Regina Startown (1900)

[kilemall]

I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm saying there is a difference between worlds in Traveller, and a starcity not complimenting but existing instead of a starport is not what canon describes. So, there will be a lot of difference between Regina and Capital in 1900. Perhaps tax free zones exist for a certain time period...or for other reasons. They do on Earth today. But that's talking about one planet with fossil fuel ships and planes not interstellar trade using starships with "fusion" reactors. Some ships carry defensive explosives, nuclear weapons, etc. The starport appears to segregate itself from the local community for a reason. The Imperium may not want business build MP Fusion Guns in a starport where the world law level stops at shotguns. Just because you can carry it does not mean they produce it.

If your certain that this is the case for Regina you'll need some supporting evidence. 1248 suggests that Pashus (http://travellermap.com/world.html?sector=Deneb&hex=1432) was converted from a high tech world to a commercial/navy depot. Perhaps that required more cultural acceptance of military starships everywhere with industry creating starcities vs ports & cities. Perhaps this disastrous approach is the real reason for the Civil War since military technology security is easily lost. But it doesn't give niceties or details.

Find manufacturing examples in starports not just TAS, pubs, and warehouses.

The Canonista Theology School, bleh, a game I will gladly bow out of.

I have utterly no interest in defining Regina 1900, other then to note whether the gravesite of the Duke is forgotten cherished or destroyed, and the 4517th Duke's Own exists in some ancient lineage to a present day unit.

I tend to react to absolutist statements, that one about no manufacturing, just don't buy it.

Fossil fueled one planet economies vs. interstellar economies does not prove or disprove, what is always eternal is what provides a payoff, fiscal social and power. I expect 1900 Galaxiad people are the same that way.

And just because most starport game writers may not think in terms of taxation, jobs, development, etc. except in terms of generating smuggling and patron grist for the adventure mill, does not mean a specific institution does not exist or that we have to act First Imperium and because something is not 'in the book' that it cannot exist.

 

[aramis]

The Canonista Theology School, bleh, a game I will gladly bow out of.

I have utterly no interest in defining Regina 1900, other then to note whether the gravesite of the Duke is forgotten cherished or destroyed, and the 4517th Duke's Own exists in some ancient lineage to a present day unit.

Given that M1900 is the official setting Marc is working on ... I would strongly suggest you follow your intended plan and not go whinging on about it. You came right to the edge of an infraction for insulting others in the above.

 

[kilemall]

Given that M1900 is the official setting Marc is working on ... I would strongly suggest you follow your intended plan and not go whinging on about it. You came right to the edge of an infraction for insulting others in the above.

I'm interested in the system not the setting, if that makes sense, and I find the whole 'it has to fit canon' argument style to be problematic when it crosses that line from a specific setting, which he went into and I have no interest in, vs. a blanket statement about the nature of startowns extrality and businesses, which I was concerned with.

Otherwise, I do largely stay out of canon arguments or expressing any negative feelings I may have about them other then when it is entertaining to get into a positive canon discussion and in the spirit of the discussion to get into it as the line was clear to me prior to this admonishment.

 

[savage]

...
I have utterly no interest in defining Regina 1900, other then to note whether the gravesite of the Duke is forgotten cherished or destroyed, and the 4517th Duke's Own exists in some ancient lineage to a present day unit.
...
And just because most starport game writers may not think in terms of taxation, jobs, development, etc. except in terms of generating smuggling and patron grist for the adventure mill, does not mean a specific institution does not exist or that we have to act First Imperium and because something is not 'in the book' that it cannot exist.

Actually, I think my inquiry was a reasonable question. I even tossed you a bone at Pashus.
Marc doesn't need us to come up with fiction. He's pretty good at that. And often considered taxation, jobs, development beyond crime. But this is an analysis of what a Regina startown 1900 could be like.

