General goods

[aramis]

Hans, with the majority of commercial ships being J1 or J2, there is going to be a LOT of tramp traffic through Forboldn. (There's a lot between Regina and Efate - several thousand tons per week per GTFT.) The local credits may be worthless, but the goods are not. Raw materials are raw materials. The locals would get next-to-nothing for them, but they're likely to be collated into one or a small handful of collection points.

For a world on the mains, it's unlikely that their local coinage is truly valueless -That TL4 coin buys a lot of on-world comforts - and a lot of raw materials, which can be sold on to passing traders.

But if going the "TL4 Credits are worthless" route, your whole premise falls apart. There is only goods value to be had - raw materials (wood, ore, food) - and no reason to bother even trying to sell the lot locally - better to just dump it at the port for whatever raw materials one can get.

Also, for J2 between Efate and Regina, Forboldn is one of the 2 J2 layovers. Bypassing it adds an extra jump. Given the topology of jumpspace as a given, it will get a significant amount of traffic. Enough to justify a second currency circulation - CrImps, CrReg, &/or CrEfate - amongst the upper class landowners.



Also note: Many people presume the trade system is always in CrImp.

 

[rancke]

Hans, with the majority of commercial ships being J1 or J2, there is going to be a LOT of tramp traffic through Forboldn. (There's a lot between Regina and Efate - several thousand tons per week per GTFT.)

Tsk tsk tsk, Wil, I bet you thought I would rise to the bait of the J1 traffic. And so did I, until I realized that it didn't matter. Through trade won't affect the Forboldian economy one whit, because ships carrying through trade apparently doesn't even touch down on Forboldn. Or if they do, they don't interact with the economy (They may not even buy unrefined fuel at the Class E starport). Their holds are full of goods going between Regina and Efate. Only the stuff that goes between Regina and Forboldn and between Efate and Forboldn actually counts, and that amounts to 50-100T tramp trade per week.

The local credits may be worthless, but the goods are not. Raw materials are raw materials. The locals would get next-to-nothing for them, but they're likely to be collated into one or a small handful of collection points.

They are. The one on the Rubatj Plateau is owned by the store owner. Excuse me, Store Owner.

For a world on the mains, it's unlikely that their local coinage is truly valueless -That TL4 coin buys a lot of on-world comforts - and a lot of raw materials, which can be sold on to passing traders.

I'm going by the canonical exchange rate rules. Even so, I'm going to stretch a point and make a Forboldian tjauash worth around 0.01 CrImp.

But if going the "TL4 Credits are worthless" route, your whole premise falls apart. There is only goods value to be had - raw materials (wood, ore, food) - and no reason to bother even trying to sell the lot locally - better to just dump it at the port for whatever raw materials one can get.

Which is why I'm going to have a warehouse full of barter items.

Also, for J2 between Efate and Regina, Forboldn is one of the 2 J2 layovers. Bypassing it adds an extra jump. Given the topology of jumpspace as a given, it will get a significant amount of traffic. Enough to justify a second currency circulation - CrImps, CrReg, &/or CrEfate - amongst the upper class landowners.

It's true that by Book2 and (much worse) MgT rules, J2 ships are going to be used in preferrence to J3 ships on the Regina to Efate run. So it appears that the Regina Subsector is located in an HG/MT/T4 universe where J2 and J3 are competitive, because Forboldn's and Whanga's starports clearly imply that they are backwater worlds with little or no customers for refined and unrefined fuel.

(It's true that Knorbes' Class E starport becomes a puzzle under that theory. )

Be that as it may, I see Forboldn as a real backwater, not a world on a busy trade route.

Also note: Many people presume the trade system is always in CrImp.

I don't. I presume the trade system is rather simple, in the non-complimentary sense.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Hans, local food and cycling the air can go a LONG way to making the second (and third) jumps much more pleasant.

It's a good reason to land - for at least a day - even if not otherwise trading. Fresh fruit, fresh air, and fresh linens...

