Fleet Standard Close Escort?

[pendragonman]

Not only is that not true (A missile-armed ship would be able to fire at a ship in the sensor shadow of a planet using relayed sensor data), it's also a false premise. A freighter that jumps into the system at the jump limit isn't going to enter any sensor shadow until it reaches the planet itself. Hopefully you don't propose that a pirate would attempt to intercept a ship in orbit around the planet? Well within the 10 diameter limit, which means that if the ship tries to jump, odds are that it will remove itself from the population of active pirate ships without any help from anyone.

If the merchie jumps in at the 100 d limit on the opposite side of the planet, he darn well is in the picket's sensor shadow of the planet. Yes, planetary repeaters could move that data to the ship, but now you are subjecting the system to larger error computations.

Yes, a missile sent on a ballistic trajectory to a target in the sensor shadow could be fired using the relayed data. This would also make it much simpler to intercept as I said in my original arguments. That is a huge flight time for the missile.

While I wouldn't recommend jumping from 5 diameters (the boom factor is huge), I certainly would try from 10 or 11, especially if I have a good black gang.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Certainly one could do that. However, this contradicts the information in HG, which specifically states that the subsector navies are separate organizations. At the meta-level it's obvious that the MT authors changed the subsector navies into the reserve fleets (In the character generation rules they did a search-and-replace of the two). But until TPTB specifically states that the information in HG is now invalid, the available evidence shows that there are both reserve fleets (part of the IN) and duchy (subsector) navies (not part of the IN).

Well, for me "latest published canon" always is right/overwrites older material. So the change in data presented in MegaTraveller auto-invalidates HighGuard

Can you provide a reference for that?

The fact that my father and uncle initially trained as shipbuilders (Mechanic and Electrician respectively) and did build/maintain a sizeabel number of channel barges and tugs on the Middleland/Dortmund Ems channel? Ships that they have described to me (and shown me to be during visits) virtual clones of one another. OSA's 1250BRT cargo ships (back then run by Preussag AG, the families employer(1)) could be kept apart by the hull number and the captains car, not by any specialities.

I could point out that post-1100 (which is the date the Deyo transponders are said to've been installed in every Imperial ship) is just exactly the time when CT material talks of pirates, but I don't believe in the unforgeable transponder. There are several examples of forged transponders in CT material.

I can see no reason why pirats don't exist in the later/earlier times like Milieu 0 or SolRim War. CT material (if it specifies a timeframe at all) heavily concentrates on the 1100 timeline while at the same time it makes no reference to the Deyo transponders. IIRC the chips are either late MegaTraveller or early TNE and first appeared in a Challenge article.

Anyway, even the smallest Traveller ship takes many months to build. They are produced from identical plans, sure, but not mass-produced. There are about 1000 Scout/Couriers in the Spinward Marches. Beowulfs and Empress Maravas would number in no more than the hundreds. What sort of ship is your pirate vessel? Where does it go and what does it do when it's not out capturing ships?

Where do you get that low ship number from?

The cost of nuclear tipped missiles is one reason why not. The cost of illegal nuclear tipped missiles and the difficulty of finding a supplier is another.

Neither have pirates. Most escorts, OTOH, have sandcasters.

Hans

Again a thing canon does not say much about outside of the price.


(1) The also ran the local mine where my uncle and father later worked (better money)

 

[aramis]

Actually, the Deyo chips make their first appearance in a CT adventure...

their use in transponders is an early (pre-rulebook) TNE element as far as I can tell.... they are in Survival Margin.

They are the needed rerequisite plot device for Virus.

I treat the change between CT and MT as reflecting the changes ca 1103-1115.

 

[rancke]

Fully equipped repair facilities can be found hidden in asteroid belts or outer planets of systems or other similarly desolate (or not so desolate) places. Think Port o Prince or any of the Barbary ports as examples of refitting areas.

Sure, there's absolutely no problem hiding a fully equipped repair facility somewhere that the authorities won't be able to find it. All you need is the money to pay for it and the security apparatus to keep it a secret. Who pays for it? Such a repair facility costs money (a LOT of money) to build and to run. This in turn increases the cost of repairs for the pirate, who has to pay for it out of his loot.

As for keeping the location a secret, well, that present problems too, right?

