Forgery

[Klaus]

I say 'forgery' is a skill for npc's because IMO if you want something forged you're best off going to a hyper-specialist expert (who is also useless as a pc). It is also a good gaming situation - you need to find the bloke to forge the pass.

Forgery as a skill is far too narrow for the shtick of MGT. It's also not that useful to players - using up a skill opportunity for forgery when you could get deception instead?

Right now 'forging' stuff requires a lot of different skills that are already covered in MGT. To have a forgery skill would require all these other skills too.

So someone with deception, computer, and art/printmaking (or whatever) would probably have a good set of skills for forging stuff.

It's an uncommon game situation anyhow - hardly needs it's own specific skill.

And, to counter a particularly and unnecessarily offensive post, forgery appeared as a skill in other versions of Trav just because it was in CT. There is no other good reason, really. MGT so far has done a very good job of not just simply regurgitating CT ad nauseum.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I say 'forgery' is a skill for npc's because IMO if you want something forged you're best off going to a hyper-specialist expert (who is also useless as a pc). It is also a good gaming situation - you need to find the bloke to forge the pass.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Forgery as a skill is far too narrow for the shtick of MGT. It's also not that useful to players - using up a skill opportunity for forgery when you could get deception instead?

I agree that forgery is fairly narrow. On the other hand they created Art(sculpting)....

Right now 'forging' stuff requires a lot of different skills that are already covered in MGT. To have a forgery skill would require all these other skills too.

Forging high tech documents would require more skills but forging a signature wouldn't and there are lots of things in between those two.

It's an uncommon game situation anyhow - hardly needs it's own specific skill.

IMO forgery would be more used than some of the skills they did put in the book: Drive(mole), Animals(Veterinary), Art(instrument)... And as far as game situation, I rolled a character that had career events of being undercover, deception skills, and a failed event which led to the character having to flee from an enemy who vows to hunt him down. IMO, it would be easy to roleplay this character as stealing other peoples identities to keep his enemy off his trail. No matter what the campaign, any time this character signs something it would be forgery.

Summery - I could go either way in regards to if their should be a forgery skill, but there isn't one and I can live with that. I think that in certain campaigns forgery may not occur often but I disagree that because of technology only people with several skills and/or high level of skills would be capable of forgery on the various worlds throughout the Traveller universe.

 

[Whipsnade]

Forgery: The crime of falsely and fraudulently making or altering a document.

Apparition,

And the word "document" always implies paper?

I feel that forgery in the future would be more related to hacking then anything else.

And MGT's computer skill automatically includes hacking? And hacking on the level sufficient to attempt forgeries?

Try this "thought experiment". We're all "computer literate" here, perhaps on a level of Computer-1. Do you think your computer skills give you a default Hacking/Forgery-0 skill? Knowing what I know about security, I'd say no.

... I would not expect there to be many paper documents in the imperium.

Seeing as the speed of communications is limited to the speed of shipping, I'd expect paper documentation to be in great use. Of course, that "paper" won't be the paper your 21st Century blinders(1) assume it will be. It most likely will contain a molecular computing capacity of some sort to make forgery harder.

As already pointed out, MGT has skills as narrowly focused as Sculpture. Forgery - if MGT hadn't forgot to include it - would be another narrowly focused skill. A skill that blends extremely specific knowledge regarding computer, arts, and subjects.

I assume that MGT has the Intrusion skill or something similar. One could make the same case against Intrusion that you've made against Forgery; after a certain tech level all locks are really computers of some sort and that the Computer skill should replace Intrusion. Of course, such an assertion is nonsense. Intrusion - just like Forgery - is a narrowly focussed skill using specific bits from several areas of knowledge to achieve a certain outcome.

As I've stated before; the fact that Forgery is missing in MGT is a mistake and not a design choice.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - The most common mistakes made when trying to picture Traveller's 57th Century setting is the one of "cultural blinders". People simply cannot envision anything that might be too far removed from their safe, regulated, wealthy, 21st Century Western/First World existence. Instead of opening their minds and employing the totality of human existence past and present, they merely end up producing something best described as "Peoria with Jump Drive".

