High Pop Industrial Agricultural Garden worlds?
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
There was a time when it was said that people living in Southern California did not trust air they couldn't see ...
I have lived in both LA and NYC.Depending on the year and the weather that day ... that could almost describe Los Angeles or New York or Tokyo during a smog alert day.
While "I" might not disagree, "THEY" would resent your description of them as "weird".
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Are the 40 billion people there because there are jobs, or the jobs are there because there are 40 billion inhabitants? I guess this is circular cause-effect (in Catalan or Spanish we'd say "a fish that bites its own tail", not sure if this expression also exists in English)
I've never understood why a world may not have breathable atmosphere and be industrialized...
At least with higher TL (let's say 10+), on the industry may be quite more eco-friendly (just the part of the power production would be, with fusion power). Industries that would be contaminant can be set in orbit (so effectively having atmosphere 0).
With the "cheap" and clean interface systems grav tech allows, I guess keeping those orbital factories would not be a problem.
And as per tainted atmospheres, I guess in 2020-21 Earth could be said to be atmosphere 7 due to biological contamination (Coronavirus) that "forced" most `people to wear a mask (as tainted atmospheres require, according their descriptions)...
The REAL reason, I suspect, is because Traveller was originally written based on "classic" (1950's) sci-fi tropes and the Urban Industrial Dystopia of "A Clockwork Orange" or "1984" is a staple of that trope based on the 19th century Industrial cities and World Wars fresh in living memory of the writers of that era.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Not just Traveller.
Gaze 20 minutes into the future and you'll see a bombed out industrial hellscape is simply the "natural order of things" when life is cheap.
Remember, one of the basic tenants of maximalist capitalism is the notion that:
- A natural forest has no value until it has been cut down and sold off, preferably at a profit.
).The correlation is that if you choose a eco sustainable path of planetary utilization, you are not an economic powerhouse.Not just Traveller.
Gaze 20 minutes into the future and you'll see a bombed out industrial hellscape is simply the "natural order of things" when life is cheap.
Remember, one of the basic tenants of maximalist capitalism is the notion that:
Apply that very basic idea on a global scale (regardless of consequences) and ... you wind up with Tainted atmospheres (to maximize profits, naturally
- A natural forest has no value until it has been cut down and sold off, preferably at a profit.
One of the story lines of my universe is the effectively new Earth, Pronoia, has chosen to limit industrial activity. As a consequence of that and population growth due to desirability and support, the tech level is dropping.
This is about 1/3 of all humanity’s population and so a big drop in Gross Species Production (GSP, just made that up, catchy future economic terms FTW). So, stuff happens including ugly things for loss leader/prestige colony support.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Depends on what your economic and policy objectives are.
If the intention is short term/quick turnaround profits (for ME!) then open strip mining and wanton pollution without regard for sustainability is DEFINITELY the way to go. One of those "I got mine, {FNORD} the rest of you LOSERS!" kinds of attitudes.
Or to put it more succinctly ...
Which is fine, if your goals are short term and more immediate.
But if your objective is something that is MEANT TO LAST ... then you're going to have to take a different path.
It's a longer road ... but ultimately, a more rewarding one.
Some would say that sustainability is its own reward, because it is The Gift That Keeps On Giving (so to speak).
Lengthen your time horizon beyond the next financial quarter or bonus period and it quickly becomes apparent that "playing the Long Game" is ultimately the best way to "play for KEEPS" ... and it will enrich the lives of more people than just the pioneers.
Not only that, but consider Industrial Airless Worlds. All that pollution in an environment that absolutely requires clean air for survival.
I'm sure there are many worlds where profit comes before clean air, but there could also be some worlds that use some of the profits with technology to have cleaner industries for an untainted atmosphere.
And just so we don't forget, some worlds might already have a tainted atmosphere before the population grew enough for it to become industrialized. I've always wondered how you could tell if an Ind. world has a tainted or untainted atmosphere before it became Ind. I know that in the world generation, a Hi Pop world with a tainted atmosphere is Ind while one untainted isn't. Was the taint already there or caused by the industries or both?