Which nothing in non-GURPS canon seems to indicate not being available at Class E. (nothing else but trade goods seems to be.) After all, TL3 can manufacture to order CO2 scrubber compounds. TL4 historically had some. Fresh linens are TL1. Fresh food is TL0 if the atmosphere/ecosphere is liveable. Fresh water is TL1 (for pots to sterilize it, and or stills). The ship itself can pressurize oxygen. Passengers can stretch their legs.

It is compelling as a day-trip while in system, even if the holds are full; far more so if they're not, and if trade prices are in CrLocal, inexcusably bad business to not stop. Those ships with any empty cargo space dump a few hundred credits and get several thousand plus stretch the LS.

Plus, those J1 and J2 freighters need to refuel. It is faster to land on the world than skim the giant. Safer, too.

So, apply a little logic. There will be a good bit of traffic. And a surprising amount of off-world goods flowing out for a much larger amount of local raw materials.

The GTFT BTN for the Regina-Forboldn pair is 7.0... 50Td - 100Td per week. That's a full freighter. Another for Efate, as it's also a 7.0 trade pair. That's a couple million GURPS $ per year. (Which are not Traveller Cr in value - the GURPS $ is explicitly based upon the 1985 US$, rather than the stronly evidenced but not explicit 1977 US$ basis for the CrImp - it should be about G$1=CrImp1.6.)
Ukae-Forboldn is a 6.0... 5-10 Td per week.

Forboldn has, per GURPS Traveller, several hundred tons of trade per week.

Mind you, I disagree with the specifics of the GTFT calculations (They are fine in principle, but lack a TL effect, and underpenalize for distance), but for the short ranges and type of environment, I find them only off in magnitude, by a small amount.

GT, which I know you are fond of as a "reasonable resource", says there's a steady stream of trade.

 

[rancke]

Hans, local food and cycling the air can go a LONG way to making the second (and third) jumps much more pleasant.

It's a good reason to land - for at least a day - even if not otherwise trading. Fresh fruit, fresh air, and fresh linens...

Which nothing in non-GURPS canon seems to indicate not being available at Class E. (nothing else but trade goods seems to be.) After all, TL3 can manufacture to order CO2 scrubber compounds. TL4 historically had some. Fresh linens are TL1. Fresh food is TL0 if the atmosphere/ecosphere is liveable. Fresh water is TL1 (for pots to sterilize it, and or stills). The ship itself can pressurize oxygen. Passengers can stretch their legs.

You're seizing on a minor part of my argument and completely ignoring the major bit. Which is that even if these ships do land in Forboldn's starport, they're not going to interact significantly with the Forboldian economy, because they're transporting goods between Regina and Efate. Only whatever goods they are transporting between Forboldn and respectively Regina and Efate matters to Forboldn.

It is compelling as a day-trip while in system, even if the holds are full; far more so if they're not, and if trade prices are in CrLocal, inexcusably bad business to not stop. Those ships with any empty cargo space dump a few hundred credits and get several thousand plus stretch the LS.

And what trade they do would come out of the total trade GTFT says there is between Forboldn and Regina/Efate.

Plus, those J1 and J2 freighters need to refuel. It is faster to land on the world than skim the giant. Safer, too.

Not according to the RAW, which allows gas giant refuelling safely and taking no time at all. :devil:

But you're right. Everything else being equal, refuelling on Forboldn would be preferable to gas giant refuelling. But when Forboldn is masked and the gas giant isn't, everything else isn't equal. If traffic really is as heavy as you say, there may even be a small refuelling station out near the gas giant, which makes it preferable any time the gas giant isn't masked.

So, apply a little logic. There will be a good bit of traffic. And a surprising amount of off-world goods flowing out for a much larger amount of local raw materials.

Or I could go with the canonical rules for exchange rates.

The GTFT BTN for the Regina-Forboldn pair is 7.0... 50Td - 100Td per week. That's a full freighter. Another for Efate, as it's also a 7.0 trade pair.