 

[Klaus]

I assume that MGT has the Intrusion skill or something similar. One could make the same case against Intrusion that you've made against Forgery; after a certain tech level all locks are really computers of some sort and that the Computer skill should replace Intrusion. Of course, such an assertion is nonsense. Intrusion - just like Forgery - is a narrowly focussed skill using specific bits from several areas of knowledge to achieve a certain outcome.

As I've stated before; the fact that Forgery is missing in MGT is a mistake and not a design choice.

'Intrusion' is part of either Mechanic or E/Electronics, bribery is part of Persuade, hacking is part of Computer, and forgery would be part of Deception, mostly. It is a design choice, not a mistake.

Forgery isn't a skill, it's a collection of skills narrowly applied.

Sculpting is just a specialism of Art, not a narrow skill by itself.

 

[CosmicGamer]

And MGT's computer skill automatically includes hacking? And hacking on the level sufficient to attempt forgeries?

Try this "thought experiment". We're all "computer literate" here, perhaps on a level of Computer-1. Do you think your computer skills give you a default Hacking/Forgery-0 skill? Knowing what I know about security, I'd say no.

There is no hacking skill so the computer skill is what is used. In the MGT book as an example task for using the computer skill there is Hacking into a secure computer network: Intelligence, 10-60 hours, very difficult (-4). Hacking is aided by Intrusion programs and made more difficult by Security programs. The effect determines the amount of data retrieved.

Seeing as the speed of communications is limited to the speed of shipping, I'd expect paper documentation to be in great use. Of course, that "paper" won't be the paper your 21st Century blinders(1) assume it will be. It most likely will contain a molecular computing capacity of some sort to make forgery harder.

Maybe because all communication has to be shipped it would use an electronic data format to reduce space. After arriving, the messages are sent once connected to the network at its destination. Any communication that fails delivery would be stored at the local scouts office and possibly printed and sent in other methods on a low tech world.

I assume that MGT has the Intrusion skill or something similar. One could make the same case against Intrusion that you've made against Forgery; after a certain tech level all locks are really computers of some sort and that the Computer skill should replace Intrusion. Of course, such an assertion is nonsense. Intrusion - just like Forgery - is a narrowly focussed skill using specific bits from several areas of knowledge to achieve a certain outcome.

Unless i missed it there is no intrusion skill in MGT and the closest I could think of real quick would be Athletics(co-ordination) or possibly Mechanic skill for knowing how the internal mechanisms work.

1 - The most common mistakes made when trying to picture Traveller's 57th Century setting is the one of "cultural blinders". People simply cannot envision anything that might be too far removed from their safe, regulated, wealthy, 21st Century Western/First World existence. Instead of opening their minds and employing the totality of human existence past and present, they merely end up producing something best described as "Peoria with Jump Drive".

I have noticed that people do like giving their RL examples and sometimes don't think about how far in the future things take place and then there are people that think the entire Traveller universe would be high tech and futuristic and they don't allow for the diversity. It doesn't help that the books themselves tend to be a little "stuck in time". There are lots of tools that would be available that would make better weapons than a cutlass, rapier, staff... On the Melee weapon list there is just one weapon above TL3. Getting way off topic here so I'll stop now.

 

[Apparition]

I was about to post my reply on Whipsnade's post, but it seems cosmic gamer made all of my points for me except for one

And the word "document" always implies paper?

Of course it does not....I have a file on my computer called "My Documents" none of which are on paper.

My opinion on this subject seems on par with many here...as a game master, I dont want my players to waste precious skill points on a skill that I see little use for. I do agree with the posters that say there may be a need for paper documents, but again, as technology evolves, paper will be pushed to the background. Since the traveller universe fits a large scale of technology, there is no easy answer I suppose, but above certain levels, I would believe more efficent means of information transfer will be used.
To answer other comments:

Let's also not forget in this conversation the lack of fast communications between worlds. This would help bring back the need for portable "proof" of various kinds.

