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OTU Only: Gypsy Queen Class Fast Merchant, LBB2, 199Td, J26GP7

LBB2 isn't LBB5.

LBB2 requires:
You solved the XBoat!

A Size D powerplant is only 6 tons larger than a Size B one. It has a higher drive letter than the Size B jump drive, so that can work. But it has no rating, thus needing no fuel. So it all fits.

Added to clarify:
Maximum power plant fuel burn during Jump under normal circumstances is 1/4 of monthly rate, plus 10% for duration varation. In a "normal" LBB2'81 xboat, that'd be 11 tons.

Swap the B power plant for a D one, that puts you 6 tons over. But, since D has no rating in a 100Td hull, the Pn factor in 10Td*Pn is undefined, and thus can be assumed to be zero. So, on net it's 4 tons saved... and if you're comparing it to RAW, it's 40 tons saved, of which 30 wouldn't fit into the hull.
 
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A Size D powerplant is only 6 tons larger than a Size B one. It has a higher drive letter than the Size B jump drive, so that can work. But it has no rating, thus needing no fuel. So it all fits.
Silly, but yes...

Can even fit two staterooms. A bit pricey...
Code:
XB-1500041-000000-00000-0        MCr 104         100 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=1
batteries                                           TL=10
                           Cargo=0 Fuel=40 EP=0 Agility=0

Single Occupancy    LBB2 design                             103,5
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Part Streaml  Custom             1          100           
Configuration       Sphere             5                     20 
                                                                
Jump Drive          B                  4    1      15        20 
Manoeuvre D                                                     
Power Plant         D                       1      13        32 
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4      40           
                                                                
Bridge                                      1      20         0,5
Computer            m/4                4    1       4        30 
                                                                
Staterooms                                  2       8         1 
                                                                
Cargo                                                           
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 103,50           Sum:               103,5
Class Cost          MCr  11,39          Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr  93,15
 
You solved the XBoat!

A Size D powerplant is only 6 tons larger than a Size B one. It has a higher drive letter than the Size B jump drive, so that can work. But it has no rating, thus needing no fuel. So it all fits.
Except it produces a dash <-> which is "will not produce results"

If it produces no results it does not power anything, as they would be results, which it has none of.

LBB2 77
"2. Only drive and power plants shown on the maximum drive potential table are
available. Relationships between hulls and drives marked with a dash (-) cannot be
used.
"
Clarrified or reinforced by LBB2 81
"2. Only the drives and power plants shown on the drive potential table are
possible. Drives marked with a dash (-) may not be used with that hull size."
 
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No-one said it had to work

When you abandon Intellectual Honesty (and "good taste") for Munchkinism (as flagrantly self-serving "reinterpretations" of obvious intentions) ... you're bound to break something.

Usually it's going to be either Suspension Of Disbelief and/or Trust In Good Faith ... take your pick.



With respect to the topic at hand, with regards to @Grav_Moped and this specific starship design, there's an extremely simple answer.

Not Rules Legal In Traveller

There.
Done.
 
The big question is whether in this case "undefined" (or no result) equals zero or merely indicates that you cannot get the expected Pn=7.
 
AnotherDilbert posted #42 (for some reason I can't directly quote?)
In all cases, the power plant letter must equal or exceed either the maneuver drive letter or the jump drive letter, whichever is higher.

If the rating in the drive table is a dash <-> it produces no results.
No results
power is a result - so no power.

You may think you have discovered a rule fudge but you really haven't.
The rules are clear, if a drive produces a numerical rating in the drive table it works in that hull, if the drive and hull result in a dash - then they do not work in that size hull.

Later it explicitly states it:

LBB2 77
"2. Only drive and power plants shown on the maximum drive potential table are
available. Relationships between hulls and drives marked with a dash (-) cannot be
used.
"
Clarrified or reinforced by LBB2 81
"2. Only the drives and power plants shown on the drive potential table are
possible. Drives marked with a dash (-) may not be used with that hull size."
 
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Ok. You can use B2 drives in B5 ships. You can also use drop tanks in B5 ships.

What happens when you drop tanks on something with Pn4 and the drive rating goes above 6 on the core hull?

B5 lets you build it that way. But what actually, physically happens when you do this?
 