As to disguising a ship, surely you have heard of pop turrets, false skins and the like. Remember, a really thorough forensic exam would mean the Navy personnel have control of the ship, then the jig is normally up already anyway.

Yes, but I've yet to hear of a pop turret that won't be found by a physical examination. And that just requires a routine customs inspection. The moment you put in stuff like that, you prevent the pirate from ever approaching a starport on any legitimate business. This solves some problems, but it introduces other problems.


Hans

 

[rancke]

If the merchie jumps in at the 100 d limit on the opposite side of the planet, he darn well is in the picket's sensor shadow of the planet.

If he winds up at the exact opposite of the picket, yes. If he's just one or two degrees off, the planet won't shadow him. But I agree that the range would be too long. if there is any question of ships arriving from the opposite side, the obvious solution is to post another picket on that side.


Hans

 

[pendragonman]

If he winds up at the exact opposite of the picket, yes. If he's just one or two degrees off, the planet won't shadow him. But I agree that the range would be too long. if there is any question of ships arriving from the opposite side, the obvious solution is to post another picket on that side.


Hans

While I agree that the sensor shadow is narrow, my calculations as to the width is a bit more than the diameter of the planet over all. Put the picket at the 100 d limit, run the tangent lines to create a cone around the planet, and recalling that at the point where the tangent lines touch the planet, the radius of that circle is less than the radius of the planet (at the distances we are talking about, not by much though), it is easily seen that the width of the shadow is a bit wider than the diameter of the planet. In actuality, when we are talking about ships less than 30 meters in length (roughly) that is a very wide shadow indeed.

Oh, and the original argument began with the premise that one picket, period, could do the job. All I was trying to show was that it would take more than that.

 

[aramis]

Hans has an unfortunate tendency to discount the ease of moving things in microgravity. Most of the tools needed are man portable in such an environment, except perhaps metals fabrication....

Sure, it takes a lot of time to move things that way... so long as you're just needing to buy LS, time is affordable. (Corollary: if you can't afford to wait, you can't afford to be a pirate.)

Oh, and an 8Td machine shop isn't that expensive and is specifically able to fabricate metal parts for permanent repairs.

 

[Whipsnade]

Put the picket at the 100 d limit...

Pendragonman,

More special circumstances? Sheesh...

Putting the picket at the 100D limit is the about the worst possible deployment option as it both negates the picket's weapons range and limits sensor ability.

If the picket is deployed closer to the planet it can:

A) Clear the sensor shadow much more rapidly, and

2) Direct weapon fire to all points of the 100D limit sphere.

... run the tangent lines to create a cone around the planet, and recalling that at the point where the tangent lines touch the planet, the radius of that circle is less than the radius of the planet (at the distances we are talking about, not by much though), it is easily seen that the width of the shadow is a bit wider than the diameter of the planet.

And at such a distance, the picket's ability to "sweep" it's "blind spot" is severely limited thus providing Yet Another Special Circumstance. While I can believe that the picket could be caught out of position like this for various reasons, I cannot believe that IN officers wouldn't be trained to avoid such a circumstance whenever possible.

In actuality, when we are talking about ships less than 30 meters in length (roughly) that is a very wide shadow indeed.

A ship in planetary orbit can "sweep" it's "blind spot" as quickly as it orbits and even more rapidly once it receives that mayday or "an unknown is developing an intercept vector towards me" message. Given the weapon ranges in LBB:2 - your preferred rules set - allow a ship in orbit over a size "A" world to fire beyond the 100D limit, purposely losing that advantage by sitting on the 100D limit instead of inside the limit is poor tactics.

Oh, and the original argument began with the premise that one picket, period, could do the job. All I was trying to show was that it would take more than that.

No. The original argument was that pickets didn't matter unless they were close to the merchants they protect. Then the argument became pickets wouldn't be available and now it's "IN captains are too stupid to employ their vessels effectively."

YM obviously Vs.


Have fun,
Bill

P.S. Just to save bandwidth, I'll agree with you now that more than one picket would be needed off a gas giant as that will be your next quibble.

 

[pendragonman]

Pendragonman,

More special circumstances? Sheesh...

Putting the picket at the 100D limit is the about the worst possible deployment option as it both negates the picket's weapons range and limits sensor ability.

