Fleet Structures & funding

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
<snip>
All weaponary was removed by the recipient in compliance with demilitarization regulations and ordinances."
<snip>

Hmmm. Well, maybe. I recall reading the above, but it didn't instantly translate in my mind as banning bay weapons. It was more like, the IN doesn't sell vessels with their heavy armaments intact to private individuals or organizations.

Spinal mounts being banned for private vessels, I'd agree with that. Meson weapons, bay and spinal, too.

But missile bays?

Also, it doesn't fit in with the idea that the Megacorporations maintain their own militarized vessels (although undoubtedly few in number, as they'd be expensive to build/operate for a profit-oriented organization). No, I have no canon quote for that, but I read about it here and there.

I don't see this stating that the vessels cannot arm themselves with any weapon not banned by the RoW.

However, I can see very strong arguments for having the law read as you say.

Nevertheless, I think it would be possible to obtain per-vessel waivers from the Sector Duke (allowing the vessel to operate only in that Sector, of course), or Emperor (for Imperium-wide operations). I tack this condition on because there are a couple of bay-armed private (but noble-owned) ships running around IMTU.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by alanb:
The subsector navies can be, and are, taken into Imperial service in war time. Therefore, they are Imperial reservists.

A full-time professional force does not qualify for the title "reservist". The SuN does not serve part-time in the SN, it serves in of the SN only in times of war. This actually happens pretty rarely, even in the frontier-war prone Spinward Marches. Serving once every 10-100 years is not part-time, it's on a per-exception basis. Forces availabe on a mandatory but exception-only basis may be considered a "reserve" by the SN admirals who are about to take overall command, but they are not "reservist".

Originally posted by alanb:
They [...] are "mobilisation only" forces.

The SuN also isn't "mobilisation only", because they're active full-time in their own Subsector.

Originally posted by alanb:
The fact that they serve as a regular military force for the subsector governments when not called up is irrelevant.

It appears you have drawn the opposite conclusion.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Now I have always, IMTU, considered the Sector Duke as first among equals so they don't get any additional financial advantage for holding the position.

Well, IMTU there are no Viscounts, Marquis' get replaced with Margraves (who are over mainworlds while Barons are over non-mainworlds), Counts command subsectors, and Dukes command sectors. The barely mentioned county and viscounty levels of government, undefined anywhere, are ignored.

But in the OTU, a Sector Duke is rather substantially more than first among equals. Having "far-reaching authority over all Imperial activities and personnel within the demense" makes the Sector Duke a little more equal than than others. (That this statement dovetails nicely with the way I had set things up anyway does tend to make me sympathetic to it, of course).

 

[mike wightman]

As I mentioned earlier, the MT based organization structure just isn't "feudal" enough.

At the risk of getting wrong, the MT structure is too "western 20th century" in its approach.

Colonial/subsector forces owing fealty to the Imperium just sounds more right.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Hal:
What are the costs going to be for a world with 1,000 battalion's?

That makes me ask so many questions. But the first, is, are you talking about IM battalions, PA battalions, or Huscarles?

No noble, Duke or otherwise, is going to maintain 1000 battalions of Huscarles. Even the Emperor only maintains slightly over a dozen extremely heavily reinforced regiments (The Imperial Guard) as his personal Huscarles. (Or, at least, I think of the Imperial Guard that way . . . they're never actually named as Huscarles.)

The IM has Imperial-level funding, and so has lots of money. But even they are unlikely to deploy 1000 battlions on anything more than a handful of staging worlds.

So, if we look at PAs, and if they're Pop A and TL-12+, then funding 1000 battalion is going to be a drop in the bucket. They could probably field 1000 divisions and not make their pocket-book break into a sweat. (Though I can imagine a Member World putting more money in their PN than in their PA, by far.)