Yes, that's the same result I came to. That's the trade volume between any generic pair of worlds with a BTN of 7.0. That doesn't compel me to accept that every single pair of worlds with a BTN of 7.0 conforms to that. Nor am I convinced that a couple of million GURPS $ per year would shore up the Forboldian credit vis-a-vis the Imperial credit or by how much. How much do you think the exchange rate would be and how do you arrive at that figure?

That's a couple million GURPS $ per year. (Which are not Traveller Cr in value - the GURPS $ is explicitly based upon the 1985 US$, rather than the stronly evidenced but not explicit 1977 US$ basis for the CrImp - it should be about G$1=CrImp1.6.)

Regina has a GWP of 6.9 trillion GURPS $. Efate has a GWP of 68.7 trillion GURPS $. Forboldn has a GWP of 0.0013 trillion GURPS $. That's 5000 times less than Regina and 50,000 times less than Efate. What makes you think that a couple of million GURPS $ worth of trade would affect the exchange rate of Forboldn's local credit significantly?

Forboldn has, per GURPS Traveller, several hundred tons of trade per week.

Per GURPS Traveller, Forboldn has from 105-210 tons of trade per week. Not several hundred.

Mind you, I disagree with the specifics of the GTFT calculations (They are fine in principle, but lack a TL effect, and underpenalize for distance), but for the short ranges and type of environment, I find them only off in magnitude, by a small amount.

I don't mind giving Forboldn a couple of hundred tons of trade per week, but in general I would say that FT's calculations are likely to be off at the extremes of the system, and Forboldn could be argued to be one of the worlds that were close to the edge.

GT, which I know you are fond of as a "reasonable resource", says there's a steady stream of trade.

Not so steady, since by the FT RAW two thirds of the trade goes by tramp, which is per definition not regular. But that's by the way. Yes, unless Forboldn differs from your generic pop 6 world for some reason, it will have an average of two free traders per week visiting (one going each way). To which I have to ask, what does that prove?


Hans

 

[aramis]

Offworld shipping is a significant part of their economy, Hans.

Of that $1.3B, with several major systems with trade with it (Remembering that the listed base in the back of GTFT is NOT the total trade, but the factors are added together, and reduced for range and adjusted for dissimilar codes, to find the flow. And all the regina sector data is present, so any math errors are SJG's. The major trade partners are Ukae, Efate, Regina, and Roup, each generating over G$1M. Those two trade value 7 links are EACH 50-100 Td per week, and G$10M-50M. It's easier to justify it being spare space on through traffic rather than a single tramp doing a dedicated run. Interstellar trade is at least 1% of the GWP. (And, since I'm not iterating through all the worlds, just the closest few big ones, I'm very much lowballing the numbers.)

So, the PC's in your scenario are either bypassing the local system, or are replacing a major chunk of it; it's logical that they would be more interested in what they can swap for the cargo than for cash, but either way - something's gone awry if they're delivering direct and aren't the regulars. The local area is probably only 10-50 tons per month, if that - figure it as a separate Trade calculation based upon the local population using GTFT.

Using the GTFT numbers, the scenario should probably start with a contract by a Forboldn factor at regina, with a promise to pay clause and an earnest money down of 10% or so. They then get there to find the guy who's contracted is absent. The contract makes them obvious suspects in his disappearance (failure to pay them is motive), and if they don't release the goods, locals are upset. TL4 is also high enough to threaten the ship slightly - local defensive canon can (barely) penetrate, and dynamite. Plus, there's a raft of other suspects (his client base who prepaid for their goods).

Voila, instant western murder mystery with the PC's needing to solve it to clear themselves.

Several potential answers to the disappearance:

• Local agent has retired to another world with the money.
• Factor on regina triple sold the contract, and the second ship absconded with him
• local has gone into hiding after realizing that he's unable to pay
• local harvest shortage renders his end more expensive, and he's out negotiating hostilely, when a local shoots him in self-defense, then hides him.
• Local guy was the guy on regina - he'll pay, but he's running late, because he's cash-short.
• He's been killed/kidnapped by the regular supplier for bypassing the syndicate.

 

[rancke]

Offworld shipping is a significant part of their economy, Hans.

