Have you ever considered how vast the 3rd Imperium is?

[Murphy]

I just read the whole topic.

There is something highly faulty in thinking that TL-15 warrants having prototype hop drives. I mean, TL-7 obviously doesn't have prototype jump drives, nor even experimental ones!

I'd probably rate experimental (not yet useable) tech as target TL minus one. Prototype, early and mature should all be within the target TL. Or maybe mature would even be target TL plus one.

 

[savage]

prototypes

I just read the whole topic.

There is something highly faulty in thinking that TL-15 warrants having prototype hop drives.

It's a recurring theme. Suggesting that small 1-2 TL higher research efforts exist within the Imperium.

 

[mike wightman]

Cultures can reach TL21+ without ever discovering the jump drive.

The first Imperium didn't have meson gun technology or nuclear dampers, both within the r&d limits of the T5 tech charts.

The second Imperium didn't discover the meson screen.

The third Imperium is reverse engineering black globes, but listing them as TL15 is silly since without the higher TL screens to base their research upon they would never have been discovered until their true TL.

Just because T5 introduces the advanced drives it does not follow that somehow the third Imperium is secretly researching them even if the T5 rules as written allow it.

I personally don't like these rules for prototypes appearing at lower TLs, I would have preferred a system where prototypes are an indication that the next TL has been achieved and that the development cycle is wholly within the TL.

For example, the jump drive prototype is a TL9 invention, the prototype is bigger, costs more an uses more fuel. The technology matures and the standard drive becomes available - still TL9.

 

[HG_B]

The first Imperium didn't have meson gun technology or nuclear dampers, both within the r&d limits of the T5 tech charts.

T5 wasn't a rule set when the 1st Imperium was written up. So, not really a relevant point...

 

[McPerth]

T5 wasn't a rule set when the 1st Imperium was written up. So, not really a relevant point...

Same applies for 3I, for what's worth...

 

[HG_B]

Same applies for 3I, for what's worth...

Yep, trying to fit past history into a new rule set it pretty pointless.

 

[McPerth]

Yep, trying to fit past history into a new rule set it pretty pointless.

Depending on how different rules are, but usually true, it uses to need lots of retcon (and not everyone likes them)...

 

[HG_B]

Depending on how different rules are, but usually true, it uses to need lots of retcon (and not everyone likes them)...

Yes, sorry. I meant when there were significant differences that would make the history nonsensical to a noticeable degree.

 

[mike wightman]

T5 wasn't a rule set when the 1st Imperium was written up. So, not really a relevant point...

Yes, it is.

The first Imperium has been well documented before T5 was written. The TL of the first Imperium should allow meson guns according to HG2, and yet the setting restricts them to being a Terran invention.

Similarly the second Imperium has the TL to envelop meson screens accruing to HG2, yet we are told that it isa the Syleans prior to the founding of the third Imperium that makes that breakthrough.

The point I am making is that just because something is on the TL charts and the rules allow for prototypes at a lower TL it does not mean the their Imperium has secret hop drive research.

 

[HG_B]

Yes, it is.

??? Yes "what" is?

 

[Vladika]

I just read the whole topic.

There is something highly faulty in thinking that TL-15 warrants having prototype hop drives. I mean, TL-7 obviously doesn't have prototype jump drives, nor even experimental ones!

I'd probably rate experimental (not yet useable) tech as target TL minus one. Prototype, early and mature should all be within the target TL. Or maybe mature would even be target TL plus one.

There is something highly faulty in thinking that TL-15 warrants having prototype hop drives.

Traveller, from the beginning, had TL-15 as the maximum tech level for the Empire at large. To do, or imply, otherwise destroys cannon sources and disrupts the game. (I know, I know "Darrians"!) But then all to many people prefer Munchkin Land to anything else. (So long as they are the Head Munchkin.)

Personally I think you can have a very nice TL9-11 campaign and not really miss much.

