safely secure the sector and its budget.

 

[robject]

Actually, the 154th isn't necessarily a bad option. For example, we could try mapping the cost of its firepower to its FFW attack rating. Similarly, we could try mapping armor, screens, and laser batteries to its defense rating. I'm not sure how to reckon bombardment factors, but this isn't going to be precise at any rate.

You're right, a Nolikian can't face up to a dreadnought. I'm assuming a Nolikian has close to the firepower of a 40kt jump-4 cruiser.

Unless there are super-whoppingly bad-boy counters I haven't seen, it looks like the deployments in FFW are task forces or something -- dreadnoughts are distributed among smaller ships to augment their forces, rather than being concentrated in a BatRon. With the exception of the Nolikians, of course.

And I see what you mean about the Noli's being a CruRon.

Anyway, here's the 411:

6-G. Power plant-24. Model 9/fib computer.

Offense: Factor-N spinal mount, two 100t PA bays, one 50t fusion bay, and twelve 50t missile bays.

- does anyone have HG handy?

Defense: One 100-ton repulsor bay. Sixteen triple sandcaster turrets organized into 8 batteries. Meson screen (factor-9). Nuclear damper (factor-9).
Armored hull (factor-11).

HG question: why does this ship have factor-11 armor, but only factor-9 screens/dampers?

 

[mike wightman]

Hans asked:

Then there's the question of the relative combat power. Are seven 20,000 T battleriders really a match for eight 200,000 T battleships? I sincerely hope not, because if they are, there'd be no sane reason for building battleships.

If you accept High Guard and MT ship combat systems to be accurate in their modelling of space warfare in the OTU, the answer is yes.
Those seven battleriders are capable of killing up to seven Plankwells, Kokirraks, or Tigresses, although half that number would be more probable.
They would probably be all destroyed in return.

 

[mike wightman]

rob asked:

HG question: why does this ship have factor-11 armor, but only factor-9 screens/dampers?

Because 9 is the highest rating for TL15 screens in High Guard, MegaTraveller, and T20

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
rob asked:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />HG question: why does this ship have factor-11 armor, but only factor-9 screens/dampers?

Because 9 is the highest rating for TL15 screens in High Guard, MegaTraveller, and T20 </font>[/QUOTE]Stay out of T20 for large ship combat discussions tied to other versions. The T20 rules really change how things work in Large Ship Combat.

 

[shield]

Actually the 154th is seriously broken - check the fuel tankage on the tender. the tender is rated at J4 but only carries fuel for J2. You have to drop 2 or 3 riders to give you jump 4. oops

Seriously there is a website dedicated to putting HG ships against the FFW counters. I will look for the http and get back.

Cheers
Richard

 

[shield]

Here is that link

http://www.jtas.org/travelleratlas

Cheers
Richard

 

[robject]

Here's a fresher link. And you're right on both counts: they've set ships to counters, and the Lurenti doesn't have enough fuel at all. Of course, the listed price there for the Nolikian is wrong.

http://www.jtas.net/travelleratlas/FifthFrontierWar/War.html

The Lurenti would need 120,000 tons of fuel, which means it's 45,000 tons short. Wonder where it went? Perhaps there's enough space left for the additional fuel tankage... Nolikians, Sloans, fighters... hmmm.

And there's a lot of ships there, somewhat higher than the theoretical average 63 per subsector (890 ships CL and better). Of course, this is a militarized frontier...

 

[shield]

Remember that the initial imperial fleet forces are quite limited, a couple of batrons, about 6 cruiser squadrons, colonials, scouts, and that troop transport squadron with its imperial army unit at Efate (damn ine Givar).

Extra colonials only show up about turn 6, imperial forces only appear at about turn 10 (which is stuff drom Deneb and then from the strategic reserves at Corridor), so thats a reasonable number of ships.

Supplement 5 AHL cruisers puts 5 AHLs in the marches. Supplement 9 notes that there are 4 squadrons of Korrikaks and 1 squadron of Tigresses in the Marches, all the plankwells are at Corridor.

Cheers
Richard

 

[Theophilus]

People keep sazying that the Lurenti/Nolikian combination is "wrong" because it doesn't have enough fuel.

That's not exactly true. If you use the fuel from the riders, and reduce the base Lurenti hull to a displacement of 160,000 tons (with 140,000 tons of riders) the smaller percenatge based components will fit. It's tight, but it works.

Here's what I mean....
Jump drive 5% of 300k. 15,000
Mn-2 5% of 160K 8,000
Pn-5 5% of 160K 8,000
Bridge 2% of 160K 3,200
Jump fuel 160K (64,000)
Jump fuel 300K 120,000 (-35000 on riders possible optional fuel source)

Total displacement 154,200
As you can see, with enough fuel to jump, and using a 160,000 ton hull, you can fit most of the % based components into a Lurenti hull. I've got to run, play with the numbers and see it you can make it work!!!

 

[Theophilus]

Oh, and the fact that a batron of Riders costs less the a batron of Battleships is the whole point. I can build more spinal armed hulls for less money.

Plus look at the text description:
723 three J-3 carries with three Auliaau class riders.

