Forgery
- Thread starter CosmicGamer
- Start date
CosmicGamer,
How about: "Not all art students can successfully fake a Picasso to a given level and not all computer users can successfully hack to a given level."
Is that explicit enough?
Have fun,
Bill
Klaus,
Sorry, but no.
Forgery is a specific skill that allows the user to apply a mixture of knowledge in an extremely specific manner.
Don't confuse knowledge will skill.
I'm not suggesting forgery is an umbrella skill. CT talks about requisite knowledge and materials for [successful forgery attempts. An art forgery would need some knowledge of art, an computer forgery would need some knowledge of computers, and so forth.
Reread CT, especially the bits about how the skill is used. CT, like the other RPGs of it's era, are "skills-lite". The designers didn't see the need for the dozens and dozens of narrowly defined skills GMs and players today want; i.e. "Using-the-Fresher-4 defaults to Flossing-3." They simply assumed players would use some common sense and interpolate where required.
Try including the word successfully in that sentence. In Traveller you can attempt to do anything without a skill. Whether you'll succeed or not is another question entirely. Anyone can forge a Picasso, but the chances is could pass as a Picasso increase with knowledge and skill. Ditto hacking.
Do you have a copy of my resume? I can confidently assert that I have more knowledge about specific types of forgery, and by default forgery as a whole, than Apparition or you have of forgery in toto.
MGT got it wrong.
I've the final playtest documents, for what they're worth, and that sneak peek didn't impress me too much. Is forgery in the sale copy or is it missing there too?
Have fun,
Bill
Aramis,
I didn't suggest it did. It was an example used in the posts I was responding to.
Check out the other version of Traveller and, while you're at it, check out all the adventures, amber zones, etc. too. As I mentinoed before, skills are used by NPCs too.
That fact is one of Traveller's great strengths; PCs and NPCs are created in the same way and have the same potential. There isn't the PC/NPC "divide" seen in d20-style RPGs where PCs a "monsters' of one type or another.
Forgery belongs in MGT because it is in all other versions of Traveller. Saying it's a "change of perspective" is just an excuse to cover-up either a mistake or editorial whim. We've seen enough of that in [GT, we needn't see anymore of it.
Have fun,
Bill
in MT, forgery is for making convincing fake documents and forging a work of art is done by artisan.
Assuming ALL worlds will have the latest whizzo-bango methods to combat forgery, higher tech will make forgeries easier to detect given time for analysis in a lab. To fool a bored clerk?..tech might make it easier ( or at least quicker ) to accomplish, but the forgery will be found out eventually.
ultimately, forgery works the way the ref says it does. Even if the rule is absent or if the rule covers 10 pages.
Assuming ALL worlds will have the latest whizzo-bango methods to combat forgery, higher tech will make forgeries easier to detect given time for analysis in a lab. To fool a bored clerk?..tech might make it easier ( or at least quicker ) to accomplish, but the forgery will be found out eventually.
ultimately, forgery works the way the ref says it does. Even if the rule is absent or if the rule covers 10 pages.
kinda wonder about a higher TL forgery for a lower TL document. Look at the color copier - get the right paper, make copies of $, could someone (assuming you can find a 50's era bill) from the 50's be able to tell the difference readily? I vaguely recall something like that happening with the early color copier machines. Of course they did get caught.
It also may be culturally or even biologically dependent: would it be harder to forge an alien's document? What if they used a slightly different visual wavelength, so unless you happen to review the original documents in ultraviolet, you would not even see some of the stuff (sort of like our newer bills in the states now use).
But I have to agree with the final part: it works the way the ref says it does. Pretty much applies to most or all of the game anyway. See Hunter's rules about that...
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Sure, but that part was fine the way you had it the first time. It's how you used it to try and prove a point that I thought was wrong. Your comments make sense to you and you probably can not understand why there would be any need for clarification. It's too hard for me to explain what I need clarified when It doesn't make sense to me in the first place. I'll give it one last try.
To prove my point: Not all Gunners can successfully hit their target. Not all apples are red. 2+2 =4.
Just because I state facts doesn't necessarily mean they prove anything. I don't see how some of your comments support what you are saying and needed clarification so that maybe I could see the connection like you do.
No biggie though. Every time I learn something new I look back and realize I used to be an idiot. If I never learn another thing I can be comforted by the fact that I must already know everything.
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CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Exactly my thoughts. My original post was not to debate if forgery should or shouldn't be a skill (although it's been a fun read) but to determine what skill (or skills) to use. If mongoose declares errata and adds forgery as a skill I can live with that too when the time comes.
Cosmic Gamer,
As usual, it's my piss-poor prose style that caused all the trouble.
Realising I'm an idiot is an hourly occurance for me.
I think the "Bribery" thread we two are currently involved in can shed light on a Forgery skill.
In that thread, all the posters have agreed that bribery shouldn't be reduced to a "table look-up", that bribery attempts should be role-played instead. I strongly feel that forgery should be handled the same way; i.e. role-played preparation leading to a die-roll involving the skill.
Many of the posters here believe that Forgery in unnecessary, that only skills in skills relevant to the forgery attempt need apply. You only need to be a artist to forge a Picasso, a computer user to forge a print-out, a printer to forge a currency note, etc.