I still believe that this would be handled digitally. From reading the trade section about mail, I am under the impression that even the standard mail is all just digital mail being transported by ship to be uploaded and forewarded upon arrival, although I may be wrong.

Even worlds with the technology for space travel may still use very simple documents with just a few exceptions. At what tech level does the use of checks for transferring funds usually get replaced? (we are getting closer to that)

I whole heartilly agree, that tech level makes a huge difference in the way this whole line of discussion could go. Fund transfer should begin at TL 7 and be the norm at TL8

How about paperwork for exchanging property like vehicles, homes, and boats?

At higher tech levels, most vehicles have onboard computers, hell most of our modern cars do now, that would be an easy way of transfering ownership.
At lower levels, depends on the world I suppose.

Either way, I think I have beat this post to death, so I will shut up now Sorry if I seem to be saying the same thing over again, but there seemed to be some initial confusion to my point of view on the subject, and it doesnt help that I usually write my posts when I am tired

 

[aramis]

See, I'm one of those who sees Intrusion and Forgery as skills that don't need to be.

Intrusion is covered by Admin, Computer, Electronic, and Mechanical. Admin to get the plans. Computer, electronic and mechanical to bypass or spoof each of the various locks.

Forging an identity document: Admin, Edu, probably formidable, only difficult if access to similar tools, or easy if access to official tools. (In the last case, if one is at DMV, and has access to the IDprinter, one can very easily create a bogus ID simply by using the legit tools. It's still not a proper ID, as it won't have the computer entry... nor the extra copy sent to the archives, etc.

Likewise, I know a chap with an excellent forged SSAN card. How? He stole a few genuine blanks. How do I know they were forged? The accountant for the store called social security and found out the numbers had no associated living account, and the dead guy's name didn't match. It did have the full card, not just the pocket card. (Most forgeries don't...) I'd say he needed a computer roll to do the graphics and an admin to have the right data.

Heck, anytime we make prop ID's, we're technically forging. If you can make a really good looking prop, you can make a really good looking ID.

 

[casquilho]

So it sounds like we have made the full circle a couple of times.

In order for anyone to create fake documents (Yes Digital Documents are still documents) they could use:

1: A specific skill created for such a thing. (forgery/Crime/etc)
2: Use a combination of existing skills to create a chain. (Computer/Admin/Art/what ever)
3: Just buy them from someone else and not deal with the skills needed.

Seems like this covers all the variations that have been offered so far. So until Mongoose says different, I say select the path that best fits your vision of the game and the TU and run with it.

Daniel

 

[aramis]

Mongoose implied differently by not including the skill. (I did ask about it during the playtest. So it is likely intentional.)

 

[casquilho]

Mongoose implied differently by not including the skill. (I did ask about it during the playtest. So it is likely intentional.)

What do you mean differently? If they left it out and expect us to either do #2 or #3 on my list is that not still on the list? I do not understand what you are trying to say. Did I miss a fourth option on my list?

Daniel

 

[aramis]

You said "So until Mongoose says different, " well, they did eliminate #1 since, during the playtest, it was in one of my playtest reports.

#2 or #3 are thus the obvious option.

 

[Whipsnade]

My opinion on this subject seems on par with many here...as a game master, I dont want my players to waste precious skill points on a skill that I see little use for.

Apparition,

I see. So, it's just another case of tunnel vision then.

Because you can't envision the utility of Forgery in your game, you can't envision the utility of Forgery in anyone else's game.

Just a reminder; MGT wasn't written for you and you alone. Incredible as it may seem, some other game master might actually need Forgery for a PC or NPC. The rules are supposed to cover as many bases as possible, hence the archaic weapons and other bits. Forgery has been a skill in every other version of the game, MGT should have included it too.

Mongoose implied differently by not including the skill. (I did ask about it during the playtest. So it is likely intentional.)

Then it's just another deliberate screw up by Mongoose much like their idiotic Star Fleet Battles Lite riff on ship combat. Omitting forgery is one thing, choosing not to include it is something else entirely.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[casquilho]

You said "So until Mongoose says different, " well, they did eliminate #1 since, during the playtest, it was in one of my playtest reports.

