Fleet Structures & funding

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Aramis:
MT Players' Manual, page 52, links the former colonial squadrons and the reserve fleets. Top of page.

Reserve fleets are maintained by Provinces/Subsectors. Therefore, the old named fleets of Pre 5FW, are assigned numbers to match the Imperial Fleets in the subsector, dubbed reserve, and allowed to operate on their own until needed...

Which is why the Colonial reinforcement squadrons in FFW have Imperial Navy numbered status rather than the names of the planets they have been stripped from following Imperialization, to use MWM's term.

It all makes sense now.

 

[mike wightman]

Now, if Colonial fleets do receive the odd ship as a hand me down from the Imperial Navy, do they have to pay anything for it?

Hand me downs are the most cost effective way for low and average stellar worlds to maintain a Colonial squadron.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Now, if Colonial fleets do receive the odd ship as a hand me down from the Imperial Navy, do they have to pay anything for it?

Hand me downs are the most cost effective way for low and average stellar worlds to maintain a Colonial squadron.

Most Subsectors have tons of credits for capital ship purchase and maintenence. They don't need castoffs.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Most Subsectors have tons of credits for capital ship purchase and maintenence. They don't need castoffs.

Except that the castoffs already exist, and are therefore cheaper than building new ships. Presumably they are adequately effective for their duties, too.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Now, if Colonial fleets do receive the odd ship as a hand me down from the Imperial Navy, do they have to pay anything for it?

Hand me downs are the most cost effective way for low and average stellar worlds to maintain a Colonial squadron.

Most Subsectors have tons of credits for capital ship purchase and maintenence. They don't need castoffs. </font>[/QUOTE]That would depend greatly on the subsector. For example, Mora, Rhylanor, Trin and Glisten would have no problems coming up with a rather impressive, bleeding edge subsecctor fleet. The Lanth Subsector on the other end of the spectrum only has one Class A Starport and that system is only TLB so hand me downs would be very welcome in Lanth. Lanth is also sparsely populated at best.
The best Regina can muster is a pair of Class A starports in systems with a TLD. Jewell is totally screwed, but would have a large concentration of Regular Imperial Navy Squadrons.

While Subsectors have resources and ready cash that doesn't mean they can build current Naval ships. There are other factors involved.

IMTU the hand me downs are going to be kept, mostly, in house and in the Imperial Navy Reserve with part timers maning, maintaining and training with them. The Colonial Squadrons will be part of the reserve fleet, if activated for combat, but will otherwise answer to the Subsector Duke.

Thinking about it the Subsector level will, IMTU be the lowest echelon where ships will be built with Spinal mounts and Jump Drive. The lesser nobility aren't trusted that far.

 

[mike wightman]

Thinking outloud here.

Are you going to add a "reservist" package to character generation?
Is a part time reservist paid? Who by? Can they retire with a pension?

Is "reservist" going to be added to your mustering out tables? What benefits will it bring? What are the drawbacks (other than not being able to travel because you have to be available for training, maintenace duties, and call-up )?

Which normal careers will be eligible to be part time Naval reservists?

The answers could be very interesting

 

[Hal]

Reservist character packages should, IMHO, comprise skill sets from both the civilian life and the Military life of the character. In addition, military life for such a character should not be as extensive as that of a full time military person, and likely should be filled with a lot of Skill-0 level skills or at best, skill-1 skill levels for the various skills the reservists are picking up for their limited training times etc.

 

[BetterThanLife]

I would, and have kept it as a NPC career. As I don't want my PCs planet bound or even stuck on a specific route. (Though I have yet to have a character ask for a Subsidy to run a Subbie.) When I was a player I wouldn't ask for something that would tie me down the way one of those commitments would. Though for some reason a Detached Duty Scout never bothered me, nor any of my Players.

I did play one PC that ended up being intimately involved in Colonial Subsector Fleet Operations, in a positive way, not as, in "being hunted by the Subsector Colonial Fleet." He was also a major influence on the Sector Reserve Fleet. (Which, as already discussed, was an additional entity.)

It happened to be part of his job upon retiring from the Navy and he was pretty much forced to settle down to do that. If you deal with one weekend a month and a block of time once a year, because of the nature of Jump Drive, you would pretty much have to be planet bound for your civilian career.

Now IMTU the Imperial Navy pays the Naval Reserves. The Subsector Government Pays the Colonial Subsector Navy. (Which may include SDB and Monitors acting as Guard Ships for those worlds without resources to provide their own.) The Colonial Subsector Navy, AKA Ducal Navy, could also have a reserve component. (Primarily to maintain the cast offs of the Subsector Navy and to help pick up the slack in the event that the Subsector Navy gets activated. (After all what is the point of having the Colonial Navy around, if in times of Crisis there are no ships left behind.)

Just my Cr.02

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Thinking outloud here.

Are you going to add a "reservist" package to character generation?
Is a part time reservist paid? Who by? Can they retire with a pension?

Is "reservist" going to be added to your mustering out tables? What benefits will it bring? What are the drawbacks (other than not being able to travel because you have to be available for training, maintenace duties, and call-up )?