When I recently did the timeline merger to be openminded (which i originally did not support), I left canon behind but utilized it like the laws of physics to support future history theory. As i recall, Asimov coined a word for it.
Anyhow, Regina 1900 could be Zho for all we know. :rofl: That's up to Marc.

 

[kilemall]

I have no idea about the game backstory of Pashus or why it would be a relevant point or bone.

Regina certainly is a touchstone for all us old CT types, but after 800 years, have to figure the place is as different as Europe would look to someone from 1216 AD.

But people are the same even if their future concerns are as exotic as wondering if they left the personality engram recorder on when they left the house.

 

[savage]

I have no idea about the game backstory of Pashus or why it would be a relevant point or bone.

Regina certainly is a touchstone for all us old CT types, but after 800 years, have to figure the place is as different as Europe would look to someone from 1216 AD.

I'm an ol' CT type. Never gamed Regina.
Different than 1216 Europe. Perhaps . It's only one TL. Perhaps not.

Well, I was trying to help you explore your view point.

Pashus, in 1248, moved from a high TL commercial star system to an open depot system. 3I/ Regency Depot's tend to be closed to military traffic. To accomplish that they would have had to explore heavy military interacting with civilian traffic on a regular basis, a high TL world. etc. Not simply a navy base in system next to a "starport". It's an example, of the Spinward worlds trying a different system. We really don't know if it succeeded.

 

[kilemall]

Differences aren't just tech. Consider rapidly expanding areas just based on new population, desirability, transportation paradigms and/or land use.

Yesterday's mansion district can become today's slum.

Classic Regina was tech A, if it's tech G now that's a bigger jump then medieval Europe to now, although not so jarring to seasoned Travellers.

When you say interacting, do you mean a depot at a world when usually most TU militaries seem to prefer a closed world setup for the full Naval Depot, or do you mean shared starport facilities including downports?

 

[robject]

I'm interested in the system not the setting, if that makes sense, and I find the whole 'it has to fit canon' argument style to be problematic when it crosses that line from a specific setting[...]

And really +700 years puts a theoretical kibosh on any sort of canon insistence. There are fewer things, if any, that must stay the same. (Why would a startown in 1900 be in the same place as a startown in 1100? Or a starport for that matter? It might. But it doesn't have to be.)

Of course, every setting needs a home base. The choice of that base depends on the goals of the author. I'm sure the idea of some sort of consistency and familiarity informs that -- sometimes you want to wipe the slate clean, and sometimes you have ideas that benefit from a familiar location.

Put another way: the Lorenverse doesn't really benefit from staying near Regina, because nothing really changes. And that's why 1248 splintered the Domain of Deneb, and why MegaTraveller created the assassination. The opposite reason is why TNE kept Regina alive.

 

[savage]

Differences aren't just tech. Consider rapidly expanding areas just base ...
When you say interacting, do you mean a depot at a world when usually most TU militaries seem to prefer a closed world setup for the full Naval Depot, or do you mean shared starport facilities including downports?

That is my question exactly. Depots are traditionally entirely closed systems. Made up of military only activities. 1248 changed it but didn't give us details.
They took a commercial star system which did extensive military manufacturing and converted it to an open commercial/military depot system. Another world near Regina became a defacto Depot in the Regency. How did it affect Regina? We don't know unless we speculate. We do know that they region went into a civil war because of canon.

Not "exploring" canon makes the exercise a "waste of time" IMO. Any futurist can fictionalize the future of a system. Roll some dice with worldbuilder and start dreaming. System stats are useful but we don't see cultural behavior patterns from them. On another thread someone tried to expand uwp to include cultural behavior a few months ago. It was interesting because we only have canon. What canon do we actually have on Regina? How is it described.

