High Guard Next: When you can't take anything else away, you know you're done

[kilemall]

Well really, HG is just a bit more individualized ship design bit of Imperium, tactics and operational maneuver is at a minimum other then fire allocation and very abstract range and shielding of the reserve.

There would need to be more granular targeting, shield/armor technology, ability to use 'space terrain' and maneuver then even in the LBBs to really get players into something more then a design competition.

Starfire has a lot of that, and achieves it with drastically different weapons at different TLs and maneuver/range. SFB is less architect since they don't let you build ST ships per se, and more maneuver/energy allocation/weapon/shield interaction, and weapons arcs play a big role.

I'm working on making my Traveller combat less of a stat/how much did you spend on stuff thing and more maneuver and clever player play and immersion in the scifi enviornment, to give the players a feel they are handling their ship and making hair raising harsh choices. It could scale to HG, but it would require a whole lot of work, with as many or more options then naval minis, and I wouldn't want to have players run more then 4 ships or 20 fighter craft max in such a game.

 

[Condottiere]

At that distance, the Emperor probably tells the presiding Sector Noble not to give away the store, and just maintain a defensible line, rather than risk a battle that would destroy the Navy's deterrence value.

 

[samuelvss]

At that distance, the Emperor probably tells the presiding Sector Noble not to give away the store, and just maintain a defensible line, rather than risk a battle that would destroy the Navy's deterrence value.

Maintaining a defensible line against major fleet operations will require major fleet operations. A few GG's may have a crazy number of SBD's; some worlds will hold, but fleets can pour through the soft spots. The admirals in contact will have to pick their fights, and fight well, as their information will be weeks old, the Sector Duke's may be months old, and the Emperor's information years old. THAT is why the quality of the admirals is critical: they go to the wrong system, the enemy gets by; they go to the right system with the wrong force package, they lose their shirt; they go to the right system at the wrong time, and the enemy gets by; they go to the right system, at the right time, with the right forces, there will be tactical factors that HG does not detail which would have effects, based ont he quality of the admiral.

I'm not saying HG is the tool to game all this, but rather that whatever system is applying the tactical should have admiral quality accounted for, at the very least, and this quality will vary greatly. Crew quality would be good, to overcome the default "everyone's a -2 at their assigned post." Specific instances would be hastily manned fleets coming out of mothballs with a mix of reservists and very green conscripts.

 

[Condottiere]

I should add, not before major battlefleets arrive to substantially change the balance of forces in the Imperium's favour.

 

[whartung]

You are comparing a game of chance with a game where chance plays a very limited role.

I'm saying that HG is not very rich tactically. Bring two identical ships, and dice will determine the outcome. Bring a DD vs a CA, dice will still determine the outcome, but the CA has the advantage.

There's an awful lot of detail in a HG design that inevitably turns in to die rolls. Simply, once the ships are in the field, the player has little to do with the actual outcome of the battle. It's basically Risk with complicated pieces.

Sooo, if skill doesn't win the day all that is left is luck. Yep, that describes many games.

Arguably, with larger HG fleets, luck plays no factor, rather it's all statistics. The impact of the edges of the bell curve in general is very little.

But in the end, there's a lot of work involved just to have it all turned in to luck and statistics. That seems to be sorta (I guess) what this thread was about, how to suss out the essence of HG, perhaps limit the complexity.

You could have an interesting strategic, galactic "risk" game where all of the pieces are cruisers, and simply use the Risk rules, but have to deal the FFW time lag.

 

[robject]

...once the ships are in the field, the player has little to do with the actual outcome of the battle. []

Arguably, with larger HG fleets, luck plays no factor, rather it's all statistics. The impact of the edges of the bell curve in general is very little.

But in the end, there's a lot of work involved just to have it all turned in to luck and statistics. That seems to be sorta (I guess) what this thread was about, how to suss out the essence of HG, perhaps limit the complexity.

Complexity in general, but your point is a very good one. In a (good) way, large HG fleets reduce to, essentially, Fifth Frontier War -- or they should (there's been no study done to prove or disprove this).


Consider Fifth Frontier War. It permits a rather large number of data points, simply because those data points are "chunked" into counters. If you're moving 20 counters around the field, you're not paying attention to all 80 data points, because you don't need to. The game is designed so that some extra complexity doesn't produce additional mental overhead.

In other words, if you design the game well, you can jam in quite a bit of complexity without affecting the game speed. The problem with High Guard is that the ship profile is overloaded, with too much to look at per ship. It's not too bad when there's only one ship. It also helps when you have several identical ships. It does not help, though, having a couple dozen different ships. You can do it -- and we all like to see variety -- but it slows things down. I can't re-enact all the classic Fifth Frontier War scenarios I want to see.


That sort of complexity, the kind that slows the game down, also makes people avoid the game. Back when I was younger, I played with High Guard, and I played *some* High Guard -- though even then I disliked the tedium of managing capital ships. But, frankly, it's been *years* since I played HG. YEARS. And that bothers me.