CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
I didn't notice a forgery skill. The closest skill is deception, right?
Forgery
- Thread starter CosmicGamer
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casquilho
SOC-13
I wonder if this is a good place to use the Task Chains? If we look at page 51 “Aiding Another Character” the idea of Task Chains are presented. So the chain might be:
1: Admin (Research what is needed to be forged)
2: Art (Doing the copy)
3: Deception (Presenting the fake as the real thing)
Thus my character wants to buy a forged set of papers. The GM could notate that the Art roll included an effect of 3. I buy the papers and when I present them to the customs people I make my deception check with an unknown +1 the GM adds in because the Art effect riding on the chain.
What do you think?
Daniel
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
I see what your saying but I think you messed up using an example of customs papers.
I think it should be possible for some criminals/rogues to be good at forging paperwork but there is no art skill in their skill tables. A spy/agent is another career where someone might be skilled in forging a document and they also have a deception skill but no art. Also an administrator might be able to because of familiarity with the subject matter, or because they actually create the real thing with fake info. Guess what skills they do and don't have.
For your step 3. Does the person presenting the papers need to be deceptive? For example, lets say your characters are asked to pick something up and are given fake paperwork but they don't know the paperwork is fake.
Now if your forging a painting....
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casquilho
SOC-13
Ok, I was offering an additional way to think about it, not trying to answer all the variables. Sort of a concept rather then a full answer.
But if that route does not meet your needs then go back to the idea of just saying there is a Forgery skill and allow it to be selected in place of a skill on the table. Or just offer it as one of the skills on the skill package at the end of the creation process. Or allow the players to select it as one of the skills they can choose when doing their connections.
In fact, go back to the idea of there being a Crime skill with Forgery as one of the specializations. Pick pocket, safe cracking, and other such crimes could also be specializations.
In the end, select the route that best serves your game. As for me, I just let my players buy forged papers and then they pray they are good enough copies. :devil:
Daniel
But if that route does not meet your needs then go back to the idea of just saying there is a Forgery skill and allow it to be selected in place of a skill on the table. Or just offer it as one of the skills on the skill package at the end of the creation process. Or allow the players to select it as one of the skills they can choose when doing their connections.
In fact, go back to the idea of there being a Crime skill with Forgery as one of the specializations. Pick pocket, safe cracking, and other such crimes could also be specializations.
In the end, select the route that best serves your game. As for me, I just let my players buy forged papers and then they pray they are good enough copies. :devil:
Daniel
Actually forgery can, and often does, require a degree of artwork. I have legally forged documents before and it does require a bit of artistic work; not to a degree for forging a painting. Examples would be paperwork (make sure everything is lined up correctly), ID badges, parking passes, etc.
I don't know if I would use the artist skill, and I think this is the point you are trying to get across. I think I would use the deception skill since the amount of art work is usually small.
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A rogue expert at forging could (should) have a prior term or two as an Artist(Entertainer) to gain those technical skills.
Art chained with Deception would be a good fit.
On the whole, forgery is a skill for an npc rather than a character.
An expert computer with Art/Documents could help all those none-artistic thieves and spies...
Regarding forging artworks, check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaun_Greenhalgh
Maybe there should be a career for 'Man in Shed'.
Apparition
SOC-12
A long time ago, I did something rather dishonest when my plane tickets were not exactly the correct dates I needed them to be for my military leave, so when asked for a copy of my boarding pass by my squad leader, I hit up a program to cut and paste the letters and numbers to make new dates on the ticket.
I tell this story because I believe in a high-tech future society, I think that forgery would take on a different aspect in some cases then it does today. Many documents would probably be done on computers, or holograms or something other then hand-written documents. At which case, security precautions could be something like watermarks, serial numbers, etc. This means that a computer skill check, art, stealing the paper used, or some other preperation could be used for forgery depending on the situation and therefore, in my opinion, unless travelling to a low-tech world, there would probably never be a need for a "forgery" skill check.