If the picket is deployed closer to the planet it can:

A) Clear the sensor shadow much more rapidly, and

2) Direct weapon fire to all points of the 100D limit sphere.



And at such a distance, the picket's ability to "sweep" it's "blind spot" is severely limited thus providing Yet Another Special Circumstance. While I can believe that the picket could be caught out of position like this for various reasons, I cannot believe that IN officers wouldn't be trained to avoid such a circumstance whenever possible.



A ship in planetary orbit can "sweep" it's "blind spot" as quickly as it orbits and even more rapidly once it receives that mayday or "an unknown is developing an intercept vector towards me" message. Given the weapon ranges in LBB:2 - your preferred rules set - allow a ship in orbit over a size "A" world to fire beyond the 100D limit, purposely losing that advantage by sitting on the 100D limit instead of inside the limit is poor tactics.



No. The original argument was that pickets didn't matter unless they were close to the merchants they protect. Then the argument became pickets wouldn't be available and now it's "IN captains are too stupid to employ their vessels effectively."

YM obviously Vs.


Have fun,
Bill

P.S. Just to save bandwidth, I'll agree with you now that more than one picket would be needed off a gas giant as that will be your next quibble.

Bill
As to your assertions that I am the one delineating special circumstances, I refer you to Hans' posts starting on page 5 of this thread. Just about every one of your aspersions come from me responding to someone else's special case. Please, in the future, check your facts before getting high handed with me. I don't care for it.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Actually, the Deyo chips make their first appearance in a CT adventure...

their use in transponders is an early (pre-rulebook) TNE element as far as I can tell.... they are in Survival Margin.

They are the needed rerequisite plot device for Virus.

I treat the change between CT and MT as reflecting the changes ca 1103-1115.

Agreed.

The chips in their home environment near Sollie space appear in Signal GK, a CT-Adventure. They are not used as transponder chips until either Survival Margin or a Challenge Article around the same time (post Issue 60)

 

[rancke]

Oh, and the original argument began with the premise that one picket, period, could do the job. All I was trying to show was that it would take more than that.

I have to concede that this is correct, unless the world only gets traffic from one side. If it gets traffic from both sides (which most of them will), you need two pickets


Hans

 

[rancke]

Putting the picket at the 100D limit is the about the worst possible deployment option as it both negates the picket's weapons range and limits sensor ability.

That was my notion. I've always operated under the misapprehension that weapons ranges weren't enough to reach the jump limit from orbit. If, as you say, weapons can reach that far, so much the worse for our poor pirate.

If the picket is deployed closer to the planet it can:

A) Clear the sensor shadow much more rapidly, and

2) Direct weapon fire to all points of the 100D limit sphere.

Although in such a case, Pendragonman's argument about sensor shadows (though I still think the real problem would be the world blocking direct energy weapon fire -- relaying sensor data just isn't a real problem if you use electronics) makes a lot more sense. To be sure of being able to fire at all points of the jump limit you'll need two ships in orbit opposite each other. Or a ship with a meson weapon and a sensor satellite opposite.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Well, for me "latest published canon" always is right/overwrites older material. So the change in data presented in MegaTraveller auto-invalidates High Guard.

To me, changes that make sense invalidates older material that didn't make sense. Otherwise, I try to reconcile seemingly contradictory statements if at all possible. If I can't, I go with the version that makes the most sense. Given how subsectors (duchies) are described, it makes sense to me that they'd have their own forces.

Ships that they have described to me (and shown me to be during visits) virtual clones of one another. OSA's 1250BRT cargo ships (back then run by Preussag AG, the families employer(1)) could be kept apart by the hull number and the captains car, not by any specialties.

I'm afraid that I've been unclear. I'm not saying that it would be possible to distinguish one ship from another of the same class just by looking at it (Though I do believe that a thorough forensic examination of a ship would be able to identify it positively). I'm saying that ships are turned out in quantities of a couple per year, not thousands per day the way cars are. So if you know that the offender was a Beowulf that turned up in System A on 030-1111, you can eliminate all but a few Beowulfs as suspects simply by checking the records of their movements. When you then notice that Beowulf Class Free Trader Driven Snow departed from neighboring System B on 023-1111 and didn't show up at any of the neighboring worlds 6 to 8 days later, you will probably want to track it down and ask the captain a few questions.

Where do you get that low ship number from?