700-800 years ago...did Europeans expect Napoleon, Hitler and later the EU in Europe. Communism in the East? They we're exploring the world but didn't see their cultural roadblocks. They we're following kings and deep in the beginning of Medieval times in 1300 London was the biggest city in England. I was in Kiev a few years ago. They have buildings older than the USA. Earlier in history Russia was born from Kiev, Ukraine. Did they see the present turmoil?Michel de Nostredame wouldn't be born for another couple hundred years. On the other hand, there are parts of the world where if its not hundreds of years old they consider it relatively new. They still do the same things despite changes in TL. Oh wait. That's all history (aka canon) we should discuss it. :rofl:

Still new airports, shopping malls (a cold war development), city centers are built throughout the world. Times change.

So, Traveller has TL G worlds in 3I. How do they differ from other Regina's culture? Could Regina follow the same path or is it truly too frontier? San Fran was one a frontier too. The difference between TL G vs F are suppose to be no big deal in Traveller canon. IMTU that is not the case. If Regina is TL A then it's still exposed to TL F Imperium. As primitive China has been exposed to a higher TL USA only in trade not facism. Has it really changed in 20yrs.

I prefer the Casablanca view of Regina, i documented earlier suggesting Efate or another system became the regional powerhouse in trade with the Zho perhaps. Or those roles are reversed and Regina overshadowed Deneb, Efate, etc and became the new Coruscant. Back to the topic, I've seen no evidence of startowns/ starports being one region but there is always a first or an experiment. Unless someone has a better canon example. Star Wars' Coruscant has starships landing in the city center. In the Rebellion Dulinor took a "shuttle of some sort" from his starship to the palace on Capital a TL15 world. Today Chicago, Washington DC have airports in the city centers but there still airports without onsite manufacturing. Travel restrictions on the types of flights even changed dramatically after 9/11.

I opened a few simple questions? Seems reasonable to me. :CoW:
robject said it so nicely.

 

[savage]

So, lets look at the surroundings.

If Regina is TL G and Deneb, Deneb/Depot, Pashus, etc reached TLG by 1248. Are they now TLH?
What of Glisten, Mora, Efate, Rhylanor, Chronor, Queron, Lunion, Porozlo, Jewell? The Regency worlds built themselves up and then we're ripped up in Civil War.

Darrians probably are TLH in 1900. Did they re-develop the star trigger? Did they use it? IMTU Deneb stays on top and the Darrians become the regional powerhouse by 1300. They no longer need to suck up to the Regency territories.

 

[robject]

So here's some of the stuff I like so far.

"Startown would cater to the crews and naive travellers, and maybe less naive travellers. And less naive natives.

Probably also easier to meet contacts and brokers for less savoury cargo."

"Startown is not going to repair your ship, though they may try to sell you one..."

"Think Subic bay, Texas street, Bangkok."

Purpose. Startown is the destination for shore leave by civilian and military crew. As a warehousing district (presumably between the starport and the world), Startown lets player characters find their comfortable level of risk while still being close to the safety of a starport and, usually, their ship.

Getting Your Feet Wet. In other words, Startown is a relatively low-level hybrid town/dungeon. Characters may sortie out to it during the daytime and buy equipment with little risk. They may stray off the main arteries, trading a little more risk for the option of finding something interesting. And finally, they may rent a room at night, head into the streets, and dish out vigilante justice. Or be part of the problem.

It's Mardi Gras every day.

Learning About Traveller. As a "beginner's dungeon", it can also introduce new players to Traveller in general, and a setting in particular, and without a referee. A player can roll up a character and then take him into Startown -- probably during the day, on the main drag. There, he can rent a room, grab a bite, buy second-hand equipment, and get hired on a starship. Note that one can do a lot of this at the Starport itself -- but I would say that Startown is cheap. It's where you go if you don't have membership in TAS (or its 1900 equivalent). Once again, you can dial the safety level to what you're comfortable with, and learn as you go.


STARTOWN MAP

Though there are many types of Startowns, their offerings tend to be organized based on risk, with the least risky places grouped along a Main Drag, and increasingly risky destinations located further away.

