Fleet Structures & funding

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Well GT is alternative canon.

GT is alternative canon for events and conditions after 1114 (or thereabouts), but I consider it straight canon for events and conditions prior to that and for events and conditions after that too if there's no good reason to think that the changes wrought by the change point would have had a different effect.

But even if Lanth were not a Duchy, why Regina and not Rhylanor? Rhylanor is definitely the economic powerhouse of the two.

I agree. I wouldn't myself have put Lanth under Regina (and, indeed, now that I check, GURPS:Nobles only says that the Duchy of Regina includes parts of Lanth. The problem there is that it doesn't say that Lunion and Rhylanor also includes parts of Lanth). Personally I would have split Lanth up between Regina, Lunion, and Rhylanor, and I suppose the evidence is sufficiently vague to allow for that interpretation. In which case Lanth isn't even a county. Which, come to think of it, is all right by me, seeing as its revenue isn't really enough to make it a decent marquisate even.

There are definitely major differences between GT and CT/MT/T20 in terms of basic concepts, economics being a serious one.

No more than the difference between any two role-playing games that deal with the same subject. CT/MT/TNE/T4 simplifies the "real" economics in one way, GT simplifies them another way. Neither are completely true.

That's not to say that GT doesn't have its share of errors. But no more than CT & Co. does. And when it comes to the economics I'll take GT's over CT and T20 any day. Much better.

Besides one would think Regina would already have its hands full with both Regina and Jewell,

And Vilis. Yes, I agree with you. Maybe Regina's part of Lanth is only a couple of worlds closest to Regina. Maybe just Extolay (Extolay was propably part of the Regina Cluster in 250 and may have 'stuck').

Well it is implied that part of the manufacturing process of the Kinunir class was constructed by General Shipyards' sattelite yards on EFATE and Pixie, though they lacked the facilities to produce ships of that size there. (So final assembly was carried out on Regina.) Could be why the Kinunir had no armor, after all at TLA it would be difficult to work with TLF armor.

And it could be that The Kinunir is such an early source that we should take everything it says with a grain of salt. You know what I think about the shipyard at Pixie, I trust?

According to Adventure 1, EFATE and Pixie have ancilliarly shipyards for General their capacity is limited to 600 tons each. Now that may be the General yards only and other companies might have other yards. (Blisten and LSP both having yards at GLISTEN for example.) I definitely don't see EFATE having a major naval shipyard.

I don't see any high-tech, high-population world not having naval shipyards (Barring an Imperial Edict forbidding it to build warships).

With it being home of the Ine Gvar terrorist movement and a quagmire for Imperial Army forces, putting a major naval shipyard that close to the border in that kind of unrest sounds like a really poor plan. (Not saying that it isn't done, it just seems less likely.)

What if the shipyards were built long before the present insurgency reared its ugly head? Efate presumably has been building at least its own ships ever since it reached a population rating of 6, possibly earlier.

Lacking a Depot system, I would think that major combatants would be built at Rhylanor, Trin, Mora and Glisten.

The IN no doubt prefers TL 15 dreadnoughts from Mora, Rhylanor, Trin, and Glisten to dreadnoughts from Efate and Regina (It may have to buy something at Regina and Efate if it wants its taxes from them, though), but the Duchy of Regina Navy would buy primarily (though not necessarily exclusively)from local yards.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Hal:
One thing that dismayed me when I looked at it - was a general list of Depot systems and their attendant Tech levels. I had always assumed that Depot systems were TL 15. Silly me!

I agree with you, Hal. The Depot systems should all be at maximum Imperial tech. The silliness lies in generating sectors randomly and then failing to 'vet' them by hand afterwards.


Hans

 

[TheEngineer]

Hmmm, looking at real world military depots those sometimes appear like archeological sites, too.
It might be clearly perfect to have TL15 depots everywhere, but perhaps that goal just wasnt achieved ?

Ok, but by definition depots really should be a place of most sophisticated tech available.....

 

[Admiral Morgan]

Depots are limited to one per sector according to the OTU per the discription of Depots under bases in CT book2.