The whole FUEL is a "cluster" ... the fact that a Power Plant B requires 10 dT of fuel in a 400 dTon ship, 20 dT of fuel in a 200 dTon ship and 40 dt of fuel in a 100 dT ship is a "feature" that should not have survived past the first draft of the 1977 rules ... let alone still be part of the The Traveller Book in 1882 and Starter Traveller in 1983. Same PP, but the smaller the HULL you place it in, the more FUEL it consumes :rolleyes:
I dispute this interpretation.

The first fallacy is the notion that the power plant fuel requirement dictates the fuel consumption rate over time.
IT DOESN'T.

Instead, the power plant fuel requirement is intended (although the RAW never spells this out adequately, so you have to read between the lines in order to realize it) to act as a "buffer" for safety margins in routine operations.

I'll grant that the way LBB2 "works" this issue (the 10Pn rule) is ... clumsy ... but it works.
Like the saying goes ... "Stupid but works may be stupid, but it still works."



With respect to @atpollard ... this is the reason why I prefer to "hybridize" LBB2 power plant performance and fuel consumption with LBB5.80 (for EP rules) and with Beltstrike (for fuel consumption rules). The net result is that ACS wind up having longer endurance than a "mere 4 weeks" while BCS wind up having a shorter endurance (sometimes just a mere 2 weeks with limited maneuver capacity).

A 3000 ton starship with a Power Plant-Q yielding code: 1 @ 3000 tons would generate EP=30 and require 10 tons of power plant fuel (per LBB2 fuel rules).

A 3000 ton hull requires 3000/2000=1.5 tons of basic "housekeeping" fuel consumption per week.
A Power Plant-Q going "full blast" generating EP=30 continuously would consume 30*0.35=10.5 tons of fuel consumption per week.

So a 3000 ton starship with these basic parameters could allocated 2 weeks of basic power (1 week in jump, 1 week in normal space = 3 tons of fuel consumption) and have 7 tons of fuel remaining for maneuvering, which would be sufficient for 4d 16h of maneuver at full power between refueling cycles.

Under MOST circumstances of "bulk transport starship" operations ... that's really all you need when jumping between star systems as a (LBB2) small ship universe megafreighter on a pre-planned route.
Is it "ideal" ...? No.
Does it get the "job done" with adequate margin for safety ...? Yes. Yes it does.
What happens when you drop tanks on something with Pn4 and the drive rating goes above 6 on the core hull?
What you're asking for:

What actually happens:

Whoopsie ... 🫨
 
B5 lets you build it that way. But what actually, physically happens when you do this?
B2 powerplants are almost always better in EP/ton terms than even TL-14 HG powerplants, and are available from TL-9. This is a problem.

(This is a placeholder. Longer reply to follow. )
 
Later it explicitly states it:

"2. Only the drives and power plants shown on the drive potential table are
possible. Drives marked with a dash (-) may not be used with that hull size."
Oh, I had missed p21.

Agreed, that put an end to that silliness.


Not that it is any better that a perfectly good drive wouldn't work just because it would be a bit overpowered. I mean a V8 can't possibly work in a Mustang, it has to be a four-pot at best...
 
B2 powerplants are almost always better in EP/ton terms than even TL-14 HG powerplants, and are available from TL-9. This is a problem.
Depends on how you squint.

If you take ALL of the engineering factors into account (drives+fuel tankage) then LBB2 and LBB5 are "within kissing distance" of each other.

The difference is that ratio between drives and fuel can vary WILDLY between the two paradigms ... while the actual tonnages involved in aggregate total wind up being reasonably close. You CAN wind up with some edge cases where LBB2 drives are "more economical" for a variety of reasons than LBB5 drives will be in the exact same application, but that's just a consequence of following two different design paradigms rather than being a "bug" in the system.
 
B2 powerplants are almost always better in EP/ton terms than even TL-14 HG powerplants, and are available from TL-9. This is a problem.
Including the fuel requirement?

They are great in larger ships with high letter (=high tech) power plants, not so great in smaller ships with low letter (=low tech) plants.

Cost is a problem for LBB5 drives...
 