#2 or #3 are thus the obvious option.

Ah, I understand now. That is what I get for doing the forum well past my bed time.

Yes, then #1 will only show up again if Mongoose includes it in the Rogue book they are doing down the line. Until then Options #2 & #3 are what is left.

Thanks

Daniel

 

[aramis]

Bill:
1) watch your tone... it's getting rather unpleasant

2) It is not a screw up. It is a change in perspective. There are fewer overlapping skills in MongT than in CT/MegaT.

 

[Apparition]

Apparition,

I see. So, it's just another case of tunnel vision then.

Because you can't envision the utility of Forgery in your game, you can't envision the utility of Forgery in anyone else's game.

You are an angy person arnt you....are you even reading my posts....I said all of it was my opinion and in no way impiled anyone else had to agree. This is a forum where ideas are exchanged for the betterment of the "game". If you dont like my ideas, that is your right...and you dont have to use them. But I would appreciate you stop the insulting tones if you cant offer a better idea other then my ideas are stupid.......Have fun.

 

[Whipsnade]

You are an angy person arnt you...

Apparition,

Angry at myself mostly, for failing to get the point across.

...are you even reading my posts....I said all of it was my opinion and in no way impiled anyone else had to agree.

The opinions I read in your posts were that:

1) Forgery now was easier thanks to technology; hence your example, and that forgery would easier in the future.

2) That, because forgery was easier, there was no need for a discrete skill for it; hence your suggestion that Computer, Art, or other skills could model any forgery attempt somehow.

3) And finally that, because forgery was easy and could be handled by other skills, MGT was correct in removing it from Traveller's skill pool.

My opinions on the subject were:

A) That you have no real idea how forgery was accomplished in the past or is accomplished presently and so have no real idea about how it may be accomplished in the future.

B) That completely successful forgery - in any number of media - did exist, does still exist, and will continue to exist regardless of technology.

C) That, because forgery is a mixture of deeply expert and extremely focussed knowledge across several disciplines, handling forgery merely as a subset or default of some other skill or skills is entirely incorrect; i.e. not all art students can fake a Picasso and not all computer users can hack.

D) And finally that Mongoose analysed the situation incorrectly, assumed that forgery was too narrow a skill, assumed that it could be handled as a default or overlap, and then screwed up by not including Forgery in MGT. (Furthermore Mongoose's "explanation" for this fails even cursory examination because MGT does include as narrow a skill as Art/Sculpture.)

But I would appreciate you stop the insulting tones if you cant offer a better idea other then my ideas are stupid.

I'll apologize for what you consider to be an insulting tone. However, I will also assert that not only is my "idea" is better than your's, but that my understanding of forgery and how it can be used in the game is deeper than your's. Of course, YMMV.

The lack of a Forgery skill in MGT is not simply a "change in perspective" as Aramis suggests. Instead, it is a fundamental mistake and should be corrected in the errata.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[CosmicGamer]

C) That, because forgery is a mixture of deeply expert and extremely focussed knowledge across several disciplines, handling forgery merely as a subset or default of some other skill or skills is entirely incorrect; i.e. not all art students can fake a Picasso and not all computer users can hack.

I believe you are using an example that is counter to what your opinion is.

"not all computer users can hack"

Both in life and in the game all computer users can try to hack. Some computer users may succeed, some may fail. As I've stated before, the rules in MGT have hacking as an example for one of the uses of Computer skill. There is a difficulty rating a die roll and modifiers.

Your opinion appears to be that forgery should be it's own skill. If it was, would possessing the skill guarantee success? No.

You are correct, "not all art students can fake a Picasso and not all computer users can hack" but not all forgers can create a fake security card is true too.

I'm not sure what your statement is trying to convey. Maybe you could try clearing it up for me.

 

[Klaus]

Apparition,

Angry at myself mostly, for failing to get the point across.



The opinions I read in your posts were that:

1) Forgery now was easier thanks to technology; hence your example, and that forgery would easier in the future.

2) That, because forgery was easier, there was no need for a discrete skill for it; hence your suggestion that Computer, Art, or other skills could model any forgery attempt somehow.