Originally posted by Hal:
But I digress - outfitting a unit takes money, maintaining it takes less money - this is a given. But at some point in time, the Duke's huscarles cost him a pretty penny. In a time of war, having that unit Imperialized means that it is entirely possible the Duke might have to rebuild his unit after suffering 40% casualties and say, 80% equipment losses.

As I mentioned earlier, even if a noble's Huscarles are "Imperialized", the Duke's own will likely be treated a little differently by the IN and IM commanders.

But, in any event, The Duke of a sector has a huge income. Rebuilding a nine-battalion divion would be pocket change.

Oh, and I would like to point out, that even in a time of war, it's unlikely that 100% of any nobles Huscarles will be subsumed in the IM. The Huscarles are kept around as the noble's guards and security, and stripping them all away at the time they are likely most needed? Maybe 50%, 60%, tops, would be "Imperialized". And the deployed portions would be rotated with the non-deployed portions.

Originally posted by Hal:
This will NOT be something he can do cheaply.

Fortunately, the Duke has lots of money.

In my taxation system, the Annual Personal Stipend (Sector Duke), for the Spinward Marches, is: Cr630,595,958,251. This does not count his personal financial income from the his investments and the investments of his ancestors going back hundreds of years. His budget for Sector Ops is Cr20.809 Trillion. He could probably justify using Sector Ops funds on paying for his Huscarles use in a time of war, as it is Imperial Activity, so to speak. But honestly, he wouldn't have to.

Originally posted by Hal:
Add to the mix that he has other responsibilities, and other drains on his resources, and you can gather quite quickly, that the monetary resources he has at his disposal must be IMMENSE!

They are, if I do say so myself.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Hal:
<snip>
I'll wager that the writer of that bit of canon didn't even once consider the costs and just thought "oh, he's Duke of Regina - he can afford it".

At least the writer got one bit right. The Duke of Regina can afford it.

Originally posted by Hal:
How many people here remember the game STARFIRE?

Remember it? I played it! I even played three turns of an Empires game, though it ground to a halt because of too much paper work (we did it circa 1991, and none of us owned computers; well, I had an Apple IIe, but that effectively didn't count).

Originally posted by Hal:
How many people here have ever played computer strategy games where resources are the limit to how large a fleet you can have or how large a military you can have?

One of my favorite types of computer game.

Originally posted by Hal:
Imagine how the Third Imperium might have been developed had it had access to a simple version of Pocket Empires?

In creating a spreadsheet on the Gross Domestic Product for sectors within the Spinward Marches, I hoped to have some idea of what is or is not possible. I would also like to see some game mechanism for simulating a functioning viable Spinward Marches economy so that someone can build a series of Fifth Frontier War style game that is honest and true to what is possible rather than being an artificial construct such as the boardgame FFW is. Don't believe me? Try building a BatRon of Imperial Ships based on ship types within the book FIGHTINS SHIPS OF THE IMPERIUM, and build similar ships using High Guard for the Zhodani. Then do a High Guard combat for two opposing batrons. Anyone willing to bet that the battle will end differently than the game mechanics within Fifth Frontier War gameboard version?

The trouble with wargame mechanics, regardless of what they are based on, is that they do not take into account all the human and fog-of-war aspects that affect real commanders in real battles. How did Xenophon march 10,000 men hundreds of miles through enemy territory against superior forces? How did Spartacus outmanuever the Roman legions? At Camerone, how did 65 or so disease-ridden French Foreign Legion troopers fight off 2000 Mexican soldiers? Superior command, tactics, reserve-use, exploiting terrain, weather, and fortifications, correct use of covert activity, spies, and scouting, etc. Logistics availability, training quality, equipment quality, morale quality. Which side ate last? Who did the last forced march (I wonder if consective rapid jumps is extra-hard on jump drives?)?

The Imperium and it's surrounding nations are the result of a visionary story, not some simulation output. (Although I wish it's star and world-generation had had superior simulation output.)

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Admiral Morgan:
Most Planatary Navy's will have Jump capable ships. Remember that there is no FTL communications so a planet will have some Jump capable ships to send word out that they where being attacked.