B2 powerplants are almost always better in EP/ton terms than even TL-14 HG powerplants, and are available from TL-9. This is a problem.

(This is a placeholder. Longer reply to follow. )
Typically, the constraint (in the context of HG) is that the LBB3 drive TL limits make this largely moot in a big-ship universe. That said...

LBB2'81 power plants are 1.5%*EP+1Td. TL-13-14 HG power plants are 2% per EP.

In LBB2? If you're not tracking EPs and just going for the "one letter higher for double-fire" rating, either it uses Pn=6 fuel, Pn=6.xx fuel, or Pn-7 fuel depending on your mood.

In HG? Just using 10Td*Pn fuel is a giveaway above 1000Td, a penalty below that. On the other hand, the rating cap means that you can't ever have Agility-6 if you're using LBB2 drives unless your computer is smaller than Mod/3 and you have no energy weapons.

Ideally, game balance suggests that you do want to allow agility-6 for LBB2 ships, but not allow extra EP beyond "double fire" requirements from the LBB2 drives.

Need to look into this a bit.
 
In HG? Just using 10Td*Pn fuel is a giveaway above 1000Td, a penalty below that. On the other hand, the rating cap means that you can't ever have Agility-6 if you're using LBB2 drives unless your computer is smaller than Mod/3 and you have no energy weapons.
Fighting ships needs way larger than PP-6, so LBB2 power plants are not very desirable.

If you just want to run away, you can use Emergency Agility to get Agility-6, even with a few other power consumers.
 
LBB2'81 power plants are 1.5%*EP+1Td. TL-13-14 HG power plants are 2% per EP.
That is just a small part of the equation.

Take a LBB2 Scout (-ish):
Code:
SC-11222R1-000000-00000-0       MCr 27,1         100 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=1
batteries                                            TL=9
                          Cargo=19 Fuel=40 EP=2 Agility=2

Single Occupancy    LBB2 design                    19        30,1
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined      100 Dt          1          100          
Configuration       Needle/Wedge       1                      3
Scoops              Streamlined                                

                                                               
Jump Drive          A                  2    1      10        10
Manoeuvre D         A                  2    1       1         4
Power Plant         A                  2    1       4         8
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      40          
                                                               
Bridge                                      1      20         0,5
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4
                                                               
Staterooms                                  1       4         0,5
                                                               
Cargo                                              19          
                                                               
Empty hardpoint                             1       1         0,1
                                                               
Nominal Cost        MCr 30,10            Sum:      19        30,1
Class Cost          MCr  3,31           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 27,09


Now make it a LBB5 ship with the same drives:
Code:
SC-11222R1-000000-00000-0       MCr 31,3         100 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=1
batteries                                           TL=11
                          Cargo=12 Fuel=40 EP=2 Agility=2

Single Occupancy                                   12        39,1
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             1          100          
Configuration       Needle/Wedge       1                     12
Scoops              Streamlined                               0,1
                                                               
Jump Drive          A                  2    1      10        10
Manoeuvre D         A                  2    1       1         4
Power Plant         A                  2    1       4         8
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      40          
Purifier                                    1       7         0,0
                                                               
Bridge                                      1      20         0,5
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4
                                                               
Staterooms                                  1       4         0,5
                                                               
Cargo                                              12          
                                                               
Empty hardpoint                             1       1          
                                                               
Nominal Cost        MCr 39,13            Sum:      12        39,1
Class Cost          MCr  8,22           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 31,30
We lose some space to the purifier and the hull costs some more...


And a full LBB5 ship:
Code:
SC-11222R1-000000-00000-0       MCr 40,5         100 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=1
batteries                                           TL=11
                          Cargo=31 Fuel=22 EP=2 Agility=2

Single Occupancy                                   31        50,6
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             1          100          
Configuration       Needle/Wedge       1                     12
Scoops              Streamlined                               0,1
                                                               
Jump Drive                             2    1       3        12
Manoeuvre D                            2    1       5         3,5
Power Plant                            2    1       6        18
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      22          
Purifier                                    1       7         0,0
                                                               
Bridge                                      1      20         0,5
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4
                                                               
Staterooms                                  1       4         0,5
                                                               
Cargo                                              31          
                                                               
Empty hardpoint                             1       1          
                                                               
Nominal Cost        MCr 50,63            Sum:      31        50,6
Class Cost          MCr 10,63           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 40,50
Much more expensive, but also much more payload.
 
