casquilho
SOC-13
Well there you go. All ready done for us. You want something forged, find your self a rogue to do it. Look for a rogue who calls himself a "Forger" and play out the buy. Simple, Clean, and uses the rules as written.
Daniel
Forgery
- Thread starter CosmicGamer
- Start date
Daniel
Trade and Commerce.
Apparition,
A more accurate summation of my position could be My "way" is right cause it provides more options for GMs and players. Of course, while that is the intent behind my posts, those same posts have not stated that intent in anything resembling a clear manner.
This isn't about CT, which has it's own set of flaws primarily due to the fact that it is over 30 years old.
Precisely and every version of Traveller from CT to TNE, along with third party efforts like GT and T20, include a forgery skill. MGT stand alone. Designers across THREE DECADES and working in SEVERAL DIFFERENT RPG SYSTEMS all decided that a forgery skill should be part of the game except Mongoose.
MGT is the outlier here. You continue to insist on a logical argument from me and I believe that I have presented logical arguments. How about a logical argument from you beyond MGT is a change of perspective? Mongoose made the change and Mongoose should explain it, beyond stating the change was "poetic license" that is.
You do understand that I'm arguing in favor of providing the GM more options, don't you? MGT has removed forgery skill so it's no longer an option in MGT games. Here's the important part so I hope I can explain it clearly: If forgery skill was included in MGT, you as a GM could ignore it because you as a GM believe it isn't needed and there are better ways to spend skill points. However, if another GM believes forgery is needed, they and their players can't use it in MGT without first crafting a houserule because forgery doesn't exist in MGT. Including forgery in MGT doesn't impact your "Forgery skill/No" style of play in the slightest, but removing forgery from MGT does impact someone else's "Forgery skill/Yes" style of play.
This is about options. This is about giving a GM as many tools as possible, tools they then can use or ignore as they see fit.
Again, if you feel you've been insulted you have my apologies. That was not my intent. If you also feel the need to further discuss my tone the forum does allow for private messages and I'll be happy to respond to any you care to send.
Have fun,
Bill
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Just a note, Bribery is not a skill in MGT either.
I don't think this is true. Here is one of my comments:
I think that any activity a character takes that doesn't fall within the listed skills can still be taken; the GM just needs to be more creative in determining what skills and/or characteristics to use. In fact, it possibly gives the GM more options since he isn't stuck saying "well, even though you were an officer and got promoted every single one of your 6 terms you are a terrible leader and administrator" because in CT only someone with above average education (+8) can roll on the advanced education table and gain Admin and Leader skills (I'm not using supplemental career tables for this example).
I think it would be interesting to play a game where there are no skills at all. Character generation would be rolling characteristics and then you would create a background history for your character. The GM would determine the difficulty of any task based on your characters background. Now THATS "providing the GM more options" than restricting him to skills like forgery, no? (I also like this concept of no skills because as a campaign goes on it becomes part of the charactors history and the GM can adjust the difficulty of tasks accordingly. No need for messy rules about gaining new skills. You could describe your character in detail instead of rolling characteristics too. This is Hardcore Rplaying!)
I'm going to have a rules burning bonfire
Hey, no fair! They limited me to 4 icon images. Lets burn the rules for this website too!!
ok, how was that so far for a rant?
Some people have more imagination that others, some need more detailed rules than others, some need more detailed skills than others, some like more detailed combat, more detailed ship building...
My point is that some people play the game differently and will never see things the same way as others. There is nothing wrong with this at all.
Feel free to voice your opinions but please exercise some control and don't go door to door trying to convert people to your beliefs.
[/rant]
Disclaimer: This was meant to be a lighthearted rant not intended to offend anyone. I was just frustrated over another thread getting off track with, IMO, too much of a CT vs MGT battle. Getting peoples opinions on different versions of Traveller is fine, but as the original creator of this thread it was meant to be a discussion of MGT only and how to deal with forgery within the rules as they were written.
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Apparition
SOC-12
It was their perogative to change their perspective, but I am not a mongoose representative and cannot give you a reason why they changed it.
On the flip side of that, an GM worth their dice should be able top devise a skill that the game doesn't include. In every gaming system I have ever played, and that begins with Gary Gygax's vision of D&D, I have always found things the game left out that I felt was needed. Improvisation is a must for any gamer. Not to mention that there are other skills that can be adapted for the use of the skill that has started this...what is it now...7 page debate on a very minor skill. This game have a very small skill list compared to other games, whether I agree with that or not is not the issue.....I saw no forgery skill, I came up with an idea why it would not be needed, and I pressed on.
I feel my logic is plausible, I like my idea, I respect that others will believe differently....but MGT is perfectly playable with or without that skill, and if it does show up in someones game, plenty of ideas have been layed out to make due.