 

[TheEngineer]

Does the UWP TL stat refer to the TL of a scout base, naval base or even a depot anyway ?

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by TheEngineer:
Does the UWP TL stat refer to the TL of a scout base, naval base or even a depot anyway ?

That is a good question. I've noted that the TL of a system refers to the Starport even if such doesn't make sense. The question then is why would a Depot System have a lower tech then the shipyards of the system - especially established Depot systems that have been there for over a couple of centuries?

 

[Hal]

One thing I've noted of interest regard taxation is that Domains do not generate tax revenue nor may a Domain Duke levy such. That sorta surprised me and didn't surprise me. If sectors are a governmental unit, then having a tax scheme for domain leaders would add yet another layer of taxation...

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
A century ago both worlds may been only TL C borderline D , there is also the possiblity that both have advanced to TL E by 1100, having been borderline D/E when the second survey was conducted.
And we know that the data from the second survey in 1065 isn't the most reliable - look how someone noticed they had got the TL of Regina wrong

By 1201 both worlds mentioned have hit TL15, this is with the help of the Regency Industrial Development Program.

That is fine, But if in 982 they were TLC borderline D and by 1100 they were TLD borderline E. That doesn't justify them building cutting edge TLE ships in 982. By 1065 or 1100 they still aren't capable of building the ships that have been suggested were built there in 982. That was my point.

I personally think LSP would have a major shipyard, specifically to build general ships and cutting edge military ships at Glisten. LSP being, aside from ship builders, a mining company at heart. (BTW the GT Glisten book does place a LSP ship building operation at Glisten as well as mining operations but that is ATU and may not have any OTU standing.)

 

[mike wightman]

We know that the Navy built battleships at Trin:

The battleship Kishkii was originally built at the Trin shipyards as ISS Golden Redemption in 1080.

TNE RS page 84.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />There are definitely major differences between GT and CT/MT/T20 in terms of basic concepts, economics being a serious one.

No more than the difference between any two role-playing games that deal with the same subject. CT/MT/TNE/T4 simplifies the "real" economics in one way, GT simplifies them another way. Neither are completely true.

That's not to say that GT doesn't have its share of errors. But no more than CT & Co. does. And when it comes to the economics I'll take GT's over CT and T20 any day. Much better.
</font>[/QUOTE]Actually the economic problems with CT, MT and T20 are pretty consistent.

I didn't qualify which was better I just stated it was different. As for before 1104, well the idea was that GT was supposed to diverge at that point. It doesn't make GT material before that point OTU, especially since some of it definitely leads to the post 1104 GTU. I am not saying it isn't good material, some of the stuff that I have read is quite good background material and can be extrapolated from earlier Canon but that doesn't make it canon. However IYTU it may be canon, that doesn't make it official OTU canon. Like I said, it isn't bad material, it just isn't OTU. And I will admit I do use some of their material IMTU.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Besides one would think Regina would already have its hands full with both Regina and Jewell,

And Vilis. Yes, I agree with you. Maybe Regina's part of Lanth is only a couple of worlds closest to Regina. Maybe just Extolay (Extolay was propably part of the Regina Cluster in 250 and may have 'stuck').
</font>[/QUOTE]That makes sense. I can live with Lanth being split up, it is described a a Rift Subsector.

Where was Vilis listed as part of Regina?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />According to Adventure 1, EFATE and Pixie have ancilliarly shipyards for General their capacity is limited to 600 tons each. Now that may be the General yards only and other companies might have other yards. (Blisten and LSP both having yards at GLISTEN for example.) I definitely don't see EFATE having a major naval shipyard.

I don't see any high-tech, high-population world not having naval shipyards (Barring an Imperial Edict forbidding it to build warships).</font>[/QUOTE]I didn't say they wouldn't have a Naval Shipyard. I said I don't see major Naval Shipyard. Lots of places in the Continental US had Naval Shipyards during WWII but none of them were at the capacity, size or activity of the Brooklyn Navy Yard and Norfolk Navy Yard. (Between those two, virtually all the carriers, battleships and most ships bigger than a Destroyer were built.)

