Have you ever been to Startown?

[kilemall]

Hmm, well I do feel no need to go anywhere near those things, perhaps not an exact metaphor or at least one more appropriate to an 1800s era of travel, but the point is still there, that all manner of economic and/or social strata will be catered to, even if it's not visible to SOC 9+ types.

 

[Timerover51]

Hmm, well I do feel no need to go anywhere near those things, perhaps not an exact metaphor or at least one more appropriate to an 1800s era of travel, but the point is still there, that all manner of economic and/or social strata will be catered to, even if it's not visible to SOC 9+ types.

Are you saying that I am a Soc 9+ type? Because I can afford to take a cruise in the Caribbean or around Hawaii?

 

[kilemall]

Are you saying that I am a Soc 9+ type? Because I can afford to take a cruise in the Caribbean or around Hawaii?

Easy on the literal metaphor pedal there, more on the reading my post part.

 

[GypsyComet]

I've been having the same thoughts - I suspect that startown might often look like the various shops and restaurants inside airports these days. Certainly in the higher tech/law level systems.

For the most part I suspect that Startown is pretty pedestrian and pretty darn safe. Mos Eisley isn't nasty because it's a Startown, it's nasty because it's Mos Eisley. There seems to be a tendency to view all Startowns as some version of Shaghai/Hong Kong/Port Royal when I expect that these would be a exception rather than the rule.

It will depend on the law level of the world around the port. A "lawless" world will have plenty of vice and danger to go around, and the port will be a haven for relatively honest interstellar trade. A high law world will have relatively few outlets for vice and danger, and the startown will often end up harboring those outlets.

In between, and present in nearly all cases where the world is somewhat developed, you're going to see a lot of trans-shipping facilities. Warehousing, import/export, transport hubs, and those secondary businesses that benefit from proximity, including brokers both corporate and freelance. Where the potentially seedy side sneaks in is when these associated businesses are not fully automated, and their employees need lunch, an after-shift drink, or a crash pad close to the office. Older Startowns will probably have gone through a number of cycles of getting seedy, getting downright dangerous, and getting cleaned up. That doesn't even take into account the occasional natural disaster. Having your onsite hydrogen fuel stores spring a leak and go "rain bomb" on everything within two miles is "natural", right?

And remember, some ports in the central Imperium are thousands of years old and will have gone through half a dozen institutional changes in legal status with regard to the worlds they are on and the stellar polity above them.

 

[Quint]

It will depend on the law level of the world around the port. A "lawless" world will have plenty of vice and danger to go around, and the port will be a haven for relatively honest interstellar trade. A high law world will have relatively few outlets for vice and danger, and the startown will often end up harboring those outlets.

While I think that the system law level is highly pertinent, I think that the other (perhaps even more pertinent) factor is the SPA (Starport Authority). The Imperium has a highly vested interest in starports being safe places where people will want to go to trade and travel. So while there are certainly going to be systems that are less safe (and even dangerous hives of scum and villainy) again I suspect that the SPA works rather hard to keep things pretty boring.

D.

 

[agorski]

While I think that the system law level is highly pertinent, I think that the other (perhaps even more pertinent) factor is the SPA (Starport Authority). The Imperium has a highly vested interest in starports being safe places where people will want to go to trade and travel. So while there are certainly going to be systems that are less safe (and even dangerous hives of scum and villainy) again I suspect that the SPA works rather hard to keep things pretty boring.

It sounds like you're both saying that startown is within the starport itself, but I always thought it was just outside the fence, therefore local system control instead of the SPA.

 

[kilemall]

It will depend on the law level of the world around the port. A "lawless" world will have plenty of vice and danger to go around, and the port will be a haven for relatively honest interstellar trade. A high law world will have relatively few outlets for vice and danger, and the startown will often end up harboring those outlets.

In between, and present in nearly all cases where the world is somewhat developed, you're going to see a lot of trans-shipping facilities. Warehousing, import/export, transport hubs, and those secondary businesses that benefit from proximity, including brokers both corporate and freelance. Where the potentially seedy side sneaks in is when these associated businesses are not fully automated, and their employees need lunch, an after-shift drink, or a crash pad close to the office. Older Startowns will probably have gone through a number of cycles of getting seedy, getting downright dangerous, and getting cleaned up. That doesn't even take into account the occasional natural disaster. Having your onsite hydrogen fuel stores spring a leak and go "rain bomb" on everything within two miles is "natural", right?