Having jump-capable couriers is not the same as having jump-capable warships.

No canon I know of actually forbids PNs the use of jump-capable warships, or even warships as large as they like. I just find it unlikely (personally) that the Imperium would let it's worlds build PN-level fleets of jump-capable warships of unlimited size. High-Tech and High-Pop worlds have so much money at their disposal that they could, locally, outbuild the SuN or SN itself. The IN/SN would not want to face such a rival, so regulating it away before it becomes a problem seems the best way of handling it.

Originally posted by Admiral Morgan:
The explinations I give for the change from CT to MT is that durring the fith frontier war are that a Subsector Duke with no Naval training personaly lead his subsector's fleet durring the war and mismanaged it badly, that another sent less ships than the requested number of vessles to the war zone, another is that sipohants & family of the subsector dukes where gived postions of authority with in subsector fleets that they shouldn't have had, IMOP the best explination is that each subsector Duke could orginize his subsector fleet in any way he chose and that many such orginizations didn't mesh well with how the imperial Navy was orginized so the Emporer imperilized the Subsector Fleets as the reserve so that both the imperial navy and reserve would both share a common orginization.

That's interesting. Which Subsector Duke did you assign to this role? What did he do that was so bad? And why weren't his Subsector Naval forces following the orders of Sector Admiral Santanocheev?

 

[Ranger]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
As I mentioned earlier, the MT based organization structure just isn't "feudal" enough.

At the risk of getting wrong, the MT structure is too "western 20th century" in its approach.

Colonial/subsector forces owing fealty to the Imperium just sounds more right.

I think you can use the MT structure and still maintain the feudal feel if you just do a little creative embalishment of the OTU background. If you look at the Reserve Fleets and Sub-Sector navies as the same units looked at from two different perspectives. As far as the IN is concerned they are Reserve Fleets, trained and subsidized by the IN and integrated into warplanning as such. From the perspective of the nobility they are seperate navies, payed for (at least in part) by the local nobility only to be put under direct IN command in time of war.

The key to this is understanding the unofficial purpose of these forces. They are the Imperium's insurance policy against rogue admirals charging to Capital to take advantage of a political crisis. Any admiral who would consider doing so would know that there would be dozens of small reserve fleets to resist his march, and they would have to leave behind forces in their home base to keep the local reserve navies in check and protect their political base from attack from other reserve fleets not on their line of advance.

Here's my take on how a system like this comes into existance:

The Imperial Military

The organization of the Imperial Military is the result of the Imperium’s environment and history. Each of the three services is organized and commanded differently for very specific reasons. Most of the current system was put in place as series of reforms by Arbellatra after she became Regent in 622. She recognized that the unitary command structure of the Imperial Military was contributing to the political instability of her times.

Prior to the reforms there were only two Imperial services, the Navy and the Scouts. All military activities were organized and carried out by the Navy, with admirals having tremendous power. This system had worked well during the period of rapid expansion. Admirals raised fleets at the direction of Archdukes. These fleets conducted operations against small interstellar states of a few systems at most, quickly overwhelming them.

As the Imperium’s borders drew far from Core the system began to break down. Finally, after contact with the other large interstellar polities, which forced both the developments of massive fleets to deal with vast interstellar enemies and constrained expansion, the system turned in upon itself. Fleets on the frontiers were more loyal to their admirals than to the Imperium. Marines became large, mobile, private armies for the admirals. The cycle of mobilization and demobilization meant that many naval personnel were left jobless even after successful campaigns and the lack of new territories meant that these newly demobilized personnel could not be rewarded with new fiefs or positions in newly established local Imperial government. Additionally, the lack of any standing reserve fleets or coordinated terrestrial defense planning had cost the Imperium dearly at the beginning of the First Frontier War and prevented any coordinated local defense against Rebellious Fleets during the Civil Wars.

