OTU Only: Gypsy Queen Class Fast Merchant, LBB2, 199Td, J26GP7

[Spinward Flow]

Could you explain your reasoning for ignoring this?

Honoring it would be inconvenient ... so ...



My favorite excuse would be that because LBB5.80 "allows" power plants to go above factor: 6, that means that wibbly wobbly timey wimey LBB2 does too!



It's exploitative munchkinism at its core, so it doesn't have to be intellectually consistent (and ditching intellectual honesty is a Feature™, not a Bug).

A m/3 isn't really large enough to support Double Fire, you need Target (1), Predict (~1), Gunner Interact (1), Return Fire (1), as well as Double Fire (4), and perhaps Select (~1) for a total of ~8 Processing to be really effective. That means a m/4 at least.

If you want to be able to maneuver on top of all that (among other things), you're going to need to move into the realm of Model/5+ to get sufficient CPU to be running ALL the programs you really want for a combat heavy design ...

 

[atpollard]

It's a first version, it was miraculous enough to have any design system at all in 1977...
It should have been weeded out by LBB2'81, but wasn't.

The whole FUEL is a "cluster" ... the fact that a Power Plant B requires 10 dT of fuel in a 400 dTon ship, 20 dT of fuel in a 200 dTon ship and 40 dt of fuel in a 100 dT ship is a "feature" that should not have survived past the first draft of the 1977 rules ... let alone still be part of the The Traveller Book in 1882 and Starter Traveller in 1983. Same PP, but the smaller the HULL you place it in, the more FUEL it consumes

 

[atpollard]

If you want to be able to maneuver on top of all that (among other things), you're going to need to move into the realm of Model/5+ to get sufficient CPU to be running ALL the programs you really want for a combat heavy design ...

I thought that "Gunner Interact" and "Return Fire" were conceptually an "either/or" decision.
EITHER the gunner controls when and where to fire OR the computer just shoots back at whoever shoots at you (so the PILOT) can worry about other things.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Could you explain your reasoning for ignoring this?

I looked at LBB2'81, p13:

Correlating hull size with drive letter indicates drive potential. For maneuver drives, this potential is the Gs acceleration available. For jump drives, the potential is the jump number (Jn), or jump range in parsecs. For power plants, it is power plant rating (Pn).
...
It is important to note from the drive potential table that some drives will not produce results in some tonnages of hulls, as indicated by a dash instead of a number on the table; the drives and power plants table also indicates that some drives will not fit into some hulls. During the design process, it may also turn out that after fitting a set of drives and power plant into a hull, there may be insufficient tonnage remaining for fuel, basic controls or life support.
Drive ratings greater than six are not available from the equipment shown here.

"Result" here is a rating in the Drive Potential Table. It produces no nominal rating. It doesn't say anything about not working at all.
If it fits (with fuel tanks) it can be installed.

Note that no working power plant is required, only a power plant with a equal or higher drive letter...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I thought that "Gunner Interact" and "Return Fire" were conceptually an "either/or" decision.
EITHER the gunner controls when and where to fire OR the computer just shoots back at whoever shoots at you (so the PILOT) can worry about other things.

Different things:
Gunner Interact allows the gunner to add skill anytime you fire.
Return Fire allows fire in the Return Fire Phase. A turn has several fire phases, and you can fire in all of them with the right software.

LBB2'81, p39:
Return fire allows a ship's lasers to fire at enemy ships which fired at the ship in the immediately previous fire phase. Use of this program also requires the target program, and DMs allowed by other programs (such as gunner interact) are allowed. If more than one enemy ship is fired on, the multi-target program is also required.

 

[atpollard]

Different things:
Gunner Interact allows the gunner to add skill anytime you fire.
Return Fire allows fire in the Return Fire Phase. A turn has several fire phases, and you can fire in all of them with the right software.

Would the "double fire" stack with that and allow multiple "double fires" ... (one for OFFENSE and again in the RETURN FIRE phase)?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If you want to be able to maneuver on top of all that (among other things), you're going to need to move into the realm of Model/5+ to get sufficient CPU to be running ALL the programs you really want for a combat heavy design ...

It's LBB2: As far as I know we can change what programs are running from phase to phase, so we can have Target in the Fire phases and Manoeuvre in movement phases.

The software must be loaded into storage to be run, and we can change loaded software in the Computer Reprogramming phase.

Note that the turn sequence is missing in LBB2'81, you have to look it up in LBB2'77. Just to confuse the user...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Would the "double fire" stack with that and allow multiple "double fires" ... (one for OFFENSE and again in the RETURN FIRE phase)?

Sure, why not?

But it will malfunction sooner...