CosmicGamer,
Here, let me fix that statement for you...
"... IMO, too much of an every other version of Traveller vs MGT battle."
There, that both reads better and is more accurate.
Have fun,
Bill
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
A skill in my MGT book is Artisan (Writing). Is that what you meant or are you suggesting a new skill? Might as well join the "create a Forgery skill" group if your suggesting a new skill...
I was thinking of going back and editing that before your suggestion but since the following statement says "Getting peoples opinions on different versions of Traveller ...." I left it. I think you got what a meant.
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I'm afraid I must disagree with this logic.
Adding more rules does not give ref's more options and that idea, pushed to extremes, means that all possible 'skills' should be included because that would give refs still more options.
More rules actually takes options away from refs because players will demand that the rules be followed as opposed to simply going along with what the ref says. This is one of the reasons some folk say CT is the best version of Trav; it relies more of the player's and ref's imagination and spontaneous play than simply obeying a rulebook.
As much as I love rules and tinker with rules in my solitaire play, were I to ever run Trav again, I'd go as rules lite as possible...more like SJG's "Toon" rules even.
MGT has its own quirks, like every version. If the designer decided not to include something, so be it. Like the classic CT, the ref can figure it out, and rules lawyers can go bite persimmons instead.
Ishmael,
Do me a favor. Stand in front of a mirror and repeat the statement I quoted above. I want to see if you can keep a straight face.
More rules doesn't mean more options? Sure.
Any model when pushed to extremes breaks down.
Gee, and yet CT, which relies more on the GM's and players' imaginations, includes both Forgery and Bribery. Go figure.
Have fun,
Bill
Ishmael,
Do me a favor. Stand in front of a mirror and repeat the statement I quoted above. I want to see if you can keep a straight face.
More rules doesn't mean more options? Sure.
Any model when pushed to extremes breaks down.
Gee, and yet CT, which relies more on the GM's and players' imaginations, includes both Forgery and Bribery. Go figure.
I did say it in front of a mirror and was able to keep a straight face quite easily.
You should try it and see if you can avoid a condescending attitude whenever someone shares a differing opinion than you.
actually the same number of options exists regardless of the amount of rules.
but if a ref needs rules to be written so he can figure out what to do..... <shrug>
*most* models do break down when pushed to extremes, yet your model, in this instance ( more rules=more game options ) breaks too easily. Rules in general tend to put limits on possible actions and the conditions in which those allowed actions may be taken, not expand upon them
So far, your biggest argument that forgery must be included seems to be "gee, CT has it, therefore all forms of Traveller must have it".
Mongtrav isn't CT.
Hopefully, refs are clever enough to make rules up on the fly, because it relies on player's and ref's imagination. Not that you agree because you would demand to add every possible skill under the sun and add ultra-gearhead rules to make stuff for the skill to be used on, etc etc. , because more rules mean more options (??). A strange position for a fan of CT to take.
Have fun,
Richard
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
I'd just add a Forgery skill and allow it to be substituted when the character receives other criminal-type skills.
Seems an odd omission, considering the smuggler/tramp freighter trope which is now pretty much a "classic" sci-fi trope.
IMHO, the skill list should include the majority of things that PCs can be expected to want to do. And if there is no skill listed for a particular activity, then the rules should tell you which skills/tasks are applicable.
Forgery seems to me to be one of those core things that we would expect PCs to want to do.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Seems to me that his argument is "Forgery is (a) something that PCs can reasonably be expected to want to do in a Traveller campaign; (b) a skill in every previous version of Traveller; and (c) is not included in MGT. Since the MGT core rules should cover the typical activities PCs will need to do, its omission seems to be a mistake."
If that is something like his argument, I'd say it's a pretty good one. Simply asserting that MGT is a "new" approach does not get us very far.
Funny enough, just opened the MGT book, and under admin:
Deception seems to be an interpersonal skill, not a product skill. eg: "TK-421, why are you not at your post?" (Han taps helmet)...
Under Classic and Mega, I never let forgery stand alone. It was always used with the relevant skill. So forging documents was Admin and Forgery; artwork was Artisan and Forgery; Computer records were Computer and forgery. The MT rules however, show only one example, forging a credit note: Formidable, Forgery, Dex, 1day. Such an approach was not "rules-congruent" with TNE nor T4, where all tasks were one stat+ one skill.
But, given that getting forged papers passed is an Admin task (not a forgery task like was used in some MT adventures), I'd say they rolled it into admin, at least for documents.
YMMV, and Bill's quite obviously does.
Note that this task is the one used to get a forgery passed as valid. You have the papers, and either they are not right, or are not valid, but appear so on their face...MGT CRB 52 said:
Deception seems to be an interpersonal skill, not a product skill. eg: "TK-421, why are you not at your post?" (Han taps helmet)...