Assuming the generic figures apply to Forboldn (which I don't assume -- I think the geographical situation and the low tech level of the infrastructure will cause the figures to be lower), it amounts to about 2-3% of the GWP. Which may or may not be significant, but doesn't answer the question I asked: Why do you think that would affect the exchange rate and what do you think the exchange rate is if it's not 1:100?

It's easier to justify it being spare space on through traffic rather than a single tramp doing a dedicated run.

Four points:

1) Going by the tonnage/week table and the tonnage/day available for tramps table, 70% of the trade goes by tramp.

2) It doesn't matter if the trade goes by spare capacity on the through trade or by dedicated regular merchant. Only the trade that concerns Forboldn directly affects the Forboldian economy.

3) In the universe where I set my adventures, trade between Regina and Efate goes almost entirely via Knorbes.

4) There's a major discrepancy between the tonnage per year and the tonnage/week table. Tonnage per year is 1000-5000, which would be 20-100, not 50-100.

So, the PCs in your scenario are either bypassing the local system, or are replacing a major chunk of it; it's logical that they would be more interested in what they can swap for the cargo than for cash, but either way - something's gone awry if they're delivering direct and aren't the regulars.

Which is exactly what I write in the players' introduction I quoted in an earlier post. The PCs in my scenatio ARE bypassing the local system, because the local system has broken down, or at least glitched, leaving the community they plan to trade with low on goods and flush with barter items.

The local area is probably only 10-50 tons per month, if that - figure it as a separate Trade calculation based upon the local population using GTFT.

The PCs are carrying 12 or 13 4T containers with goods worth Cr10,000 per ton the average.

Using the GTFT numbers, the scenario should probably start with a contract by a Forboldn factor at regina, with a promise to pay clause and an earnest money down of 10% or so.

The scenario starts with the PCs following up on a tip hoping to make a killing. Leaving them unable to just pack up and go somewhere else (or rather, facing the prospect of having to sell at a discount instead of at a premium if they go elsewhere).

They then get there to find the guy who's contracted is absent.

They find that the only man with enough spare capital (in the form of bartable goods) is missing.

Voila, instant western murder mystery with the PC's needing to solve it to clear themselves.

Yes, that was my original idea.

Several potential answers to the disappearance:

• Local agent has retired to another world with the money.
• Factor on regina triple sold the contract, and the second ship absconded with him
• local has gone into hiding after realizing that he's unable to pay
• local harvest shortage renders his end more expensive, and he's out negotiating hostilely, when a local shoots him in self-defense, then hides him.
• Local guy was the guy on regina - he'll pay, but he's running late, because he's cash-short.
• He's been killed/kidnapped by the regular supplier for bypassing the syndicate.

Thanks for the suggestions. There are some interesting ideas there.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Giving them the tip, if they have access to the charts and a knowledge of the exchange rate system in Striker/JTAS, that should be encouragement enough to NOT get involved. Adventure over before it gets started.

Or, I should say, unless they have more than just a tip, I don't know any players who would take it other than with an nasty lot of snark about "Hook in cheek"... Without a legal obligation, most PC's I've run for would simply reject the tip. And a contract witnessed by a Reginan broker with a title would be plenty of assurance. If its a one-shot, a tip is a bad start - it's weak, counter-to-common-sense for them to get involved, and because of your setting interpretation choices, a bad move to follow up on it - but a contract has the color of enforceability and the security of being already committed to the sale. A contract starting in media res, as in, "the contract's already taken, now it's just buy the goods and go" has the advantage of the PC's having spent cash on the goods (They own and owe the goods), and a specified "must deliver to" and a clear motive as far as locals.

The 100:1 is uncanonical, but I've no issue with it at all - aside from the fact that whatever the exchange, it's going to be advantageous for shipping to stop over and extend the LS there. It's not likely to be bypassed, and there's no evidence of it being shadowed, ever.† And the odds are pretty good that it isn't shadowed much, if ever.

While jump shadowing by the star is canon, no canon adventure ever uses it that I've seen. So it's only important as a GM imposed gotcha or as a McGuffin to get them to pick a different system.