I mean, TL-7 obviously doesn't have prototype jump drives, nor even experimental ones!

This is the greatest proof of your first point!

 

[Chuck Anumia]

Tech Levels

I enjoy running Mercenary campaigns
Usually the Tech levels are between 9 and 11
Occasionally My team needs a special squad/platoon geared up to TL 13 to 15 for a one off smash and grab scenario or TED decapitation mission.
10 to 11 is a high enough level for adventures of many kinds and I have even seen my TL 11 equipped troops defeat TL 12 equipped (but poorly used) enemy troops which is highly motivating to the players.

 

[McPerth]

I mean, TL-7 obviously doesn't have prototype jump drives, nor even experimental ones!

Agreed, and same can be said about fusion power (TL 8-9 in Traveller, varying with the version), even while nearly everyone believes fusion power will be achieved, there's (AFAIK) no such consensus abaut jump drives.

Traveller, from the beginning, had TL-15 as the maximum tech level for the Empire at large. To do, or imply, otherwise destroys cannon sources and disrupts the game. (I know, I know "Darrians"!) But then all to many people prefer Munchkin Land to anything else. (So long as they are the Head Munchkin.)

But in MT there were quite a few worlds with TL 16...

Also in CT/MT it was set quite in stone that jumps over 6 were not posible until ship-sized portals were discovered (TL 21, IIRC. Sorry I don't find the exact reference right now), so the appearence of hoop drives is clearly a retcon (and a major one IMHO) with many implications that, I agree, changes the setting if they are made available at all.

 

[Vladika]

But in MT there were quite a few worlds with TL 16...

I agree with you, but, in my estimation, MT "Screwed The Pooh" there. By and large, TL 15 is, and should remain, the defacto maximum TL.

(It is interesting though that the world generation formulas, even as early as CT, do allow the possibility of rolling up worlds with higher TLs than 15)

 

[aramis]

I agree with you, but, in my estimation, MT "Screwed The Pooh" there. By and large, TL 15 is, and should remain, the defacto maximum TL.

(It is interesting though that the world generation formulas, even as early as CT, do allow the possibility of rolling up worlds with higher TLs than 15)

And many ATUs were generated with TL16 and even 17 worlds because of it.

Let's see.
1D+ mods...

+6: A port +2: Size 0-1 +1: Atm 0 +0: Hyd 0 +4: Pop A +1: Gov 5	+6: A port +0: Size 5+ +1: Atm A +2: Hyd A +4: Pop A +1: Gov 5
1d6+14	1d6+14

Two ways to get to TL20. Two ways of having min TL 15.

TL generation was always the least satisfying part of Traveller world gen for me.

 

[Vladika]

And many ATUs were generated with TL16 and even 17 worlds because of it.

Let's see.
1D+ mods...

+6: A port +2: Size 0-1 +1: Atm 0 +0: Hyd 0 +4: Pop A +1: Gov 5	+6: A port +0: Size 5+ +1: Atm A +2: Hyd A +4: Pop A +1: Gov 5
1d6+14	1d6+14

Two ways to get to TL20. Two ways of having min TL 15.

TL generation was always the least satisfying part of Traveller world gen for me.

aramis has certainly proven my point. One COULD say that since CT rules made it POSSIBLE that it is cannon. I don't hold that view. Written sources have consistently, for decades, stated that the Imperium maximum TL is 15. Also that, other than specific technologies by specific races, the Imperium has the highest TL in known space.

Even then the Imperium average TL is several levels lower, including ships built for the Imperial Navy. Logic says that IF TL15, or above, were common that the IN would only build to that maximum rather than risk facing an equal, or higher, TL enemy fleet.

A TL15 fleet is going to run circles around even a TL14 fleet. This is what has kept the Impirium from successful invasion.

As for HOP drives, why wouldn't Imperial fleets not use them, at least for reinforcing fleets? I can see a Battle Rider fleet using HOP Drive Tenders to great advantage. But, by known cannon sources, that does not occur.