Arbellatra’s solution was to create three military services and to fundamentally restructure the Navy as well. A large standing Naval Reserve was formed to absorb demobilizing personal and give them career security after major wars. The Marines were separated from the Navy and limited in size to prevent admirals from using them as private armies. Finally, the Imperial Army was founded as a permanent standing force to organize terrestrial defenses beyond the star system level. The structure created a mobile Navy with deep local reserves capable of massing to effectively defending the Imperial boundary, but limited in its offensive capabilities without long term planning and redeployment. The new Imperial Army created the ability to deny key systems to anyone attempting to move across Imperial space. The limits on the Marines prevented their use to overcome the new Imperial Army. This effectively put an end to large scale imperial expansion, but eliminated the ability of any one commander to mass forces to threaten the Imperial throne.

The result of these reforms was dramatic for two reasons. First, the restructuring of the military broke the power of the admirals and put an end to the generation of civil war that had wracked the 3rd Imperium. Beyond this structural change though, the implementation of the military reform had tremendous benefits to Arbellatra and the dynasty she founded. By putting the Navy Reserve in the hands of the local nobility, who were now loyal to her, it put tremendous naval power distributed across the entire Imperium in the hands of the future imperial royal family. Similarly, by using demobilized sailors and marines from her own forces as the cadre of the Naval Reserve and new Imperial Army, she ensured an institutional loyalty to the Alkhalikoi family. In this sense, the Military Reform was a total success. It fixed the structural problems that had destabilized the Imperium and it tremendously enhanced the power of the individual that had proposed it.

There are other advantages to this system as well, both military and social. On the military side, you need to maintain a strong naval presence on the border while regular navy fleets move to the war zone. Having a standing navy reserve gives you a force that stays in place to provide protection and deterence while the fleets are moving. On the social side, the subsector navies give the elite a chance to have naval service and even a career (and the potential social advancement that goes with it) without the serious risk of leaving the local area.

As to how it is all payed for, the Navy has its own revenew stream, seperate from the normal Imperial tax system, based on small user and transaction fees on travel and commerce. Therefore, good commerce means a strong Navy (and anyone who disrupts commerce is literally picking the Navy's pocket). Local Navies are payed for by the nobility or the planetary governments, but subsidized by the Imperial Navy.

The Imperial Navy influences the organization of local fleets by subsidizing the purchase of only ships that meet the Navy's war plans. So, most of the ships in these forces are free or very cheap to buy as long as they are in the IN's force structure concept. That means that the main expense for the local navies is payroll, which significantly reduces the cost of these forces for the local nobility or planetary government.

Just my thoughts...

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Hal:
Reserves have different meaning in different contexts.

Well, I thought I made which version I was talking about in each instance pretty clear.

Originally posted by Hal:
The question was - how can you have a reserve unit that, like the National Guard reserves, only owes a short time duration for service to qualify for "reservist pay" and still be able to live a civilian life. Clearly, this is not someone who is on active duty who owes 4 years of his life to the Military.

Yes, I would agree. But the forces of the SuN are *not* part-time reservists.

CT has no mention of any such concept that I remember (someone cite something . . .).

MT's IN information is a part of the timeline that leads straight to the Rebellion and Virus. Both don't happen IMTU. Both don't happen in GT (which, IIRC, you use). So, ANAICT, AFAWC, MT's IN organizational information is a non-issue.

I can see that the SN and SuN might maintain their own internal "reservist" "part-timers", but canon doesn't seem to support it, and I think the SuN is definitely not that sort of force because you can serve many terms in a career in it. "Reservist" forces aren't usually thought of as offering "career" job positions (well, maybe a few for the skeleton crew that keeps it all going) because it's mostly part-time.

Originally posted by Hal:
In combat, a reserve is a unit not as yet committed to battle,

Yes.

Originally posted by Hal:
A third possible definition is a "In case of emergency, these units can be integrated within our command structure, but they are otherwise NOT part of our command structure".