I tell this story because I believe in a high-tech future society, I think that forgery would take on a different aspect in some cases then it does today. Many documents would probably be done on computers, or holograms or something other then hand-written documents. At which case, security precautions could be something like watermarks, serial numbers, etc. This means that a computer skill check, art, stealing the paper used, or some other preperation could be used for forgery depending on the situation and therefore, in my opinion, unless travelling to a low-tech world, there would probably never be a need for a "forgery" skill check.
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Initially, I was only thinking of forged ID's and papers which would require less artistry. One of the nice things about these threads though is new thoughts and ideas come popping forth.
1) Initial premise: Forgery falls solely under deception
2) Then I started thinking that maybe forgery should be determined dynamically based on what is being forged. Amra mentioned art and broker had been considerations. Casquilho got me to thinking about forged paintings. Repairing does not fall under one skill - there is engine repair, computer repair, mechanical, electronic and so on. Why couldn't forgery be divided between multiple skills. When creating a fake ID you use deception, for creating customs paperwork use broker, for a painting or artwork you use art(??).
Just now I looked up the different art sub categories and what would you use for painting? Art(acting) no, Art(dance) no, Art (Holography) no, Art(instrument) no, Art(sculpture) not for a painting but what if recreating a sculpture and not a painting, Art(writing) no hmm, would this apply to those documents - no, not as they describe it.
3) I like Casquilhos idea:
but after looking at the tables I couldn't quickly come up with something to pull out. There are other reasons that are a bit off topic for why I didn't look at this closer.
4) In WhiteWolfs' comment:
the word degree caught my eye and I thought maybe forgery describes works that require less art and fall under deception but more artistic works like making fake money or reproducing a great sculpture would not be forgery. Instead call it counterfeiting and use an art skill check.
Anyone have more ideas to throw into the mix?
Want to vote for one of the above ideas?
I tend to go for the more "I can live with that explanation" solution rather than the "lets make a house rule to explain it" style. Therefore, at this time, I am leaning toward either #2 or #1. Below is an expansion of #1 but it is more about deception that forgery.
Deception according to the book is:
A) being able to speak deceptively Book: "Convincing a guard to let you pass" and "lie fluently"
B) being coordinated enough to make deceptive physical actions Book: "Palming a credit chit" and "perform sleight of hand"
C) being very much like an artist including a makeup artist, costume designer, and an actor Book: "Disguising yourself as a wealthy noble to fool client"
A,B, and C are just some examples, the book goes on to say "Most underhanded ways of cheating and lying fall under deception" so I can easily include
- being able to write deceptively producing convincing paperwork and IDs
and because C) is very artistic, I can make the leap to
- being able to create deceptive artistic works like recreating a sculpture or counterfeiting (although their could be a much higher difficulty if no art skill is present)
- being deceptive with a computer so that a message sent can't be tracked back to you
- being deceptive when driving to lose a pursuer
- being deceptive when gambling to pull out that ace up your sleeve
and so much more
Possibly use appropriate variations of casquilhos' skill chain idea or adjust difficulty of the task based on other skills that would help (or hinder if they don't exist).
Example: John is creating fake paperwork to get a cargo through customs. The Deception task is considered difficult.
a) The only one die roll method (sometimes I don't like rolling a lot of dice): If you have no Admin or Broker experience your exposure to these types of documents is limited and the task now becomes very difficult.
or
b) Roll for either Admin or Broker skill and if
- effect is marginal just roll for the deception task as difficult
- effect is average success or average failure, change the difficulty down or up one level
- effect is exceptional, change the difficulty up or down 2 levels
c) use the task chain as in the book for a DM of -3 to +2 on the deception roll
Remember also that time plays a factor. If the character is in a hurry and rushes because its needed right away, the difficulty goes up. If the character takes their time examining paperwork under microscopes, shopping for just the right paper, and so on; the difficulty goes down.