Under Classic and Mega, I never let forgery stand alone. It was always used with the relevant skill. So forging documents was Admin and Forgery; artwork was Artisan and Forgery; Computer records were Computer and forgery. The MT rules however, show only one example, forging a credit note: Formidable, Forgery, Dex, 1day. Such an approach was not "rules-congruent" with TNE nor T4, where all tasks were one stat+ one skill.
But, given that getting forged papers passed is an Admin task (not a forgery task like was used in some MT adventures), I'd say they rolled it into admin, at least for documents.
YMMV, and Bill's quite obviously does.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
I dunno. If I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that Admin = Forgery. A better reading of this seems to me to be that you make an Admin roll to avoid close scrutiny. If you fail, then the quality of your forged documents will be tested.
I don't think that Admin is a very good analog for one's ability to create forgeries...
A reasonable approach, but it also makes Forgery by itself worthless. I always assumed that the skill came with a subset of Admin (for instance) to allow Forgery of documents, a subset of Computer to allow Forgery of electronic data, etc.
However, your approach suggests that a particularly high level of Admin might give a bonus to a Forgery roll (at the very least, it might allow one to Forge documents that he lacks any specimens of -- the character has processed so many Form 10-0045's that he can reconstruct them from memory).
At the minimum, it suggests that one can make a simple Forgery task a little more nuanced.
TBeard,
That's my position in a nutshell. And stated much clearly than I've been able to do so.
This is an errata issue and not a "Make up a houserule", "We reimagined the game", or "Too many options spoil the broth" issue. Mongoose screwed up and left out something of MGT that the designers of every other version of Traveller rules felt should be included.
Acting the role of Mongoose cheerleaders and buying into their excuse that it's not a problem at all is not constructive. SJGames has taken the same attitude towards GT:Behind the Claw since it was published. They too refuse to admit that a mistake was made and rely on ever increasingly desperate "answers" to "explain" away BtC. Just this year Paul Chapman even suggested that BtC purchasers shouldn't have thought they could use the book for Traveller at all.
Just as importantly, while we shouldn't act as Mongoose cheerleaders, neither should we act as MGT's undertakers. The playtest documents reveal a very servicable game that can both built built on and corrected. That last bit is the most important. Errata is important in any game and admitting the need for errata is most important of all. Mistakes get made all the time and the refusal to admit to mistakes puts one a very dark path indeed.
Quit acting like fanboys and begin acting like knowledgable consumers, consumers whose needs should be met.
Have fun,
Bill
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tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Yep, I agree. The good news is that Mongoose has seemed willing to fix problems as they arise. The bad news is that too many MGT fans see any criticism of MGT as a personal affront and react accordingly. In such matters, I think they'd be well advised to give Mongoose the chance to acknowledge the mistake and fix it, before getting too personally invested. Because the other side of Mongoose's willingness to fix mistakes is that overly invested fans get thrown under the bus.
Agreed. And personally, I don't care to do business with people who insult my intelligence...
Idiot.
I've found that you can expend FAR more effort propping up weak excuses than if you simply acknowledge the error and move on.
Absolutely agree.
<knocks on wood> I really think that Mongoose will correct this error.
They should -- I can't see any reasonable justification for the core skills set not including Forgery skill.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Seems to me that Forgery (a) requires a sufficiently sophisticated set of specialized competencies; and (b) is something many (if not most) Traveller groups will want to do at some point. If I am correct, then some methodology should be provided. MGT does not provide a skill and AFAIK, doesn't explain how to use other skills/attributes to accomplish it. (I do not agree with your interpretation of Bureacracy as including Forgery). Personally, I think that a separate skill is warranted (though I'd be willing to consider including it in a Crime megaskill).
Oddly, I've never felt that Bribery deserved its own skill. It always seemed to me to be a function of the amount offered and the degree of persuasiveness (personally, I'd use Carousing for that aspect). <shrug> Different strokes, etc.
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I've always treated bribery as a perception and interpretation skill, and not a skill at delivering the bribe. Kind of knowing whom to bribe and how much, and to recognize the cues for graft.
See, the only reason I ever bothered with Forgery skill is that it was in the rules. I never much agreed with it.
Forging documents, Admin. Forging Art, Art. Forging file timestamps, Computer. Forging the needed red tap permissions endorsements, Bureacracy or Admin. Forging an ancient document, History or relevant language (use lower).
See, the only reason I ever bothered with Forgery skill is that it was in the rules. I never much agreed with it.
Forging documents, Admin. Forging Art, Art. Forging file timestamps, Computer. Forging the needed red tap permissions endorsements, Bureacracy or Admin. Forging an ancient document, History or relevant language (use lower).
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