Yes.

Originally posted by Hal:
So which definition of "Reserve" did they mean in the REBELLION SOURCEBOOK when they detailed fleet structure?

MT materials are a source inspiration to me in building MTU. But that is all.

It also doesn't help that I don't have the Rebellion Sourcebook.

Originally posted by Hal:
One thing of note is the fact that ships must be placed in ordinary if there is no reason to keep them active duty.

Yes but . . .

I still feel that high tech ships have greater resistence to idleness than our TL-8 Navy ships of today do. They can probably stand up to sitting around for months, or even many months, before requiring any type of specific mothballing activity.

At the highest TLs, 14 & 15, I'd even argue that ships, completely shut down, and that were in good repair when shut down, can stand up to several years of sitting around doing nothing (especially if parked in an orbit behind a system object that would keep the ship out of the direct light of the local primary, or in a very far orbit of the local primary).

Originally posted by Hal:
Ultimately, what is a reserve?

Well then, shall we engage in a semantics topic, and come up with correct and acceptable terminology?

Here: The Reserve, Reserves, and Reservists of the IN.

Originally posted by Hal:
As one person noted, perhaps it should have been called "reinforcements" rather than reserve re to FFW.

I don't have FFW, and it isn't a factor for me.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
As I mentioned earlier, the MT based organization structure just isn't "feudal" enough.

At the risk of getting wrong, the MT structure is too "western 20th century" in its approach.

Colonial/subsector forces owing fealty to the Imperium just sounds more right.

If MT had, outright, discussed this IN organization change in the same way as the Archdukes getting their power restored, i.e. another one of "Strephon's Reforms", and then discussed the widespread discontent of fleet elements and commanders due to the changes, as well as the disaffected Sector Dukes everywhere who lost out on a major feature of their jobs, that would all go a long way to more justifiably . . . oops, I'm going the wrong way again. My apologies.

 

[mike wightman]

No need to apologise.

It's just this sort of conflict that could make the 1110-1116 years more interesting.

Colonial/subsector Navies could well have traditions going back to before their home systems "joined" the Imperium.

To suddenly find that they are now considered as mere reserves and not front line combatants - as they were in the run up to, and early months of, the Fifth Frontier War - could cause problems

 

[mike wightman]

Some other thoughts that have just occurred to me.

First off, where in MT character generation or High Guard character generation can a character transfer between Navies?

Second, where in the Traveller rules does it mention that Naval characters who muster out are now part of a Naval Reservist force?

Thirdly, even in MT a character chooses to join the Subsector Navy - now called the Reserve Fleet - at 18 and then serves his/her terms of service.

Conclusion; a question - where did this "reservist fleet" crewed by part timers and mustered out regulars (Planetary, Subsector, or Imperial) idea come from?

This could be a new mustering out benefit - Naval reservist.
What would be its benefits and who pays the bills?

 

[Ranger]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
...Some other thoughts that have just occurred to me.

This could be a new mustering out benefit - Naval reservist.
What would be its benefits and who pays the bills?

AM6 has rules for the Solomani Home Guard (part time military) on pg 18. You could just use those rules. The advantages are that you get to make skill rolls on the military tables as well during CG and you get access to military facilities (like retired vets in the Imperium). You can also get a military pension after 20 years even if you were never active duty military.

Since they didn't include similar rules for Imperial character generation in MT it would seem to imply that the Imperium (as envisioned by GDW) doesn't have part time reservists.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Colonial/subsector Navies could well have traditions going back to before their home systems "joined" the Imperium.

To suddenly find that they are now considered as mere reserves and not front line combatants - as they were in the run up to, and early months of, the Fifth Frontier War - could cause problems

It wouldn't be "suddenly".

The status of these forces would usually be negotiated prior to the world/subsector being incorporated into the Imperium.