904 One J-4 carrier with six Quiquilat class riders

1093 One J-4 Lurenti carrier with seven Nolokian Riders

Supp 8 (pg16) One 300,000 ton World class Carrier with Five Battleriders

As technology has progressed smaller riders on smaller hulls have become standard.

CT battleships also followed this patern:
Tigress 500K (text describes older larger ships)
Kokirraks 200K Obsolete
Plankwell 200K
Sylea 100k (Supp 8)
Uzshu 100K (TL14)
Inkaluur 100K (TL14)

It would seem that as the rider concept gained acceptance, smaller battleship designs appeared, making use of the same technological advances that made Riders such power ships.

 

[robject]

Reducing the Lurenti's size may help, but using the Riders' fuel is sort of counter-productive. Some number-playing does seem to be in order, though.

 

[Admiral Morgan]

Riders do have a fatal flaw. If they can be statigicly or tacticly out manuvered.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Theophilus:
People keep sazying that the Lurenti/Nolikian combination is "wrong" because it doesn't have enough fuel.

That's not exactly true. If you use the fuel from the riders, and reduce the base Lurenti hull to a displacement of 160,000 tons (with 140,000 tons of riders) the smaller percenatge based components will fit. It's tight, but it works.

Here's what I mean....
Jump drive 5% of 300k. 15,000
Mn-2 5% of 160K 8,000
Pn-5 5% of 160K 8,000
Bridge 2% of 160K 3,200
Jump fuel 160K (64,000)
Jump fuel 300K 120,000 (-35000 on riders possible optional fuel source)

Total displacement 154,200
As you can see, with enough fuel to jump, and using a 160,000 ton hull, you can fit most of the % based components into a Lurenti hull. I've got to run, play with the numbers and see it you can make it work!!!

The power plant must be rated the same as the jump drive as a minimum, i.e.it must be 4% of 300,000 since your jump drive is rated as a jump 4 for a 300,000t ship.
That's 12,000t for power plant, plus 12,000t for power plant fuel.
Rating the maneuver drive for unloaded tonnage makes sense though.
You can definitely build a better rider than the Nolikian in only 15,000t.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Admiral Morgan:
Riders do have a fatal flaw. If they can be statigicly or tacticly out manuvered.

Tactically (insystem) outmaneuvered by cutting them off from their tender, yes. Although at TL15 it becomes possible to fit a jump 1 drive to your riders for just such an emergency
Strategically (i.e. jump movement) though the tender/rider combo is no easier to outmaneuver than battleships and cruisers.

 

[shield]

Just looked in JTAS No 9, Imperial Cruiser Division 119 consists of two azhanti HL class cruisers. Is this cru div in FFW. If so what are its factors?

Cheers
Richard

 

[mike wightman]

There is no cruiser division 119 counter in FFW.

There is a CruRon 114 counter in Invasion Earth with the stats:

CR PS 1-1-3,

the same as the FFW counter CruRon 505:

CR J5 PS 1-1-3.

Also in IE ar Cru Rons 260 and 261:

CR PS 3-2-4,

the same combat stats as the FFW CR502 counter:

CR J5 PS 3-2-4.

 

[mike wightman]

I suppose CruDiv119 could be stationed in part of the Spinward Marches not detailed in FFW.

 

[The Oz]

Concerning the meaning/value of the numbers on a FFW counter:

I seem to recall seeing a statement somewhere in the old days that said the Attack value was the number of spinal mounts with smaller spinal mounts being discounted by some fraction, and the Defense value was the number of major combat hulls in that counter. I don't remember seeing any rationale for the Bombardment value. Let's see how this works with the 154th BatRon.

154th BatRon (FFW) 6-2-8

Attack of 6 = six spinal mounts. There are seven Nolikians in the 154th, so this is close but not exact. However, the Nolikian carries the factor-R meson gun, so perhaps this weapon is slightly discounted or there's some other element at work.

Defense of 8 = eight major hulls, including the Lurenti tender. This also works, although if I were assigning the values I would not count the tender since it is not really a combat vessel and would not normally engage in combat.

If we assume that Sigg is right and the FFW counter for the 505th CruRon is a pair of AHL cruisers (plus escorts) then that breaks down this way:

505th CruRon (FFW): 1-1-3

Attack value 1 = one spinal mount. With two factor-N meson guns (assuming these AHLs are the refitted frontier cruiser version) this shows that such spinal mounts only count as half an Attack factor each.

Defense factor 3 = three major combat hulls. This doesn't work as there are only two such hulls.

Perhaps an alternative for the Defense value is that it counts one factor for every major hull (not counting battle tenders or fighter carriers) and then adds one for all the escorts.

I would think that the Bombardment value would be based on the number of missile bays, which can be roughly said to be proportional to the total tonnage of combat ships, with perhaps a bonus for the number of ships in the unit (this might explain why ScoutRons have the highest Bombardment values; all those 100ton Type-S with triple missile racks in their turrets).

Similar modifications might account for the defense values of AssaultRons, TankRons, and ScoutRons.

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I suppose CruDiv119 could be stationed in part of the Spinward Marches not detailed in FFW.

A Division is part of a Squadron, so it may be in the of the existant CruRon counters.