And remember, some ports in the central Imperium are thousands of years old and will have gone through half a dozen institutional changes in legal status with regard to the worlds they are on and the stellar polity above them.

This is my view, an organic interaction where local conditions greatly affect the nature and 'economic model' of startown.

 

[flykiller]

That doesn't even take into account the occasional natural disaster.

back in the 80's the united states navy's lease on subic bay and the air force's lease on clark was up for re-negotiation. marcos wanted tens of billions of dollars for use of the facilities. the united states tried to talk him down.

then some volcano erupted and obliterated both facilities. the united states said forget it and walked away.

will have gone through half a dozen institutional changes in legal status with regard to the worlds they are on

there may be abandoned facilities too. economic models change, resource allocations change, political dominance changes, and the mercantile traffic moves on. might be quite few older sites, perhaps in bizarre locations, that have no traffic or personnel but are still usable ....

 

[Quint]

It sounds like you're both saying that startown is within the starport itself, but I always thought it was just outside the fence, therefore local system control instead of the SPA.

As the discussion has progressed I think that either is an overly simplistic "general rule" because it assumes that there is a "fence" to cross. If we look at today, is that the literal fence on the airport proper, or is it past the TSA line? Or is it the international zone of a international airport?

Even in the case of local rather than SPA control I expect that the local system listens petty hard to SPA (or other local Imperial official) if there are complaints about how the local Startown is run - again, nobody wants the Imperial Marines to show up because trade has been interfered with to a "unreasonable" level.

D.

 

[GypsyComet]

It sounds like you're both saying that startown is within the starport itself, but I always thought it was just outside the fence, therefore local system control instead of the SPA.

Not within the Port proper, but still frequently on Imperial land.

Every world is different.

 

[talos402000]

It sounds like you're both saying that startown is within the starport itself, but I always thought it was just outside the fence, therefore local system control instead of the SPA.

Most startowns are located right next to the xt line. Some worlds however do not want a startown (mainly because of crime) on their land so one develops inside the port. The third option is for startown to straddle the xt line, making the work of customs, security, and law enforcement very difficult.

 

[GypsyComet]

Unless a world lacks infrastructure and needs a StarTown to develop as a shipping hub, the development and direction of a Startown may not be directed or purposeful. Sometimes it is an outgrowth of the Port into the world, and sometimes it is an reaction of the world to the Port.

 

[flykiller]

is that the literal fence on the airport proper, or is it past the TSA line? Or is it the international zone of a international airport?

on some worlds it will be a white line painted on the road that you barely notice as you grav in. on others it will be a steel wall 40 feet high with guard towers.

 

[Quint]

on some worlds it will be a white line painted on the road that you barely notice as you grav in. on others it will be a steel wall 40 feet high with guard towers.

Exactly!

D.

 

[Sifu Blackirish]

i have been to the mother of all Startowns...

Where else would an ideal Startown be but Olongapo, the town next to the Subic Bay Naval Station, Philippines?

My Marine squadron, VMFP-3, flew RF-4Bs. Photo reconnaissance aircraft which were unarmed and a fat target, but were always used to set speed and altitude records. We were deployed on the USS Midway, CV-41. For some reason, while the fleet was on maneuvers in Alaska, we were there for a while on our own and the fleet was NOT in. We were free to wander around and really get to know the locals. People were actually laid back, not in a hurry, and the town was actually nice to be in.

It was a rude surprise to some of us when the fleet came in, for the local 'businesswomen' who were polite and friendly to us when we were the only game in town, did their best Linda Blair Exorcist head spin and chased the off duty money.

I pulled Shore Patrol and kept count during my duty time. Six square blocks, 220 bars, all packed to the gills with desperate sailors and Marines.

It was also interesting to note that my WESTPAC tour occurred a short time after Ferdinand Marcos had lifted martial law. There were still a lot of troops on random patrol when I was there. They had no problem with you partying, but I noticed that NO ONE talked politics. Also, if there was a dispute between a visiting military and a local, the local was automatically innocent and the military person was automatically guilty.

Some of the old timers told stories about martial law curfew, in that you either needed to be on the base or you would remain in the bar area for the duration. Soldiers did not bother to ask for ID of people out after curfew, they just shot you.

 

[BlackBat242]

Of the 6 weeks we (VMA(AW)-242) were in Cubi Point in mid-May through June of 1984*, the worst week was when the Midway group was in-port - there were too many sailors in Olongapo then - fortunately we had been there long enough to have already made arrangements that mostly held up during that week.



* See posts #41-#44.