There are two main reasons for making them reserve rather than regular fleets. First, of course, it can be difficult for the regular navy to assimilate them, for whatever reason. Second, the former pocket empire/independent world will often prefer to retain control of their navies, rather than handing them over to the Imperium.

In any case, of course, they will often be in the frontline in any actual war, right from the very beginning. That's another reason why their homeworlds want to keep them under their control - to ensure that they are available when they are needed, and aren't moved off to some other area without good cause.

So, locally, the "reserves" may actually be the frontline forces!

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:

Conclusion; a question - where did this "reservist fleet" crewed by part timers and mustered out regulars (Planetary, Subsector, or Imperial) idea come from?

I have no idea. Nothing I've seen suggests that there is anything like it in the Imperium.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:

Conclusion; a question - where did this "reservist fleet" crewed by part timers and mustered out regulars (Planetary, Subsector, or Imperial) idea come from?

I have no idea. Nothing I've seen suggests that there is anything like it in the Imperium. </font>[/QUOTE]I mentioned it, not sure if I initiated the thought but I definitely defined it. However I did definitely prefaced it with "IMTU."

It just seemed to make more sense in the way I want MTU to work. I haven't seen anything official either way. Though I have seen implications, nothing firm. Just like i funded the privy purse at various levels, "IMTU" I have yet to see any mention anywhere in canon as to exactly where a Nobel gets any income. Though it is definitely implied that he has an income.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by alanb:
It wouldn't be "suddenly".

The status of these forces would usually be negotiated prior to the world/subsector being incorporated into the Imperium.

There are two main reasons for making them reserve rather than regular fleets. First, of course, it can be difficult for the regular navy to assimilate them, for whatever reason. Second, the former pocket empire/independent world will often prefer to retain control of their navies, rather than handing them over to the Imperium.

In any case, of course, they will often be in the frontline in any actual war, right from the very beginning. That's another reason why their homeworlds want to keep them under their control - to ensure that they are available when they are needed, and aren't moved off to some other area without good cause.

So, locally, the "reserves" may actually be the frontline forces!

Prior to the Fifth Frontier war subsector fleets are referred to as Colonial squadrons. They are locally raised and manned.
This was encouraged by the Imperial Navy.

The fact that they can, in times of war, be Imperialized is a fact that

is not necessarily well-publicized before hostilities begin.

During the MT era they are referred to as Reserve fleets... second class... inferior...

 

[mike wightman]

While typing the above post a thought struck me.

CT is looking at things from a local's point of view.

MT is looking at things from a top down Imperial point of view.

While the local nobility of the Spinward Marches refer to the Alell squadron, or the Jewell squadrons, the Imperial Navy refers to them as their numbered reserve fleet squadron ID.

Hence the numbering of the Colonial reinforcement squadrons in FFW...

Mind you, I still think referring to Colonial squadrons as Imperial Naval Reserves will still get the locals' backs up

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hal:
Ok, some thoughts to add to this melee of concepts

First, using the cost rules and the maintenance rules for units that are outside of your normal tech level infrastructure (ie TL 15 units on worlds not TL 15) the cost doubles both point blank and in the maintenance department. I've been working at pricing armies using GROUND FORCES and came to the conclusion that one of the hidden costs for the Spinward Marches Military is on its ground pounder force mix.

Are these cost guidelines in GURPS Traveller?
You mention Ground Forces... </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, those cost guidelines are from GURPS GROUND FORCES. Thing is, you can do the exact same kind of pricing using CT, MT, TNE, or any other Traveller system. CT has Striker rules for creating vehicles, and since Striker, I don't think there is a single game system that didn't include vehicle design rules.

 

[aramis]

MT Players' Manual, page 52, links the former colonial squadrons and the reserve fleets. Top of page.

Reserve fleets are maintained by Provinces/Subsectors. Therefore, the old named fleets of Pre 5FW, are assigned numbers to match the Imperial Fleets in the subsector, dubbed reserve, and allowed to operate on their own until needed...