 

[Grav_Moped]

And this all comes down to the notion that it has to make sense, or it fails as SF by precluding suspension of disbelief. It's just words and numbers on a page if you can't envision it as a plausible description of the way things work.

I mean, while it can work like a very abstract Eurisko session -- one set of spreadsheet entries against another -- that's not necessarily science fiction.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And this all comes down to the notion that it has to make sense, ...

Sure, but definitions of "makes sense" may vary, especially when LBB2 is involved.

 

[mike wightman]

I looked at LBB2'81, p13:


"Result" here is a rating in the Drive Potential Table. It produces no nominal rating. It doesn't say anything about not working at all.
If it fits (with fuel tanks) it can be installed.

Note that no working power plant is required, only a power plant with a equal or higher drive letter...

You are misunderstanding the language used.

It specifically states "some drives will not produce results in some tonnages of hull as indicated by a dash instead of a number on the table"

This means a dash (-) will not produce results, which means the same as is inoperatibve, won't work, wont produce power, won't maneuver, won't jump. The flowery choice of words doesn't disguise the intent, a drive with a dash (-) is of no use.
A dash (-) means it will produce no results, it won't work, so your fudge is not allowed by the rules as written.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You are misunderstanding the language used.

And we are discussing the meaning of the word "is" again...

Either way it does not matter as:

A starship must have a a jump drive and a power plant; a maneuver drive may also be installed, but is not required. In all cases, the power plant letter must equal or exceed either the maneuver drive letter or the jump drive letter, whichever is higher.

No-one said it had to work or have a rating, just have a drive letter.

It is a power plant, it has the required drive letter, that's what the rules require.

Does it make sense? No, of course not, but LBB2...

 

[Grav_Moped]

So, you take a Size G power plant out of some 600Td ship where it's working just fine, and put it into a 200Td hull specifically built to accommodate it (and the other drives, of course). At that point, it can ONLY power lasers (up to 6 of them due to hardpoint limiits) at double-fire rates. It can not power the maneuver drive or jump drive at all, while powering the lasers without needing any fuel whatsoever.

Um, ok.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So, you take a Size G power plant out of some 600Td ship where it's working just fine, and put it into a 200Td hull specifically built to accommodate it (and the other drives, of course). At that point, it can ONLY power lasers (up to 6 of them due to hardpoint limiits) at double-fire rates. It can not power the maneuver drive or jump drive at all, while powering the lasers without needing any fuel whatsoever.

Whether the power plant stops working entirely, or just don't require fuel, it can still power the drives perfectly well. And double fire the lasers. LBB2...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The drive potential table should of course have been filled to the right with the last potential used, so that any power plant larger than F would give a potential of 6 in a 200 Dt hull.

If you can fit an oversized power plant, it should give the max potential, 6.

But, alas...

 

[Grav_Moped]

Whether the power plant stops working entirely, or just don't require fuel, it can still power the drives perfectly well. And double fire the lasers. LBB2...

No, it can't. Pn >= Jn and Pn >= Gs. "No result" is not >=.

The only reason the lasers work is that they need a drive letter value, not a rating.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

No, it can't. Pn >= Jn and Pn >= Gs. "No result" is not >=.

LBB2 isn't LBB5.

LBB2 requires:

LBB2'81, p13:
In all cases, the power plant letter must equal or exceed either the maneuver drive letter or the jump drive letter, whichever is higher.

 

[Grav_Moped]

LBB2 isn't LBB5.

LBB2 requires:

Ok

 

[mike wightman]

And we are discussing the meaning of the word "is" again...

Either way it does not matter as:

No-one said it had to work or have a rating, just have a drive letter.

It is a power plant, it has the required drive letter, that's what the rules require.

Does it make sense? No, of course not, but LBB2...

No, it requires it to have a numerical rating in the hull it is put in, otherwise it "will not produce results" it won't work.

LBB2 77
"2. Only drive and power plants shown on the maximum drive potential table are
available. Relationships between hulls and drives marked with a dash (-) cannot be
used."
Clarrified or reinforced by LBB2 81
"2. Only the drives and power plants shown on the drive potential table are
possible. Drives marked with a dash (-) may not be used with that hull size."

 

[mike wightman]

Whether the power plant stops working entirely, or just don't require fuel, it can still power the drives perfectly well. And double fire the lasers. LBB2...

No it can't, the rules state it "will not produce results" - so nothing works, not the maneuver drive, not the lasers, nothing, it has no results.

LBB2 77
"2. Only drive and power plants shown on the maximum drive potential table are
available. Relationships between hulls and drives marked with a dash (-) cannot be
used."
Clarrified or reinforced by LBB2 81
"2. Only the drives and power plants shown on the drive potential table are
possible. Drives marked with a dash (-) may not be used with that hull size."