Fleets and Logistical Tails

[Garnfellow]

Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics.

Historically, an invading army had been severely limited by the need to supply food, ammo, and fuel to the front lines.

Does a Traveller fleet have significantly less need to maintain a supply line? Does this allow them to range deep and long behind enemy lines?

Fuel is free for the taking. If you capture any Class A or B starport, I assume you would have access to spare parts and repair capabilities. Energy weapons would be OK, but missiles, torpedoes, projectile weapons would need resupply. Are there other logistical needs that would require a secure supply line back to friendly territory?

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, yes.

Three dee printing indicates that factory ships could scavenge the raw materials from wherever they happen to be stationed, like just behind the frontlines, and supply the battlefleets.

Fresh fruit and vegetable provisions may be victualed in tact locally, though.

 

[flykiller]

Are there other logistical needs that would require a secure supply line back to friendly territory?

as you correctly observe, fuel and ammo are minor concerns at traveller rule-sets and tech levels (though one may quibble regarding missile salvo reloads). and food issues are more likely to resemble the "ah! cheeken!" scene in the fifth element. but traveller rules specify that engineers must be present - presumably to do more than push buttons or make scotty-reports of "she's going to blow cap'n!" - and also that annual maintenance is required and that ships which skip this requirement become unreliable and prone to failure, so presumably spare parts and professional maintenance are required. what this means in the way of a logistics train is probably less than the real-world historical norm. I drew up a spreadsheet listing arbitrary peace/war/battle damage repair dtonnages to determine supply ship requirements, came up with 1 supply ship per battle group for peacetime and I think 7 supply ships per battle group for battle repairs. ymmv. now this was for accompanying the fleet - what may be required in the rear may be presumed to be accomplished 1) in shipyards or in 2) mobile shipyards operating with the fleet at reduced capacity. again, ymmv.

 

[Timerover51]

Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics.

Historically, an invading army had been severely limited by the need to supply food, ammo, and fuel to the front lines.

Does a Traveller fleet have significantly less need to maintain a supply line? Does this allow them to range deep and long behind enemy lines?

Fuel is free for the taking. If you capture any Class A or B starport, I assume you would have access to spare parts and repair capabilities. Energy weapons would be OK, but missiles, torpedoes, projectile weapons would need resupply. Are there other logistical needs that would require a secure supply line back to friendly territory?

There have been some discussions about this is other threads. You might want to look at my signature, and then Private Message me. Are you talking of a formal invasion and take over using a large number of ground troops, or just a smash and grab raid? If a full-scale invasion, does the native population nuke their own star port to keep it from use of the invaders? Does the native populace have access to nuclear weapons, chemical, and biological agents? If an industrialized world, access to chemical and biological agents can be assumed as a given.

It should be noted that every chemical agent used in World War 1 is a common industrial chemical now, and during World War 2, the Polish Underground was actively culturing and using biological agents on the Germans. Any pharmaceutical firm producing antibiotics or vaccines is a ready source of biological agents.

Is there prolonged resistance on the part of the planetary population, or is there even a planetary population? How Terra-like is the planet, and can food suitable for human consumption be grown there?

I should note that I am not a fan of the whole idea of planetary invasions, but that does put me in the distinct minority of the forum.

 

[Garnfellow]

I'm specifically looking at the Magyar campaign of the Solomani Rim War. If you look at the map in the Imperial Encyclopedia, it appears that the Imperials ripped up the trailing subsectors of Magyar, driving pretty deep rimward.

I imagine something like Sherman's March: a long, ranging romp behind enemy lines, focusing on the destruction of industrial and commercial capacities. If the Imperials focused on just nuking Class A and B starports, bombing industrial centers, destroying system communication and navigation networks, seizing and scuttling commercial ships -- and explicitly did not worry about capturing or holding worlds, you could wreck a lot of havoc.

If conducted while the main line of Imperial attack focused on the Vegan District, this Magyar campaign would have proven a serious distraction to the Confederation.

But the feasibility of this hinges on the ability of a couple Imperial battle fleets that didn't need to maintain a long logistical tail.

 

[flykiller]

But the feasibility of this hinges on the ability of a couple Imperial battle fleets that didn't need to maintain a long logistical tail.

given existing traveller rulesets a year-long drive seems entirely feasible.