Thus each of the following should be roughly classified according to personal risk (Main Drag, Off-Main, and Red Zone). Also note that risk in all areas increases at night.

Startown Generator. Starting from the Extrality Line, a few dice rolls generates the Main Drag and several branching streets, optionally filled with various things to see and experience, or open for customization as usual. Also, modular Startown segments can be "geomorphically" combined for quick variation, from "main street" to "den of thieves" to "mafia stronghold" and "church of the sub-genius", and so on.

Process: draw a line leading away from the Extrality Gate. This is the Main Drag. Next, roll 1D. Draw that many side streets off of the Main Drag. These are Off-Main streets. For each side of each Off-Main street, roll 1D. If that number is 1 or 2, then that's the number of buildings fronting that side of that street, starting with the corner off of the Main Drag. If that number is 3 or more, then there are 2 buildings fronting that side of the street, with the remainder of the buildings on a branch street -- a Red Zone street.

Now you have three classes of 'buildings':
(1) those on corners of the Main Drag are Main Drag buildings. Roll 2D on the Main Drag table to determine the nature of each of these.
(2) those on the Off-Main streets proper. Roll 2D on the Off-Main table for each.
(3) those on the Red Zone streets. Roll 2D on the Red Zone table for each.
[FONT=arial,helvetica]
[/FONT]
Main Drag
Place Liberally: "Taxi" service.

2-3. Off-port cargo factor "offices" (local or fly-by-night).
4. Recruiter.
5. Cheap Hotel (Cr10/night)
6. Casino.
7. (No more than once) Mass-transport station (maglev, grav train, shinkansen...).
8. Bar.
9. Greasy Spoon.
10. Street Vendor outside a Bar.
11. Cheap Hotel (Cr9/night)
12. (No more than once) Two secondhand starship lots.


Off-Main
Always: Police and Jail.
Place Liberally: Hiring halls. Includes "contract" (slave) hiring.
Place Liberally: Secondhand/pawn equipment. Outfitters' shops will be built like bunkers.

2. "Check-cashing"/bail bond kiosks.
3. Live music or event outside a sleazy bar or casino.
4. Sleazier casinos.
5. Even cheaper Hotel (e.g. Cr7/night)
6. Sleazier food.
7. Sleazier bars.
8. (No more than once) Arena, gladiator-style.
9. (No more than once) Secondhand/pawn vehicles and heavy equipment. Outfitters' shops will be built like bunkers.
10. Food kitchen, faith-based or otherwise.
11. Sophont Club (one particular sophont type). Don't get involved with Llellewyloly hot tub gatherings...
12. (No more than once) NEW equipment shop. Outfitters' shops will be built like bunkers.

Red Zone
Place Liberally: Warehousing (local-to-starport).

2. Virtual experiences: music, arenas, scenarios.
3. Loan sharks.
4. Grifter outside junk shop.
5. Brothel.
6. Dangerously cheap Hotel (e.g. Cr3/night)
7. Horrible establishment. Roll 1D: 1-2: Bar, 3-4: Casino, 5-6: Greasy Spoon.
8. Tattoo parlors, fly-by-night wafer jacks and implants.
9. Healers (street or shack-based).
10. Church missions (be they well-known, obscure, traditional, or nutjob).
11. Freak show/"zoo": building or land for the strange things that get found/confiscated.
12. Hazardous chemical production or storage - things that the starport may want to keep at arms' length.

Central City. This is less of a dungeon, and more like the castle or keep. Everything is expensive, so the players who visit here are invited, entitled, or wealthy. Megacorps do their business here, as do nobles and government agencies. Here there are "thousands of businesses taking offworld resources and converting them into interesting products for export of import."

 

[flykiller]

An arena, gladiator-style.

no reason it can't be virtual. jack in, fight the local champion. good chance to acclimate a new player to a game's combat system without risking the character.

then real fights for real prizes - a ship, meet the boss, the girl in the cage.