It is my contention that, while those areas of knowledge are vitally important, skill in forgery is just as important. A forgery attempt is a "blend" and should be role-played before the throw is made. Naturally, the amount of preparation and role-play associated with each forgery attempt depends on the type and kind of forgery attempt, but skill in forgery is part of the picture.
Simply announcing I've got Computer-2 so I'll forge a mid-passage voucher is just as "wrong" as announcing I've got Forgery-2 so I'll dummy up a mid-passage voucher. Traveller is about role-playing and not "roll-playing". Forgery, navigation, or any other skill shouldn't be reduced to a table look-up. If it's all about throwing dice, you might as well be playing Yahtzee.
Have fun,
Bill
Bill, as usual, you fixate on "one right way to play"...
a great many people DO use Traveller as a solitare Roll-play.
Having the mechanical aspects is vital to such people as they often do not have a ref to make calls. T&C is the best example of this.
Therefore when looking at rules, you need to keep in mind that Traveller covers a wider span than many games.
a great many people DO use Traveller as a solitare Roll-play.
Having the mechanical aspects is vital to such people as they often do not have a ref to make calls. T&C is the best example of this.
Therefore when looking at rules, you need to keep in mind that Traveller covers a wider span than many games.
Aramis,
Not exactly, as you'll see below...
And I'm one of those people. However, I also acknowledge that Traveller was and is designed for group role-playing in mind and that solitare play are only a distant concern.
Even in solitare play I take the role of both GM and player. If you're looking for a mechanical, input/output, "If X then always Y" type situation there are oodles of 1st Person Shooter games on the market.
And so, because Traveller needs to cover a wider span, Mongoose limited that span by removing a skill that has been part of the game since it's inception? Does that make sense to you?
I'm surprised you suggested the lack of Forgery skill in MGT somehow widens the span of the game or the lack of a Forgery skill somehow fills wider gaming needs. I actually stated earlier in this thread - in the post that you cautioned me over - that the lack of a Forgery skill narrows the options any GMs or players may have. Let me quote:
Are you seriously suggesting that removing Forgery from MGT actually widens the options GMs and players have?
The lack of Forgery is a mistake on the part of Mongoose and should be dealt with in the errata if only to provide more options for differing styles of play.
Have fun,
Bill
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Apparition
SOC-12
The biggest problem I see here Whipsnade is that you support many of your arguments with "My way is right cause thats how it has always been". You assert that I know nothing about forgery, and you do...check your resume you say...yet you know about as much about me as I know about you. You accuse me of "tunnel vision", and state that I am wrong because someone else may have a different opinion. Your tone seem very combative, you give me the impression that you argue to argue, and not to make the collective gaming group better. If you choose to say that mine, or anyone elses opinions are wrong, you should include how you would do it different....or better yet, dont tell people their OPINIONS are wrong, but submit your own ideas. CT isnt the doctrine of Traveller.....it is a game in a now large span of different traveller rules.....because it has a forgery skill does not mean traveller is broken without forgery.
My opinion hasnt changed....I see no need for that skill in a game where every skill point matters. Just because I see it that way does not mean mongoose, or CT, or you will write your games differently. When I GM....it is my game, and I feel that my opinions in this forum can help to make the game better....either by revealing flaws in writers knowledge, or providing a new perspective on a given subject. As I said before, a forum is for an exchanging of opinions....perhaps you feel your doing that, but I feel that you could go about it in a better way.
This post probably doesnt belong here, so I apologize, but I can only be insulted so many times before I must make my stance clear....I will not respond to an attack on my ideas any further, unless they are supported with logical arguments besides, "my way is the way its always been....."
My opinion hasnt changed....I see no need for that skill in a game where every skill point matters. Just because I see it that way does not mean mongoose, or CT, or you will write your games differently. When I GM....it is my game, and I feel that my opinions in this forum can help to make the game better....either by revealing flaws in writers knowledge, or providing a new perspective on a given subject. As I said before, a forum is for an exchanging of opinions....perhaps you feel your doing that, but I feel that you could go about it in a better way.
This post probably doesnt belong here, so I apologize, but I can only be insulted so many times before I must make my stance clear....I will not respond to an attack on my ideas any further, unless they are supported with logical arguments besides, "my way is the way its always been....."
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Thanks, I understand now why you made those comments.
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
What is T&C?
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Although I understand where your coming from, I disagree that it had to have been a mistake and should be part of errata. I have no problem with mongoose producing errata creating a forgery skill. I have no problem with a GM with a house rule creating a forgery skill. Currently there is no forgery skill in MGT. I can live with that too. My solution is roleplaying and using the skill(s) most appropriate depending on the situation. I think that options for differing styles of play are not being limited.
There are no skills for Firefighting. Does this mean that a fire is always easily put out or it can never be put out?
Adapt, Improvise, Overcome!
casquilho
SOC-13
This does bring up an interesting line of thought. Maybe what it is is not a skill but a career. Forger. They would have computer, Admin, Deception, etc as skills and they "forge" things using those skills. So you go to the forger to work up some fake digital documents, they use those skills needed.
Again, just an idea, not a flushed out item ready to stand the test of the nit-pickers.
Daniel
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Personally I don't think a new career is needed. A Rogue can already get Deception and Computer skills. For those of you that like to customize - maybe a Jack-O-Trades somewhere in the rogue tables. For those of you that want to play things as written, additional skills needed could come from background skills or time spent as a citizen or in some other career.
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