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CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Klaus and Apparition, sorry, but I don't understand those statements. Are you saying that you think forgery should not be created as its own skill? Are you saying that you think that players will never try to forge anything? Maybe you could clear up what you meant in that statement for me.
I do believe there will be times that a skill check is needed for a task that can be described as forgery.
Forgery can be as simple as putting someone else's signature on a piece of legitimate paperwork or, as Apparition points out, a quite complicated task of reproducing an ID with special paper, watermarks implanted data chips and so on.
I can debate the importance of computer, art, and other skills with this
Who would be better at forging/producing a document that has intricate graphics, unique serial numbers and an embedded computer chip.
A Navy Engineer with Computer 3
An Entertainer with Art(??) 3
A Merchant with Broker 3
or a Rogue with Deception 3
IMO, it would be the rogue who could use deception to obtain the materials, people with additional skills, and equipment needed and using his knowledge and experience of what deceptions usually work and have failed, produce the document most likely to pass examination. Or he could simply just go to wherever these documents are made and deceive them into creating one with the information needed.
Yes, many other skills can play a factor. You can use a task chain so that they can all contribute to or hinder success.
Also of note; in the book under the Art(acting) skill it gives an example of "Convincing a person that you are someone else" and under Deception it gives an example of "Disguising yourself as a wealthy noble to fool a client". There are often times when 2 different skills could be used for a task. So there is the possibility that, depending on the situation, a check for a forgery task can be rolled on a choice of skills determined by the GM and different skills might even have different difficulty levels.
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Apparition,
Gee, you think?
And both past and present forgers never needed to worry about things like using the proper inks, using the proper paper, using the proper writing implements, or anything other than simple copying, right? It was just as easy as when you traced your mom's signature on that field trip permission slip, right?
Bollocks.
That assertion is one of the best examples of a gross conceptual error as has graced these boards in many a week.
The 57th Century holder of the forgery skill you so blithely dismiss would have extremely detailed, but narrowly focussed, knowledge of such subjects as computers, art, and materials handling. They'll know that watermarked paper is needed, they'll know what computer-based security measures must be encoded into the document, they'll know of all the esoteric, but vital, bits that a document must have.
Forgery will be harder, it will require more skill, and that's why every version of Traveller - except for Riki-Tiki-Trav - has forgery as a separate skill. Even when first described in the LBBs, forgery attempts were said to require special materials. It's always been more than just the simple matter of a pen and a supple wrist.
The fact that it is missing in Riki-Tiki-Trav is the result of an egregious mistake and a laughable playtest, not a conscious design choice.
This is a matter of errata.
Have fun,
Bill
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Originally Posted by Apparition "I tell this story because I believe in a high-tech future society, I think that forgery would take on a different aspect in some cases then it does today."
"Riki-Tiki-Trav" hmm, I just got my copy less than a week ago and I like it so far, should I be offended? Of course I've been away from traveller since CT so any exposure is good to me and I'm simple minded so I like a simple system.
ok, back on topic, you've thrown into the mix a good point. Now how do you think the errata should go. Which tables would you change (rogue, agent, are there other professions) and what are you going to throw out that is currently on the table?
Hey, take it easy there. All too often i see people reasoning using only "this is the way it is in RL". I like that there was some "In the Traveller Universe it would be more like this" and would like to encourage that type of thinking.
"Riki-Tiki-Trav" hmm, I just got my copy less than a week ago and I like it so far, should I be offended? Of course I've been away from traveller since CT so any exposure is good to me and I'm simple minded so I like a simple system.
ok, back on topic, you've thrown into the mix a good point. Now how do you think the errata should go. Which tables would you change (rogue, agent, are there other professions) and what are you going to throw out that is currently on the table?
casquilho
SOC-13
Just a real quick aside, this is a nick name the new Mongoose Traveller has picked up. It is a play on the Riki Tiki Tavi story about the Mongoose. Thus the play on Mongoose Traveller - Riki Tiki Traveller....