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />With it being home of the Ine Gvar terrorist movement and a quagmire for Imperial Army forces, putting a major naval shipyard that close to the border in that kind of unrest sounds like a really poor plan. (Not saying that it isn't done, it just seems less likely.)

What if the shipyards were built long before the present insurgency reared its ugly head? Efate presumably has been building at least its own ships ever since it reached a population rating of 6, possibly earlier.</font>[/QUOTE]True. I admit I hadn't thought of a Major Naval Yard before the "Troubles" began. But it still seems to be a dangerous place to put major Naval Shipyard activity. Look at the Brooklyn Naval Yard. It is no longer a Naval Yard. It is now leased to SeaLand to build Tankers. As times change and requirements change Naval Construction will move. The biggest reason the Brooklyn Naval Yard lost its prominence is the Brooklyn Bridge. You can't fit a Modern Carrier under the bridge.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Lacking a Depot system, I would think that major combatants would be built at Rhylanor, Trin, Mora and Glisten.

The IN no doubt prefers TL 15 dreadnoughts from Mora, Rhylanor, Trin, and Glisten to dreadnoughts from Efate and Regina (It may have to buy something at Regina and Efate if it wants its taxes from them, though), but the Duchy of Regina Navy would buy primarily (though not necessarily exclusively)from local yards.

Hans </font>[/QUOTE]I agree. We will have some Naval construction at most Class A Starports. After all for ships there are reasons to build at lower than Max TL. (Ease of maintenance being a big one.) FOr non-combatants, Auxillaries, for example, building them at TLD makes sense. But for Front Line Combatants you always want the most bang for the buck. I still think that you won't build anything bigger than a Cruiser in the Marches, and Drednaughts would be built at Depots.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by alanb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Most Subsectors have tons of credits for capital ship purchase and maintenence. They don't need castoffs.

Except that the castoffs already exist, and are therefore cheaper than building new ships. Presumably they are adequately effective for their duties, too. </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe. The keyword in there was most. Why operate older vessels that may impose safety risks, will be more expensive maintenence-wise for their much greater age (limiting their deployment and operations abilities), and that won't match up with the latest in IN designs and usage?

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Most Subsectors have tons of credits for capital ship purchase and maintenence. They don't need castoffs.

That would depend greatly on the subsector. For example, Mora, Rhylanor, Trin and Glisten would have no problems coming up with a rather impressive, bleeding edge subsecctor fleet.
</font>[/QUOTE]The same goes for the Lunion subsector.

Originally posted by Bhoins: The Lanth Subsector on the other end of the spectrum only has one Class A Starport and that system is only TLB so hand me downs would be very welcome in Lanth.

Lanth's SN forces hardly need to be built in Lanth subsector. The SN will sport mostly jump-capable vessels, and they can get to Lanth from anywhere.

As for budgetary considerations, Lanth would, undoubtedly, receive assistanece from the sector level.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

RainofSteel,
I think there could easily be a case made for "hand-me-downs". You wouldn't have to simply fly them as-is. You would strip down and retrofit the original to your needs. You would get a lot of new stuff in an older hull, leaving anything that was too expensive to replace or in good shape to start with.

Several of our (US Navy) older ships are sailing the seven seas with some other navy's insignia and all our highest tech equipment gone.

 

[mike wightman]

There's a lot to be said for refitting TL12 ships to TL13, and TL14 ships to TL15.

Armour remains the same across those TLs, while weapons, screens, computers, and power plants all improve.

 

[BetterThanLife]

I found something last night while setting up for my campaign. TA7, and last I checked the TAs and T20 were Canon, clearly states that Reservists crew ships in the Reserve Fleet. (And the Subsector/Colonial Fleet are also part of the Reserve fleet.) So in TA 7 it says that the Reserve fleet comprises two parts Imperial Navy Reserve (with the older but not yet obsolete ships) and Colonial resources.

Just thought I would bring it up.

 

[mike wightman]

That's only canon for the Gateway era, and in the Gateway Domain at that... <runs and hides from flames>...

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
That's only canon for the Gateway era, and in the Gateway Domain at that... <runs and hides from flames>...