3) And finally that, because forgery was easy and could be handled by other skills, MGT was correct in removing it from Traveller's skill pool.

My opinions on the subject were:

A) That you have no real idea how forgery was accomplished in the past or is accomplished presently and so have no real idea about how it may be accomplished in the future.

B) That completely successful forgery - in any number of media - did exist, does still exist, and will continue to exist regardless of technology.

C) That, because forgery is a mixture of deeply expert and extremely focussed knowledge across several disciplines, handling forgery merely as a subset or default of some other skill or skills is entirely incorrect; i.e. not all art students can fake a Picasso and not all computer users can hack.

D) And finally that Mongoose analysed the situation incorrectly, assumed that forgery was too narrow a skill, assumed that it could be handled as a default or overlap, and then screwed up by not including Forgery in MGT. (Furthermore Mongoose's "explanation" for this fails even cursory examination because MGT does include as narrow a skill as Art/Sculpture.)



I'll apologize for what you consider to be an insulting tone. However, I will also assert that not only is my "idea" is better than your's, but that my understanding of forgery and how it can be used in the game is deeper than your's. Of course, YMMV.

The lack of a Forgery skill in MGT is not simply a "change in perspective" as Aramis suggests. Instead, it is a fundamental mistake and should be corrected in the errata.


Have fun,
Bill

A) Not sure how you're able to claim this given no evidence either way. In fact there is no evidence to say that you know what it takes to forge stuff either. I do know a little, at least in terms of forging art and digital media.

B) of course it does/will, but that technology is increasingly used for both the documentation itself and to produce forged items.

C) Exactly - Forgery is a mixture of skills, not a skill by itself. In fact, it's lots of skills applied in a narrow way. By the same token as not all art students can forge a Picasso, a skilled forger of passports won't be able to forge CCTV evidence of a crime. Totally different skill sets. Your version of Forgery implies skills in art, computers, admin etc etc. It would require prequisite skills, and that's not how MGT, or any version of Traveller, actually works.

And btw, anyone with a decent level of Computer skill probably would be able to hack, and any painter with a decent level of skill probably could forge a Picasso.

D) Forgery is not a narrow skill per se, it is lots of different skills used narrowly. A direct comparison of Art/Sculpture is totally wrong, as Art is one of the few cascade style skills in MGT. Someone with Art/Sculpture 2 would also have Art/any 0, so could draw, paint, and make holographs (and that is fairly close to the way it works in RL). A person with Forgery would need 0 level skills in Admin, Computer, and Art, which breaks the system, and since Deception covers all this kind of stuff it is already figured in.

And I would assert your final statements are totally fallacious. Your understanding of forgery is at best no better than Apparition's, and MGT has got it right - no errata required. BTW, have you actually read MGT? As it does not seem so.....

 

[CosmicGamer]

C) Exactly - Forgery is a mixture of skills, not a skill by itself. In fact, it's lots of skills applied in a narrow way. By the same token as not all art students can forge a Picasso, a skilled forger of passports won't be able to forge CCTV evidence of a crime. Totally different skill sets. Your version of Forgery implies skills in art, computers, admin etc etc. It would require prequisite skills, and that's not how MGT, or any version of Traveller, actually works.

Not arguing with or against you just, pointing out what I see as an error in your logic. Since forgery does exist as a skill in CT, that IS how at least some versions of Traveller work. I believe the person in question stated that Forgery was a skill in all the versions of Traveller - to them, it is how ALL other versions of Traveller work. (I only own some of CT and MGT)

 

[Klaus]

Not arguing with or against you just, pointing out what I see as an error in your logic. Since forgery does exist as a skill in CT, that IS how at least some versions of Traveller work. I believe the person in question stated that Forgery was a skill in all the versions of Traveller - to them, it is how ALL other versions of Traveller work. (I only own some of CT and MGT)

Sorry, to be clear I meant that no other version of Traveller has required pre-requisite skills, not that it realistically should have done in the case of Forgery. And I've always felt Forgery and Bribery were far, far too narrow/complex to be considered skills anyway.