The figure for the Scout/Couriers is from Fighting Ships. The guesstimate about Beowulfs and Maravas assumes that Scout/Couriers are more numerous than them. Also, there's just not much call for 200 T ships, because they're not competitive on very many routes. Any route that can keep five or six Beowulfs in business won't keep them in business, because a 1000 T ship can do the same job cheaper. So who builds all those ships in the first place? And if no one builds them, they won't be there for freetraders to buy when they become obsolete.


Hans

 

[pendragonman]

That was my notion. I've always operated under the misapprehension that weapons ranges weren't enough to reach the jump limit from orbit. If, as you say, weapons can reach that far, so much the worse for our poor pirate.

Although in such a case, Pendragonman's argument about sensor shadows (though I still think the real problem would be the world blocking direct energy weapon fire -- relaying sensor data just isn't a real problem if you use electronics) makes a lot more sense. To be sure of being able to fire at all points of the jump limit you'll need two ships in orbit opposite each other. Or a ship with a meson weapon and a sensor satellite opposite.


Hans

In CT, weapons have outrageous ranges. I believe in most other versions this little issue was fixed (I know for certain it was fixed in TNE)(come to think of it, this updating kind of nullifies much of the flack we were getting since you can't both have the updated material in one area of your argument then decide it isn't there in another), so you were not that far off.

As to picket orbital configurations, I prefer more of a tetrahedron around the planet, with two of the four in more of a low orbital guard position and two in a more traditional high guard position.

 

[Whipsnade]

Although in such a case, Pendragonman's argument about sensor shadows (though I still think the real problem would be the world blocking direct energy weapon fire -- relaying sensor data just isn't a real problem if you use electronics) makes a lot more sense.

Hans,

No it doesn't.

Assuming the weapon ranges in LBB:2; Pendragonman's preferred ship combat system, a ship in orbit can clear a planet's sensor shadow in one turn (1000 seconds) and then shoot at the pirate.

One turn isn't going to make any real difference as it takes a minimum of two turns to match vectors.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[pendragonman]

Hans,

No it doesn't.

Assuming the weapon ranges in LBB:2; Pendragonman's preferred ship combat system, a ship in orbit can clear a planet's sensor shadow in one turn (1000 seconds) and then shoot at the pirate.

One turn isn't going to make any real difference as it takes a minimum of two turns to match vectors.


Have fun,
Bill

B

Ahh but you forget, Mayday has an adjustment for High Guard usage. This adjustment makes weapons ranges much less than infinite (or semi infinite in classic LBB2) Thus, if using Mayday (and you are the one that brought it in), Weapons ranges are finite and your premise is short sighted.

Is it not possible for you to grasp that other people see things differently than you?

BTW, even with all the electronics in the universe, piracy still happens and sometimes works. There are currently 5 ships in pirates hands off of Somalia. This is happening even with the U.S. Navy patrolling the area in an effort to stop it.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/10/30/somalia.pirates/index.html

 

[rancke]

BTW, even with all the electronics in the universe, piracy still happens and sometimes works. There are currently 5 ships in pirates hands off of Somalia. This is happening even with the U.S. Navy patrolling the area in an effort to stop it.

Yes, we piracy skeptics know all about that. We just don't feel that present-day piracy is a good analogy for Traveller piracy.

Mind you, I am puzzled that the USN puts up with the Somalian pirates. I wonder how it would react if communication times back to the US media and taxpayers were weeks rather than seconds?


Hans

 

[aramis]

Probably a lot more harshly than it does now.

In the case of anti-piracy operations, close oversight is an impediment, not an aid.

 

[Vargas]

Mind you, I am puzzled that the USN puts up with the Somalian pirates.

As I understand it, the US Navy wasn't permitted to pursue the pirates into Somali territorial waters until recently, so the pirates had something of a safe haven.

 

[rancke]

As I understand it, the US Navy wasn't permitted to pursue the pirates into Somali territorial waters until recently, so the pirates had something of a safe haven.

Yes, that's what puzzles me. That the USN wasn't permitted to pursue the pirates into Somali territorial waters.

A point on which the Somali situation differs from the 3rd Imperium situation. The Imperium is quite willing to intervene. They replaced the entire government of Tarkine and sent a 60,000T ship to remonstrate with the people of Lewis.


Hans