GURPS Traveller: Sword Worlds. Is it canonical?
- Thread starter robject
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By definition, being part of the GURPS Traveller line makes it part of the Alternate Traveller Universe. So any disagreements between it and other sources, say MgT Sword Worlds or whatnot, the G:T material defers to the OTU material as OTU canon.
Now as far as the ATU, it rules as king.
Now as far as the ATU, it rules as king.
There's also the issue that, based upon what we've seen of Marc's view of the OTU, Hans' expressed views on the OTU are wrong on a fundamental level. (He's not the only one.)
The question thus becomes, how much does that affect his work on Sword Worlds?
Not having read it yet, I can't begin to assess that. I'd say that Agent has resulted in a new level of canonicity, above the 3 already extant:
Don's Hermeneutic doesn't handle the issue well.
The question thus becomes, how much does that affect his work on Sword Worlds?
Not having read it yet, I can't begin to assess that. I'd say that Agent has resulted in a new level of canonicity, above the 3 already extant:
- Novels by Marc Miller
- OTU as described in the GDW/IG/FFG games
- ATU described in GURPS Traveller
- Decanonized materials included for wargaming use
- OTU novels not by Marc
- MGT
- Intentional Retcons
- Unitentional retcons
- Tech incompatible with the OTU
- "There is no OTU"
- "We didn't get the license but we're doing it anyway" Star Wars and 40K inclusions
- 3rd party supplements
Don's Hermeneutic doesn't handle the issue well.
Agreed, it is pretty hard (not impossible, but pretty darn hard) to reconcile the vision of AoE with vision of the OTU as it was presented elsewhere. Heck I reminds me more of old Judges Guild or Paranoia Press supplements than anything else in some ways. This isn't a criticism, I like the new vision, perhaps even more than the "old" vision - and I'm well used to canon-conflict at this point.
D.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I'm hoping that Marc re-writes the rebellion etc - Bland knows about reality manipulation now.
Or perhaps the rebellion, virus and the empress wave lead to something unexpected...
Or perhaps the rebellion, virus and the empress wave lead to something unexpected...
Moo hoo haa haa haaaaa.
(What does an Aslan laughing sound like? Meeee yow wow wow?)
In my games, it's a purr...
LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
It is undoubtedly within Marc's prerogatives to retconn the Rebellion, but personally I think that would do more damage to Traveller than any ills of the OTU, either real or perceived.
Once you "just a dream" it, you'll never be on as sure footing again. The temptation will always be there to use resets, and ultimately the integrity of the setting will suffer.
Noting the arguments for the last (checks the year of copyright for GT) 18 years over whether or not GT was the OTU, where the divergence point really is, and whether or not the GT authors failed to make due diligence...
Yeah, I can see your point.
Which brings up the whole issue of GT canonicity. Which DonM spoke of often.
When Don checked material against canon - he checked against GT as well. Only when GT disagreed with other sources was it an issue. If Only GT mentioned X, it's canon. If anything else disagreed with the GT version...
And Don's hermeneutic has issues with clear "Head up WHERE?" moments, like the AHL having Transverse Decks in Mongoose 2E HG... and then claims it was a retcon from the "original intent", when Marc's hand drawn clearly indicates otherwise...
In many ways, it's easier to think of Traveller as a bunch of different timelines all of which share some common features, rather than one cohesive timeline.
It's also important to remember that the OTU didn't get rolling until 1979.
Simple answer: Mostly yes and somewhat no.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Note I said re-write, not remove.
How did Bland let the assassination take place, or did he have a part in it?
How did Bland let the assassination take place, or did he have a part in it?
My money is on Bland having instigated it.
LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
Either way, sweeping changes in the OTU are probably ill-advised.
Though there is certainly plenty that can be clarified. For instance, we have an imperial system where various emperors can use replacements of some sort (doubles, robots, clones). But there's no plan for what to do if the "emperor" dies in public? What if some clone has a heart attack swinging champagne against the hull of the newest Tigress?
The idea that there's no way to verify Strephon is Strephon (aside from an intense look encapsulating hundreds of years of imperial dignity in Arrival Vengeance) is really quite silly.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Remember though the rebelion has been retconned at least twice.
Originally it was Strephon gunned down and the 'Real Strephon' faction was lead by a body double/clone/robot
this was retconned due to fan whining
Second retcon was the inclusion of IRIS and then its removal in Survival Margin - you could split this into two distinct retcons.