Including the fuel requirement?
in the >1000Td range, it's a bonus.
They are great in larger ships with high letter (=high tech) power plants, not so great in smaller ships with low letter (=low tech) plants.
at TL-14 (max V drive), the biggest ship with a rating of 6 is 600Td (but a Size T will give you a rating of 6, U gives you that and double fire). V should provide 30-34EP depending on the hull (30 in 3000Td, 36 in 600Td, 40 in 800, 1000. 2000, and 5000Td) if you're tracking it. M-6 in 600Td is 36EP, so you could get up to 4 spare EP for lasers and computer (triple turret and a mod-3?) without needing to go to TL-15 drives to get Agility 6.
Cost is a problem for LBB5 drives...
yes
 
For Z-drives (TL-15) it's a nobrainer:

LBB5:
Code:
MT-E622232-000000-00000-0      MCr 1 231       5 000 Dton
bearing                                           Crew=30
batteries                                           TL=15
                    Cargo=3160 Fuel=1100 EP=100 Agility=1

Single Occupancy                                  3 161     1 538
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             E          5 000         
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                      400
Scoops              Streamlined                                 5
                                                                
Jump Drive                             2    1       150       600
Manoeuvre D                            2    1       250       175
Power Plant                            2    1       100       300
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2     1 100         
Purifier                                    1        17         0
                                                                
Bridge                                      1       100        25
Computer            m/3                3    1         3        18
                                                                
Staterooms                                 30       120        15
                                                                
Cargo                                             3 161         
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 1 538,17         Sum:     3 161     1 538
Class Cost          MCr   323,02        Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 1 230,54                                 
                                                                
                                                                
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    10
Passengers            Mid     0          30       Engineers     5
                      Low     0                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service    15
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0
                                                                
                                                                
Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                                     
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
     MCr 1 230,54      kCr 246 107        kCr 5 127              80%
                                                                
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                 
Bank              Cr 2 461 072          High         Cr         0
Fuel              Cr   110 000          Middle       Cr         0
Life Support      Cr    60 000          Low          Cr         0
Salaries          Cr    55 200          Cargo        Cr 2 528 000
Maintenance       Cr    49 221                                   
Berthing          Cr     5 000                                   
                                                                
Summa            kCr     2 740                      kCr     2 528
                                                                
     Income potential per jump     kCr -212                   
  Yearly yield on down payment     -2,2%


LBB5 with LBB2 drives:
Code:
MT-E622232-000000-00000-0        MCr 792       5 000 Dton
bearing                                           Crew=28
batteries                                           TL=15
                    Cargo=3504 Fuel=1020 EP=100 Agility=1

Single Occupancy                                  3 505       990
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             E          5 000         
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                      400
Scoops              Streamlined                                 5
                                                                
Jump Drive          Z                  2    1       125       240
Manoeuvre D         Z                  2    1        47        96
Power Plant         Z                  2    1        73       192
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2     1 020         
Purifier                                    1        15         0
                                                                
Bridge                                      1       100        25
Computer            m/3                3    1         3        18
                                                                
Staterooms                                 28       112        14
                                                                
Cargo                                             3 505         
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 990,15           Sum:     3 505       990
Class Cost          MCr 207,93          Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 792,12                                   
                                                                
                                                                
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    10
Passengers            Mid     0          28       Engineers     3
                      Low     0                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service    15
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0
                                                                
                                                                
Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                                     
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
       MCr 792,12      kCr 158 424        kCr 3 301              80%
                                                                
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                 
Bank              Cr 1 584 240          High         Cr         0
Fuel              Cr   102 000          Middle       Cr         0
Life Support      Cr    56 000          Low          Cr         0
Salaries          Cr    51 360          Cargo        Cr 2 800 000
Maintenance       Cr    31 685                                   
Berthing          Cr     5 000                                   
                                                                
Summa            kCr     1 830                      kCr     2 800
                                                                
     Income potential per jump     kCr 970                   
  Yearly yield on down payment     15,3%
Much cheaper and significantly more payload.
 
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