Which normal careers will be eligible to be part time Naval reservists?

The answers could be very interesting

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Mora, Rhylanor, Trin and Glisten would have no problems coming up with a rather impressive, bleeding edge subsecctor fleet. The Lanth Subsector on the other end of the spectrum only has one Class A Starport and that system is only TLB so hand me downs would be very welcome in Lanth. Lanth is also sparsely populated at best.

Since Lanth is not a duchy [*] it wouldn't have a subsector navy. It would be patrolled by the IN fleets stationed there plus units of the Duchy of Regina Navy.

[*] Implied by p. 18 of GT:Nobles. I know some people don't accept GT material as canon, but I do. Anyway, a Duchy of Lanth would have an income of 2% that of the Duchy of Regina.

The best Regina can muster is a pair of Class A starports in systems with a TLD. Jewell is totally screwed, but would have a large concentration of Regular Imperial Navy Squadrons.

Jewell is a county under the Duke of Regina [The Spinward Marches Campaign] so it would be patrolled by the Regina Navy. But I agree that the Regina Navy would be happy to buy 40 year old TL 14 and 15 ships from he IN.

While Subsectors have resources and ready cash that doesn't mean they can build current Naval ships. There are other factors involved.

It is possible that Efate has a starship technology of 14 (or even 15 IIRC). World Builder's Handbook opened for the possibility of certain sections of a world's technology being higher than its High Common TL. I think it allowed for a difference of two TLs, but I may be misremembering; it may only be one TL.


Hans

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Mora, Rhylanor, Trin and Glisten would have no problems coming up with a rather impressive, bleeding edge subsecctor fleet. The Lanth Subsector on the other end of the spectrum only has one Class A Starport and that system is only TLB so hand me downs would be very welcome in Lanth. Lanth is also sparsely populated at best.

Since Lanth is not a duchy [*] it wouldn't have a subsector navy. It would be patrolled by the IN fleets stationed there plus units of the Duchy of Regina Navy.

[*] Implied by p. 18 of GT:Nobles. I know some people don't accept GT material as canon, but I do. Anyway, a Duchy of Lanth would have an income of 2% that of the Duchy of Regina.</font>[/QUOTE]Well GT is alternative canon. But even if Lanth were not a Duchy, why Regina and not Rhylanor? Rhylanor is definitely the economic powerhouse of the two. I personally don't own much GT material. Alternative Canon is, I believe the accepted phrase.

) There are definitely major differences between GT and CT/MT/T20 in terms of basic concepts, economics being a serious one.

Besides one would think Regina would already have its hands full with both Regina and Jewell, (Which I seem to remember actually being part of Canon, that Jewell was administratively controlled from Regina.)

<EDIT> Well duh you just quoted one source in The Spinward Marches Campaign, it is also stated as such in Supp-3. </EDIT>

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The best Regina can muster is a pair of Class A starports in systems with a TLD. Jewell is totally screwed, but would have a large concentration of Regular Imperial Navy Squadrons.

Jewell is a county under the Duke of Regina [The Spinward Marches Campaign] so it would be patrolled by the Regina Navy. But I agree that the Regina Navy would be happy to buy 40 year old TL 14 and 15 ships from he IN. </font>[/QUOTE]Well it is implied that part of the manufacturing process of the Kinunir class was constructed by General Shipyards' sattelite yards on EFATE and Pixie, though they lacked the facilities to produce ships of that size there. (So final assembly was carried out on Regina.) Could be why the Kinunir had no armor, after all at TLA it would be difficult to work with TLF armor.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />While Subsectors have resources and ready cash that doesn't mean they can build current Naval ships. There are other factors involved.

It is possible that Efate has a starship technology of 14 (or even 15 IIRC). World Builder's Handbook opened for the possibility of certain sections of a world's technology being higher than its High Common TL. I think it allowed for a difference of two TLs, but I may be misremembering; it may only be one TL.


Hans </font>[/QUOTE]Well I just looked up a couple of things. According to Adventure 1, EFATE and Pixie have ancilliarly shipyards for General their capacity is limited to 600 tons each. Now that may be the General yards only and other companies might have other yards. (Blisten and LSP both having yards at GLISTEN for example.) I definitely don't see EFATE having a major naval shipyard. With it being home of the Ine Gvar terrorist movement and a quagmire for Imperial Army forces, putting a major naval shipyard that close to the border in that kind of unrest sounds like a really poor plan. (Not saying that it isn't done, it just seems less likely.)

Lacking a Depot system, I would think that major combatants would be built at Rhylanor, Trin, Mora and Glisten. (Or perhaps only two of them.) and other shipyards with naval contracts, even if they had the TL for more than maintenance, would build escorts. Or perhaps even slightly more likely that a handfull of Cruisers be built at two of those and Drednaughts/Battleships/Battleriders/Battletenders are only built out of the Sector.

We know there is a major Naval yard at Mora. (THat is where they stored the AHLs in the Sector that were in Ordinary, and the TL13 Voroshilef Battleships.) We don't know if they do actual construction. We do know that several of the AHL class ships were built in the Spinward Marches by LSP. We also know that the Empress Troyhune was built at Mora, though that is a large monitor.