Originally it was Strephon gunned down and the 'Real Strephon' faction was lead by a body double/clone/robot
this was retconned due to fan whining
Second retcon was the inclusion of IRIS and then its removal in Survival Margin - you could split this into two distinct retcons.
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Until Bob wakes up Emily, Larry, Darryl and Darryl are real.:rofl:
er,
Until Mr. Miller rewrites or makes a public statement against (private statements are just hearsay), Virus, TNE, and 1248 are OTU.
Yea, that's it that, that's the ticket.
er,
Until Mr. Miller rewrites or makes a public statement against (private statements are just hearsay), Virus, TNE, and 1248 are OTU.
Yea, that's it that, that's the ticket.
I read GURPS Traveller: Sword Worlds awhile ago. And it bored me. Egads how boring!!
But, others whom I trusted (Don I think was among them) had no problems with GT:SW, so I implicitly have a high view of it. I believe Hans behaved himself with that book. I could be wrong.
You go all over the place with that --- there's so much good discussion material in that post.
Madness to Don's Method
Don was ruthlessly methodically boringly tedious with his order and method thing. Obsessed, he was. This is where he became a true pain in the ass. He really was the best sort of personality for things like timelines and Canon Law. Maksim meanwhile is an excellent Collator, exhibiting some of that ruthless attention to detail that drives me nuts. Thank goodness there are people like that.
Don was adamant about giving publications the benefit of the doubt, because "we're all in the same boat" and any source can enrich Traveller. Of course that sounds like a terribly slow boring way to do things, but that's because I'm not details-oriented.
Don Ran the Nuthouse
Marc would unintentionally drive Don nuts by making sweeping statements about changing something, or doing something in a way that was not particularly tedious enough for Don. For example, not using formula to determine orbits drove Don mad. Instead, Marc did it really rather carelessly. And that sort of thing drives Don nuts. It would have been hilarious if it didn't truly grieve Don's heart.
I, on the other hand, would say things just to see Don explode. But he was too cool a cucumber to explode. He'd get all haughty and dismissive in his actuarial way, and turn the tables on me. He knew I didn't have any real pull to make stupid things happen. But he didn't want Marc getting any crazy ideas, either. Can't have the old man signing blank checks to infidel con artists, after all.
Unnecessary Redundancy
Don was more valuable to Marc than I am. Don's advice was spot-on about timings, announcements, ERRATA, editing, organization, planning, not to mention the Timeline. I am more of an ideas guy, and unfortunately Marc is as well, and his ideas produced this little game that spawned a small company and a career and stuff, so I'm sort of running the Department of Redundancy Department. Marc likes to bounce ideas off of me, but my critiques come from ideas, not practicalities. Don was Practical plus Thorough. His thoroughness made him slow but accurate, and his practicality made him even more valuable.
Traveller IS Parallel Timelines
Finally, Traveller is surely a set of parallel timelines -- the Lorenverse makes that plain. Heck, we could think of eras as modules, nearly as swappable as the rules mechanics. Don't like Book 2? Lots of options. Don't like Virus? Lots of options. Build your own timeline from all the options granted, or roll your own replacement...
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Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I go by a fairly simple rule, I will accept as authoritative Marc's writings when not terribly inconsistent, give some cognizance to the Keith brothers works, and pretty much ignore any non-GDW/Imperium Games/Far Futures stuff.
There are enough problems reconciling all of those without adding to it.
Case in point is Attack Squadron: Roswell, using Mongoose Traveller. Reconcile the Aliens in the module with anything in the OTU or the rest of canon. I should note that I really, really LIKE that setting, and bought Mongoose Traveller just to be able to understand and use it.
However, contemplate what happens to the OTU timeline if the US gets interstellar travel in the 1950s. Remember, the USS Nautilus, the first nuclear-powered ship, sent the message "Underway on nuclear power" in January of 1955, so a power source would have been available, along with testing nuclear fusion bombs for an understanding of fusion power.
There are enough problems reconciling all of those without adding to it.
Case in point is Attack Squadron: Roswell, using Mongoose Traveller. Reconcile the Aliens in the module with anything in the OTU or the rest of canon. I should note that I really, really LIKE that setting, and bought Mongoose Traveller just to be able to understand and use it.
However, contemplate what happens to the OTU timeline if the US gets interstellar travel in the 1950s. Remember, the USS Nautilus, the first nuclear-powered ship, sent the message "Underway on nuclear power" in January of 1955, so a power source would have been available, along with testing nuclear fusion bombs for an understanding of fusion power.