† Because no worlds have been defined canonically as to relative aspect for that purpose. It's outside the scope.

 

[rancke]

Giving them the tip, if they have access to the charts and a knowledge of the exchange rate system in Striker/JTAS, that should be encouragement enough to NOT get involved. Adventure over before it gets started.

Or, I should say, unless they have more than just a tip, I don't know any players who would take it other than with an nasty lot of snark about "Hook in cheek"... Without a legal obligation, most PC's I've run for would simply reject the tip. And a contract witnessed by a Reginan broker with a title would be plenty of assurance. If its a one-shot, a tip is a bad start - it's weak, counter-to-common-sense for them to get involved, and because of your setting interpretation choices, a bad move to follow up on it - but a contract has the color of enforceability and the security of being already committed to the sale. A contract starting in media res, as in, "the contract's already taken, now it's just buy the goods and go" has the advantage of the PC's having spent cash on the goods (They own and owe the goods), and a specified "must deliver to" and a clear motive as far as locals.

I guess our opinions on how plausible my lead-in is differ.

The 100:1 is uncanonical...

It's the average of the canonical 0:100 of TL4 worlds and the canonical 1:50 of TL5/Starport D worlds, so I think it's canonical enough for practical purposes. But perhaps I'll make it 1:50 instead.

... but I've no issue with it at all - aside from the fact that whatever the exchange, it's going to be advantageous for shipping to stop over and extend the LS there. It's not likely to be bypassed, and there's no evidence of it being shadowed, ever.† And the odds are pretty good that it isn't shadowed much, if ever.

Actually, Forboldn is never going to be shadowed[*], but it will be masked a bit less than half the time. With a G0 V star Forboldn's orbit is pretty close to the solar jump limit. But you're still belaboring something that I'm not insisting on. A couple of free traders per week isn't going to ruin my premise.

[*] Did I say shadowed? That was wrong. My mistake. I should have said masked.​

While jump shadowing by the star is canon, no canon adventure ever uses it that I've seen.

Agreed. I've said so myself several times.

So it's only important as a GM imposed gotcha or as a McGuffin to get them to pick a different system.

Actually, I think it's important that writers of adventures and system writeups get into the habit of including it in their deliberations. Not that I intend to do it in this adventure, since I don't think it adds anything and there's no reason why Forboldn has to be masked at the time, but I used it in one of my adventures for JTAS Online and I fully intend to use it in several upcoming adventures in other systems.


Hans

 

[Cryton]

While jump shadowing by the star is canon, no canon adventure ever uses it that I've seen. So it's only important as a GM imposed gotcha or as a McGuffin to get them to pick a different system.

Just FYI: Trarsus (CT Box set) uses it. In fact it has a handy little chart for use with 1G and 2G ships to show how long it takes to travel from the stars jump shadow to the world.

 

[Timerover51]

Just FYI: Trarsus (CT Box set) uses it. In fact it has a handy little chart for use with 1G and 2G ships to show how long it takes to travel from the stars jump shadow to the world.

Hmm, I will have to get out my Tarsus game and take a look at that. Tarsus is an interesting planet as it has such a high inclination to its axis.

Hans, local food and cycling the air can go a LONG way to making the second (and third) jumps much more pleasant.
It's a good reason to land - for at least a day - even if not otherwise trading. Fresh fruit, fresh air, and fresh linens...

The cruise ships that I have been on always pick up fresh fruit from the islands during a stop. Also may top off the fuel tanks, pump out the grey water tanks, pick up some fresh water, and let some of the crew stretch their legs. I can readily imagine a star ship doing pretty much the same thing if it stops at reasonably nice planet.

 

[rancke]

Just FYI: Trarsus (CT Box set) uses it. In fact it has a handy little chart for use with 1G and 2G ships to show how long it takes to travel from the stars jump shadow to the world.

Thank you. I had a vague notion that Tarsus and/or Beltstrike feature solar jump limits, but I never got around to checking.


Hans