 

[whulorigan]

no reason it can't be virtual. jack in, fight the local champion. good chance to acclimate a new player to a game's combat system without risking the character.

then real fights for real prizes - a ship, meet the boss, the girl in the cage.

Perhaps the first is "Off the Main Drag" and the second is found in the "Red Zone".

I would also split the "[FONT=arial,helvetica]Church missions (be they well-known, obscure, traditional, or nutjob)" between Off-Main and Red Zone, depending on the type of faith.
[/FONT]

 

[flykiller]

They may stray off the main arteries, trading a little more risk for the option of finding something interesting.

plenty of room there for some referee customization. publish the "main artery", leave the side streets for the ref to fill-in.

or for sales purposes, make it modular. "main street" is the main package, then there's "den of thieves", "church of the <something or other>", "mafia king-pin", etc.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Whoo-hoo, Startown Baby!

So here's some of the stuff I like so far.

"Startown would cater to the crews and naive travellers, and maybe less naive travellers. And less naive natives.

Probably also easier to meet contacts and brokers for less savoury cargo."

"Startown is not going to repair your ship, though they may try to sell you one..."

"Think Subic bay, Texas street, Bangkok."

Purpose. Startown is the destination for shore leave by civilian and military crew. As a warehousing district (presumably between the starport and the world), Startown lets player characters find their comfortable level of risk while still being close to the safety of a starport and, usually, their ship.

Getting Your Feet Wet. In other words, Startown is a relatively low-level hybrid town/dungeon. Characters may sortie out to it during the daytime and buy equipment with little risk. They may stray off the main arteries, trading a little more risk for the option of finding something interesting. And finally, they may rent a room at night, head into the streets, and dish out vigilante justice. Or be part of the problem.

It's Mardi Gras every day.

Learning About Traveller. As a "beginner's dungeon", it can also introduce new players to Traveller in general, and a setting in particular, and without a referee. A player can roll up a character and then take him into Startown -- probably during the day, on the main drag. There, he can rent a room, grab a bite, buy second-hand equipment, and get hired on a starship. Note that one can do a lot of this at the Starport itself -- but I would say that Startown is cheap. It's where you go if you don't have membership in TAS (or its 1900 equivalent). Once again, you can dial the safety level to what you're comfortable with, and learn as you go.


STARTOWN MAP

Though there are many types of Startowns, their offerings tend to be organized based on risk, with the least risky places grouped along a Main Drag, and increasingly risky destinations located further away.

Thus each of the following should be roughly classified according to personal risk (Main Drag, Off-Main, and Red Zone). Also note that risk in all areas increases at night.

Main Drag
Off-port cargo factor "offices" (local or fly-by-night).
Cheap rooms for rent.
Bars, casinos, and food.
Street Vendors.
Recruiters.
Secondhand starship lot (occasional).
Transport to Central City, mass transit and grav "taxi".

Off-Main
Even cheaper rooms.
Sleazier bars, casinos, and food.
Hiring halls. Includes "contract" (slave) hiring.
Police and Jail.
"Check-cashing"/bail bond kiosks.
Sophont Clubs. Don't get involved with Llellewyloly hot tub gatherings...
Secondhand/pawn equipment (typical), new equipment (occasional). Outfitters' shops will be built like bunkers.
Secondhand/pawn vehicles and heavy equipment (occasional). Outfitters' shops will be built like bunkers.
Lotteries.
Arena, gladiator-style.
Live music, virtual experiences.

Red Zone
Dangerously cheap rooms.
Really horrible bars, casinos, and food.
Hazardous chemical production or storage - things that the starport may want to keep at arms' length.
Warehousing (local-to-starport).
Loan sharks.
Gangs.
Brothels.
Grifters.
Freak shows, tattoo parlors, fly-by-night wafer jacks and implants.
Healers.
Church missions (be they well-known, obscure, traditional, or nutjob).