There is no evidence of Drednaughts being built in the Marches. Interesting.

 

[savage]

I always assumed that Glisten filled in the depot role but wasn't controlled by the navy...hence never classified as such.


Savage

 

[savage]

I always assumed that Glisten filled in the depot role but wasn't controlled by the navy...hence never classified as such.


Savage

 

[mike wightman]

The AHL ships built in the Marches by LSP were probably produced either at Lunion/Lunion, Strouden/Lunion, or both.

The Ling Standard products shipyards at Lunion and Strouden are the major shipbuilding points within the entire Spinward Marches.

CT S3, page 24.

The Ling Standard products shipyards at Lunion and Strouden are two of the largest producers of starship hulls in the Marches, specializing in warships for the Imperial Navy.

SMC page 19.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
The AHL ships built in the Marches by LSP were probably produced either at Lunion/Lunion, Strouden/Lunion, or both.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The Ling Standard products shipyards at Lunion and Strouden are the major shipbuilding points within the entire Spinward Marches.

CT S3, page 24.

The Ling Standard products shipyards at Lunion and Strouden are two of the largest producers of starship hulls in the Marches, specializing in warships for the Imperial Navy.

SMC page 19. </font>[/QUOTE]I read that too. But Lunion and Strouden are both about 2 TLs behind the leading edge of ship building in the Marches. It would be a great place for thigs other than bleeding edge starships, which is what the AHL was when first constructed. Even when the ships are being retired in the 1100s Neither Lunion nor Strouden is up to the TL of the ships as built, TLE.

 

[far-trader]

My thoughts on some of the Kinunir problems including the TL and builds, especially as relates to the General Shipyards models:

Lick the Clink

Apologies, it's late, my mind is going it'll be puns next. You don't want the puns

I'll log off before that happens.

 

[Hal]

One thing that dismayed me when I looked at it - was a general list of Depot systems and their attendant Tech levels. I had always assumed that Depot systems were TL 15. Silly me!

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
But Lunion and Strouden are both about 2 TLs behind the leading edge of ship building in the Marches. It would be a great place for things other than bleeding edge starships, which is what the AHL was when first constructed. Even when the ships are being retired in the 1100s Neither Lunion nor Strouden is up to the TL of the ships as built, TLE.

We already know from the Traveller Adventure that the Navy sometimes builds high tech weaponry in one location and then ships it to the assembly yard.
There is also the TL bonus that Hans mentioned, first apperaing in Grand Census and then repeated in World Builder's Handbook.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Hal:
One thing that dismayed me when I looked at it - was a general list of Depot systems and their attendant Tech levels. I had always assumed that Depot systems were TL 15. Silly me!

Umm, how about the TL is for local manufacturing ability
The ship components are built elsewhere and shipped in as needed.
There could be warehouses full of TL15 components for resupply, repair, and refit purposes.

Or the stats are for the mainworld, the Depot itself is elsewhere in the system and offlimits - so it isn't catalogued by the Scouts.

Or - its broken and in need of errata

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
But Lunion and Strouden are both about 2 TLs behind the leading edge of ship building in the Marches. It would be a great place for things other than bleeding edge starships, which is what the AHL was when first constructed. Even when the ships are being retired in the 1100s Neither Lunion nor Strouden is up to the TL of the ships as built, TLE.

We already know from the Traveller Adventure that the Navy sometimes builds high tech weaponry in one location and then ships it to the assembly yard.
There is also the TL bonus that Hans mentioned, first apperaing in Grand Census and then repeated in World Builder's Handbook. </font>[/QUOTE]If it is the case that the TL for starship building is above the general TL for the system, that is fine, but 110 years after manufacturing TLE ships the general TL isn't up to E yet? I find that difficult to swallow. As for building parts one place and assembling them someplace else, That would work for unarmored ships but armored ships with the latest armor and the latest spinal mount, being assembled elsewhere bothers me. Wouldn't it be easier to assemble the ships where the armor is manufactured? It would certainly be more cost effective than building a hull, moving it then installing things like drives, guns and powerplants. The same with the spinal weapon.

I would think that Those yards would be building the myriad of lower tech craft, like the Patrol Corvettes, Mercenary Cruisers, Auxillaries, Scout ships and other craft that aren't at the highest TL available. Leaving Glisten, Mora, Rhylanor and Trin to build the high tech stuff. On all of those systems you have a large workforce available, a Navy base, high tech right there and specifically mentioned in canon, in Mora's case a boneyard. In Glisten's case since the main world is an Asteroid belt, you can have privacy. Glisten is also out of the primary axis of advance for any of the Frontier wars, so it makes sense to build there.

 

[mike wightman]

A century ago both worlds may been only TL C borderline D , there is also the possiblity that both have advanced to TL E by 1100, having been borderline D/E when the second survey was conducted.
And we know that the data from the second survey in 1065 isn't the most reliable - look how someone noticed they had got the TL of Regina wrong

By 1201 both worlds mentioned have hit TL15, this is with the help of the Regency Industrial Development Program.