 

[Timerover51]

I'm specifically looking at the Magyar campaign of the Solomani Rim War. If you look at the map in the Imperial Encyclopedia, it appears that the Imperials ripped up the trailing subsectors of Magyar, driving pretty deep rimward.

I imagine something like Sherman's March: a long, ranging romp behind enemy lines, focusing on the destruction of industrial and commercial capacities. If the Imperials focused on just nuking Class A and B starports, bombing industrial centers, destroying system communication and navigation networks, seizing and scuttling commercial ships -- and explicitly did not worry about capturing or holding worlds, you could wreck a lot of havoc.

If conducted while the main line of Imperial attack focused on the Vegan District, this Magyar campaign would have proven a serious distraction to the Confederation.

But the feasibility of this hinges on the ability of a couple Imperial battle fleets that didn't need to maintain a long logistical tail.

Basically, similar to the World War 2 carriers raids in the Pacific. Your tail would be what would be called ammunition ships, especially if you are expending a lot of nukes, food, and life support. If you are just raiding, you are not spending long enough in any system for any form of resupply operation. As long as Gas Giants are available for refueling, the tail would not be that great. It just has to match the Jump and Maneuvering ability of the fleet that it is supporting. You may need some hospital ships as well, depending on how lethal your space combat is.

 

[flykiller]

You may need some hospital ships as well

would hospital ships - hospital capacity above that inherent to any ship - have any utility? it would seem the casualty rate would be heavily tilted towards fatalities.

I have rescue/recovery ships, dedicated to dealing with extracting surviving crew from ruined ships, leaving the rest of the fleet free to deal with tactical issues.

 

[Condottiere]

Since apparently in this universe fusion plants don't go critical, you probably will have a substantial number of survivors.

 

[SanDragon]

What total in tonnage of supply ship to tonnage of battle group?

Was there a correlation?

 

[kilemall]

I'd probably say

• The yearly maintenance is your limit to force a fleet, in parts or a whole, to go back to a base
• I would impose different breakdown rates and costs based on whether they are CT or HG ships- CT ships operate off standard plug-in drive/power components and thus are cheaper to fix in the field, HG ships are all custom and really require a proper starport/base
• Consider also using the Imperium tonnage based Frontier Maintenance type rule, where smaller ships are readily maintained at Outposts but light cruisers on up progressively get more difficult to do without bases and breakdown
• Unless one can ship in enough personnel, the last thing any navy would want to do is allow enemy engineers at a captured starport to do maintenance
• For an extended campaign, probably want to quantify how much it costs to set up B starport repair capabilities at forward bases
• For fuel tooth to tail and maintaining independence of jump in case the enemy has starports and gas giants covered, see our thread from earlier this year
• For parts I would agree that a maker/printer type 'machine shop' is the way to go. I don't agree on the scavenging part as some systems will be metal-poor or not have the requisite rare metals
• Could be that a major source of supply and therefore objective is to 'own the battlefield' at the end, so that all the heavy metals you need for repair are right there in the lost ships of both sides- scrap in place and go, if you have the time before enemy forces come back
• Such maker and scrapper ships would be specialized and expensive and take volume, and such capabilities built into warships will take combat ability away- perhaps both volume and power
• I would limit what can be fixed by the tonnage of maker to part in question
• I would also rule that the parts made from such a field maker are repair in nature, good enough to get through one battle and/or make it home, but will require a starport overhaul to make it permanent
• Missiles in SS3 are stated to be made at Industrial worlds below a certain law level, so that is a logistical concern, any missiles bought or 'made' in the warzone should be QA suspect/failure prone
• Fighters and personnel are going to take a beating, note all those radiation weapon crew hits, so there will need to be a constant stream of replacements- time to nationalize all those subsidized merchants and liners to deliver crew and crated small craft
• Rate of missile use, parts making, etc. and therefore the 'right' percentage of tooth to tail tonnage is going to depend entirely upon the nature, ferocity and frequency of engagements, and so there isn't going to be a set ratio

 

[Condottiere]

It's a complex subject, and the nearest equivalents would be the global stationing by the Royal Navy of bases, so that it allowed their ships to be shorter legged and always be in reach of one, and the Pacific War fleet trains, where the Americans tried to bring everything they needed.

The Imperium is probably logistically dependent of a massive network of bases, since they don't seem in an expansive mood at the moment.

But let's ask the Vargr about their logistic chain.