Central City. This is less of a dungeon, and more like the castle or keep. Everything is expensive, so the players who visit here are invited, entitled, or wealthy. Megacorps do their business here, as do nobles and government agencies. Here there are "thousands of businesses taking offworld resources and converting them into interesting products for export of import."

First ego suitable puffed up.

Second, I love this brief...LOOK, A HORNED GLARBLEX! *points*

Yoinks and away! :devil:

 

[Condottiere]

I don't think you need to make it one size fits all stereotype, since Singapore and Shanghai have really cleaned themselves up in the meantime, at least superficially. Bangkok ... I suspect they'll rename it one day.

My take on the Vargr equivalent is that they (the Vargr) consider it their variant of a giant shopping mall.

 

[kilemall]

Canon has a use even for an ATU person like me in terms of case study and options.

Where I balk is when it crosses the line from setting to rules and gets enshrined as 'that's the way it is'.

They need to be compatible obviously so it's seamless to the customers that use the system that way, but for it to be a system I might consider switching to it needs to have compelling advantages AND 'tread softly on my dreams'.

Now then, to depot worlds.

The advantages of a depot setup is security physical and intel, clarity in who to shoot when, maximized spacehead movement of ships and troops when hours count, and completely available assets without compromise or politics.

I could see however in a constrained economic environment, especially of a smaller polity, that the vast capital investment necessary to make a shipyard world would be VERY attractive to 'kill two birds with one stone' and leverage naval investment into an economic powerhouse, or commercial facilities partially militarized to save expenditure.

A loose confederation/political will, an unfavorable trade/economic picture, severe stress from too many/powerful enemies, internal pork barrel politics, a desire to create a superport like Carthage or limited space availability/combined merchant-naval power like Venice, all could separately or in some combination make for a decision to break with tradition and military 'necessity'.

As to one versus multiple ports, I wouldn't take the Coruscant in the movies as a great example given that the ships involved were all 'high priority/security clearance' and therefore would have access to high government and diplomatic private landing pads that Joe Trader isn't going to get to land on.

However, keeping a monster planet like that fed and supplied would probably require a constant stream of something landing all the time all over the place with maximized efficiency.

Several of the big planets have shown multiple downports in published materials. I seem to recall Invasion Earth had several- yes, there are three on the map.

My point about starport real estate is that it would likely start as a lot of empty space in the middle of nowhere, be agreed upon between the Imperium/Insert Your Empire Here and the planet, and then get hemmed in by growth and be a point of major negotiation to expand, or have another downport defined and set aside.

Think federal reserved areas located in states like Washington DC- the surrounding states would likely resist any expansion of that federal territory. That's what I have in mind re: limits.

Also, in order to do customs right, there has to be some control point somewhere- to keep the law level weapons out, the planetary crazy in, and the cash and revenue flowing. It can and would be decentralized to one extent or another, but at some point it will not work if there isn't some clear demarcation betwixt empire and planet.

 

[Condottiere]

I couldn't find any Naval Depot worlds for the Solomani, so I selected three, plus a strategic reserve, plus a large multi-base agglomeration in the Home system

 

[savage]

So here's some of the stuff I like so far.

"Startown would cater to the crews and naive travellers, and maybe less naive travellers. And less naive natives.

Probably also easier to meet contacts and brokers for less savoury cargo."

"Startown is not going to repair your ship, though they may try to sell you one..."

"Think Subic bay, Texas street, Bangkok."

Cool. Traveller needs a couple level 1 dungeons.
A couple thoughts;
-2 used starship lots competing of course.
-Also, A zoo complex for the strange things that get confiscated.
-grav train station

 

[savage]

I couldn't find any Naval Depot worlds for the Solomani, so I selected three, plus a strategic reserve, plus a large multi-base agglomeration in the Home system

Depots appear to be a clearly Imperium Navy location. Other cultures tend to use Navy bases for everything.
From the description so far, I don't see Regina as being the local depot. Depots may even be phased out spinward.