I do not think it is meant as a slam.
Daniel
casquilho
SOC-13
These are just suggestions to think about...
Agent: Put it on the Advanced Education Table. Replace Computers as that skill is already on the sevice skill table.
Merchant?: Advanced Education Table. Replace Pilot as it is on the Mechant Marine and Free Trader skill tables already.
Rogue: Advanced Education Table. Replace Medic as it is the skill least focused on being a rogue IMO.
Maybe add it to the Criminal Skill Package? Not sure...
I would leave the other careers to take it as some kind of Connection selection and leave it to the GM to judge.
Daniel
Apparition
SOC-12
I wrote my comment when I was still half asleep...sorry if I was unclear.
My opinion on the topic of forgery is that in a high-technology, distant future universe, I dont believe that paper would be the standard form of communication/documentation. Landing rights, identification, official doccuments, etc. would most likely be in a digital format, on a computer chip or card or some other medium. Perhaps landing rights would be integrated into the ships transponder.
Im not saying that paper documents wouldn't exist on a lower tech world, in which case forgery may prove useful, but even in modern society, we are becomming more digitalized and moving further and further away from handwritten documents.
But back to the topic at hand, even digital documents would have security measures, and under this theory, computer would be the skill I would pick to do any type of forgery. Security measures would likely be along the lines of encryption codes, or possibly even DNA codes imprinted for authentification.
I dont know if I am answering the question asked....but my opinion is that forgery as a skill is not going to be a common skill, as I dont feel that it would be something widely practiced, even in the darker side of the law. I think technology would have made this skill obsolete in most cases.
Having said that, if someone "MUST" use forgery for their game, I think just a deception roll would be sufficient, I dont believe a new skill would be required in a universe where it would have very limited applications. Then again, I am sure people have different visions in mind of how the Traveller universe functions.
Apparition
SOC-12
I seemed to have missed a few posts it seems.....I have outlined my logic for the opinion I have set forth.....instead of insulting me and talking about how wrong I am....please support your points about how "idiotic" my points are (I am poor at choosing big words) with logical reasoning.
I never suggest any sort of thing, In fact I said the future forger would not equate to the present and past. An I will add that statement to the remainder of your post rather then quote everything else.
casquilho
SOC-13
Let me ask a question because this might help me understand what you are trying to say.
Do you think the word forgery only applies to paper items?
Daniel
Apparition
SOC-12
Forgery: The crime of falsely and fraudulently making or altering a document.
I see where the confusion lies. I have been very wordy in laying my logic for my opinion, perhaps too wordy. I feel that forgery in the future would be more related to hacking then anything else. Hacking decryption codes to change what the documents contain. In that regards I feel no need for a forgery skill at all, as there is a computer skill already detailed out into the game. If there was to be a specific skill for forgery, then yes I would refer it to paper documentation, in which as I have stated, I would not expect there to be many paper documents in the imperium.
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Thanks for clearing things up a bit but I have a different opinion on this part.
I usually try to stay away from using RL examples for traveler, so let me try making a point in this way. Even worlds with the technology for space travel may still use very simple documents with just a few exceptions. At what tech level does the use of checks for transferring funds usually get replaced? (we are getting closer to that) How about paperwork for exchanging property like vehicles, homes, and boats?
Traveller has a wide variety of worlds and those worlds have various tech levels so forgery could be fairly easy on some.
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casquilho
SOC-13
Let's also not forget in this conversation the lack of fast communications between worlds. This would help bring back the need for portable "proof" of various kinds.
I do understand what Apparition is trying to say with the whole Digital angle. In the cases of pure digital then a computer skill of some sort might be the best answer.
Daniel
I do understand what Apparition is trying to say with the whole Digital angle. In the cases of pure digital then a computer skill of some sort might be the best answer.
Daniel
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