As Hans says, it should "make sense". Obviously it doesn't do so. IMO HOP drive and higher than TL15 totally destroy the Traveller milieu.

 

[aramis]

Even then the Imperium average TL is several levels lower, including ships built for the Imperial Navy. Logic says that IF TL15, or above, were common that the IN would only build to that maximum rather than risk facing an equal, or higher, TL enemy fleet.

A TL15 fleet is going to run circles around even a TL14 fleet. This is what has kept the Impirium from successful invasion.

As for HOP drives, why wouldn't Imperial fleets not use them, at least for reinforcing fleets? I can see a Battle Rider fleet using HOP Drive Tenders to great advantage. But, by known cannon sources, that does not occur.

As Hans says, it should "make sense". Obviously it doesn't do so. IMO HOP drive and higher than TL15 totally destroy the Traveller milieu.

Given that the majority of the "TL 15 Imperium" fleet is actually TL 14, and that TL15 is, by the timeline, relatively recent, it's possible that, circa 1117, one or two individual research projects have unreliable highly experimental hop 1 drives. If it misjumps even 10% of the time, it's too risky to use, simply due to expenses.

Further, getting the information (in a timely manner) about where to send the fleet requires a hop-drive courier. Being able to send reinforcements at J10 is irrelevant if you don't know where they're going to be needed.

Further, canon tends to imply that Yaskodray has been using multiple methods of travel faster than J6. Hop 6 is far better than fixed portals from a "where do I want him showing up" standpoint.

 

[Vladika]

Given that the majority of the "TL 15 Imperium" fleet is actually TL 14, and that TL15 is, by the timeline, relatively recent, it's possible that, circa 1117, one or two individual research projects have unreliable highly experimental hop 1 drives. If it misjumps even 10% of the time, it's too risky to use, simply due to expenses.

Further, getting the information (in a timely manner) about where to send the fleet requires a hop-drive courier. Being able to send reinforcements at J10 is irrelevant if you don't know where they're going to be needed.

Further, canon tends to imply that Yaskodray has been using multiple methods of travel faster than J6. Hop 6 is far better than fixed portals from a "where do I want him showing up" standpoint.

Agree wholly on the HOP drive question.

Strongly disagree with your strategic analysis. Any Field Grade (Army) or Flag (Navy) Officer can very accurately predict the location of a future battle. A General Staff can do even better.

There are absolute bottlenecks in any sector of a Traveller map. With good intelligence of any enemy Order of Battle and statistics of enemy ship classes, on a Strategic level you can KNOW where to concentrate your reserves. No, you will not necessarily know the exact system but you can saturate a few logical systems in a subsector. You may not decisively win the first battle, or even battles, but you will annihilate an evading fleet in due time. Shear weight of numbers and the inability of your opponent to effect long term repairs WILL win out in the end.

The McDonnell Douglas KC-10 Extender refueling Plane allows this same concentration, worldwide, for Air Force and Navy aircraft. It is a force multiplier, as would be a Battle Rider Tender with HOP drives, and for similar reasons.

Again, I do NOT advocate for those HOP drives finding their way into Traveller.

 

[robject]

There are absolute bottlenecks in any sector of a Traveller map. With good intelligence of any enemy Order of Battle and statistics of enemy ship classes, on a Strategic level you can KNOW where to concentrate your reserves. No, you will not necessarily know the exact system but you can saturate a few logical systems in a subsector. You may not decisively win the first battle, or even battles, but you will annihilate an evading fleet in due time. Shear weight of numbers and the inability of your opponent to effect long term repairs WILL win out in the end.

And that sounds like an excellent basis for a Traveller Wargame.

 

[Vladika]

And that sounds like an excellent basis for a Traveller Wargame.

Oh it is! Those used to building fleets for a one off battle in HG will get reamed in a protracted campaign.