 

[flykiller]

What total in tonnage of supply ship to tonnage of battle group?

for maintenance, dtonnage equal to .001 of hull, .01 of drives, .01 of bridge, .01 of weapons systems, etc, for entire bg. used by the mobile yard ship for in-field annual maintenance - after all, not every ship will deploy fresh out of the yard, there will be a rolling schedule. imtu easily accomplished.

for major battle damage repairs, dtonnage equal to .01 of hull, .1 of drives, .1 of bridge. .5 of weapons systems, etc, for all bg combatants. actual usage would vary by battle results. this proved to be cargo-capacity intensive, imtu almost prohibitive.

But let's ask the Vargr about their logistic chain.

20 feet, staked in the front yard.

 

[Timerover51]

But let's ask the Vargr about their logistic chain.

I view the Vargr as individual raiders, that might temporarily join together in a larger force to take an especially tough target, sort of like Henry Morgan putting together a coalition of pirates and buccaneers to attack Panama. The individual Vargr are live off of the land types, with very limited to none logistic tail.

 

[Timerover51]

What total in tonnage of supply ship to tonnage of battle group?

Was there a correlation?

Are you asking about the World War 2 Pacific carrier groups?

 

[flykiller]

The individual Vargr are live off of the land types, with very limited to none logistic tail.

to reach the lonely vixens of the great white north, them huskys'll pull that sled.

 

[Reban]

I assume you would have access to spare parts and repair capabilities. Energy weapons would be OK, but missiles, torpedoes, projectile weapons would need resupply. Are there other logistical needs that would require a secure supply line back to friendly territory?

I've always assumed that interstellar trade infers a high degree of standardization. Standard connectors, standard sizes, interchangeable parts and modules. This would especially be true for starships. IMTU the major standard is the 'Imperial Standard' in the OTU there might also be a Solomani Standard.

Practically this means that any military using the common standard would be able to use captured enemy stores or take enemy equipment and ships and harvest the parts they need.

Of course most established enemies will use different standards to prevent such a thing from happening.

Which can be worked around too. For example British musket balls were .75cal and French were .5cal which meant that the French could not use captured French ammunition but the British could fire French ammo from their muskets if needed (although they suffered a penalty).

I can see the Solomani and Imperials operating two different standards like this, but if you're invading areas which you trade with, you may find they use your standards and hence you may be able to at least supplement your logistics requirements by foraging.


Other logistical needs; would that include R&R and entertainment? Sending along an R&R ship or a liner taken up from trade with entertainers, moral experts and "other" diversions might be something to think of. Of course most crews would have on-board entertainments (be they virtual or real) but some cultural input from home is always good for moral on extended operations.

Actually thinking of the Solomani; "party approved" entertainments to reinforce the party message might be a thing.

 

[McPerth]

I've always assumed that interstellar trade infers a high degree of standardization. Standard connectors, standard sizes, interchangeable parts and modules. This would especially be true for starships. IMTU the major standard is the 'Imperial Standard' in the OTU there might also be a Solomani Standard.

I mostly agree on this part, inside each political entity. See taht when you talk about different entities, needs may vary (e.g. Zhodani using Imperial hardware would miss the psionic flickers, and Imperials using Zhodani hardwar will not be able to use them).

This becomes even harder when we talk about different races, due to ergonomics (e.g. something as simple as a chair will be quite uncomfortable for a Vargr or Aslan if it has no provisions for the tail, while human chairs use not to have it).

Also, as tech advances, things become different, and not always compatible (to say the least). How many of us could use a 3.25 disket in his current computer (and I guess many of us used them in the past). Likewise, what would we have done with an USB pendrive when we began using computers?

In the Solomani War, being basically the same political entity (albeit the Solomani having some autonomy), it's quite likely they shared most their hardware (at least until Imeprials developed TL 15), so being mostly able to supply themselves from Solomani assets.

OTOH, when the Solomani attacked while the Rebellion, it's likely technologies have diverged, and they wil lbe less likely to supply themselves from Imperial sources, even if crossborder trade in peace times would have kept some compatibility. SO, it's likely they'd needed a (relatively) larger supply tail than the Imperilas when attacked over a century before.

 

[SanDragon]

I was asking, for example, if you have 1 million tons of battle group, how many tons would be supply ship(s)?

 

[Condottiere]

I believe the usual rule is, whatever figure you come up with, in war double or triple it.