Hehehehehe! But running and hiding from flames doesn't mean the Meson Accellerator can't hit you there.

 

[mike wightman]

Rats, forgot to pack the meson screen... aarrgghhh.

Back to serious mode, I still think that the term "reservist" is what causes the confusion.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Rats, forgot to pack the meson screen... aarrgghhh.

Back to serious mode, I still think that the term "reservist" is what causes the confusion.

Actually the term Reserve caused the confusion. Reservist, which until now wasn't quoted in a canon source, unlike reserve, has a fairly universal and specific meaning. A part time service person that has another career.

But thinking about it. If you are pulling your older ships off the line and placing them in the reserves, if you are going to keep them in the potential combat zones then it makes more sense to crew them with reservists. Logistically, financially, etc. If you are going to maintain them with full time staffs but you don't want them on the broken edge of the bottle when the balloon goes up then you move them away from the frontlines, not just desiginate them reserves.

For example, in WWII the T-34 tank was a world beater. It can be claimed to be the first of the Modern Tanks. (It was so good the Germans, took the design, added a little armor, gave it a better gun and started producing it themselves. (The Panther.) However by the 1990s the T-34 wouldn't stand up to a modern tank or even most Infantry Combat Vehicles. (However many T34s were still in service in various places around the world as a Tank, virtually any tank is better than no tanks especially when your enemies have no tanks.

)

Now, you wouldn't find T-34s serving in the front lines or near the front lines of a "World Power." However if the Soviets had a few divisions of them hanging about, and they still did by the time of the fall, they could be used in the areas of the Ural Mountains. Away from the expected front lines, where by the time an enemy required commitment of these divisions, they had either suffered such losses that the Tank would be viable or the situation was so desperate that the Tanks would need to be committed.

Along similar lines if you put crewed these Reserve Ships, (Old and outdated as opposed to modern but produced for the Colonial Navies of places like Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor and Trin.)
you would want them away from the front lines where tehy might prove useful for other missions like chasing corsairs, enforcing Interdictions, but you would commit them to places where the enemy isn't likely to start. For example, in places like Gushemege, Dagudashaag, Core (Well perhaps not Core as someone might need to protect the Capital against an Admiral from the Marches.) Fornast, Massila, Zarushagar and Illelish (Come to think of it, Illelish would have been an ideal place to do that.

). This way you have a minimum, one sector buffer zone so that any ships that get there are either High Jump, so they won't be as combat capable, attrited, or second line of the enemy because your top of the line ships took their first line out. (And vice versa.) That is the definition of Reserves that fits with full time service people. Strategic Reserve. If the ships are good enough to stand toe to toe to the enemy then they aren't required to shift to the nominal reserves.

Now taking less than new ships, staffing them with part timers (reservists), and only fully crewing them in times of need and for training, extends the lives of the ships, (they aren't used as much), provides a local reserve of ships, and greatly reduces your logistic and manning requirements for these second line ships. Then if there is a war elsewhere, for example the Solomani Rim War, the Active component of the Ley Sector Fleet can be moved to the front while the reserve elements are activated and fill the normal peace time mission of the Active Duty Fleet. (Especially since Commerce Raiders are generally older less capable ships as well.) A Corsair, an ethically challanged Merchant, or a smuggler isn't going to care if the Cruiser ordering them to heave to and prepare to be boarded is a Brand new Top of the line experimental TL-17 Ship or a TL-12 Dinosaur. Against that kind of opposition the Second line ship is equally capable. (Well virtually, you might be able to run from the older ship.

)

That just seems to be a better logical choice for the "old but still useful ships," instead of using them as some kind of strategic reserve near the front. As a Strategic Reserve near the front, it matters greatly, especially if you are supposed to counter attack, if you have a top of the line TL16-17 experimental ship or a TL12 dinosaur.

 

[mike wightman]

These part time reservists would have to go and live on planets with Navy bases wouldn't they?

Would these reservists not fit better into planetary navies? Then they can hold down a day job and train every weekend, fortnight, or month, whatever is required.

I can't think there'd be too many employers happy with the idea of their workers disappearing off on jump maneuvers more than once a year though