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
I've always figured that atmospheric taint functioned as a "tipping point" for (heavy) industrialization. Once the UWP tips over into the "tainted" category, the polluting industries don't need to hold back any longer and they can essentially pollute the atmosphere with abandon. After all, it's ALREADY TAINTED ... no point in crying over spilt milk (etc. etc.).
And that's not even counting the atmospheres that are "tainted" naturally in ways that are USEFUL for industrial processes (as already mentioned up thread, previously).
The population "retreats" into environmental enclosures (domed cities, underground arcologies, orbital habitats, etc.) and live lives where the ability to "touch grass" means going to a public park maintained by life support technology ... rather than going out into the wilderness to "enjoy nature" as it naturally is "outside" ...
Remember that in a multi-star trading polity, the worlds with a shirt sleeves environment (Atmosphere: 5, 6 or 8) are going to be a very small minority. There's going to be a LOT of places where the norm for habitat is either made of what amounts to bulkhead hull metal or fusion cutter tunnels through regolith ... enough so that I would dare say that such settlements would tend to be the majority, rather than the minority.
Worlds where you can just "go outside and breath the air" without needing life support equipment are a rarity, not the norm.
We Solomani are "biased" by our homeworld experiences on this matter.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
If you can terraform planets, you can cleanse the atmosphere.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Care to explain the buget outlay and duration for such a project?
Krikkitone
SOC-12
yeah, 5,6,8 would be 300~390 / 1296 (so about 25-30%) so a minority, but a significant one. so 70+% of the imperial population has to do some form of environmental protection outside. For a lot of those it is just filters/respirators, but a lot of living would be in contained.I've always figured that atmospheric taint functioned as a "tipping point" for (heavy) industrialization. Once the UWP tips over into the "tainted" category, the polluting industries don't need to hold back any longer and they can essentially pollute the atmosphere with abandon. After all, it's ALREADY TAINTED ... no point in crying over spilt milk (etc. etc.).
And that's not even counting the atmospheres that are "tainted" naturally in ways that are USEFUL for industrial processes (as already mentioned up thread, previously).
The population "retreats" into environmental enclosures (domed cities, underground arcologies, orbital habitats, etc.) and live lives where the ability to "touch grass" means going to a public park maintained by life support technology ... rather than going out into the wilderness to "enjoy nature" as it naturally is "outside" ...
Remember that in a multi-star trading polity, the worlds with a shirt sleeves environment (Atmosphere: 5, 6 or 8) are going to be a very small minority. There's going to be a LOT of places where the norm for habitat is either made of what amounts to bulkhead hull metal or fusion cutter tunnels through regolith ... enough so that I would dare say that such settlements would tend to be the majority, rather than the minority.
Worlds where you can just "go outside and breath the air" without needing life support equipment are a rarity, not the norm.
We Solomani are "biased" by our homeworld experiences on this matter.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Care to explain the buget outlay and duration for such a project?
What's the primary cost?
Energy?
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Credits and TIME.
World scale terraforming is never cheap, never easy and never fast.
Destruction, however, can be done in a few hours and only requires "a big enough rock in the wrong place at the wrong time" to make a really big mess.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
The question is if pollution is continuing.
If not, we get a bunch of shamans together, and have them perform rain dances in each district.
Precipitation would clear the air, though I'd build extensive wastewater treatment plants.
If not, we get a bunch of shamans together, and have them perform rain dances in each district.
Precipitation would clear the air, though I'd build extensive wastewater treatment plants.
The Vilani from the game Imperium did that with their steady state economy.Depends on what your economic and policy objectives are.
If the intention is short term/quick turnaround profits (for ME!) then open strip mining and wanton pollution without regard for sustainability is DEFINITELY the way to go. One of those "I got mine, {FNORD} the rest of you LOSERS!" kinds of attitudes.
Or to put it more succinctly ...
Which is fine, if your goals are short term and more immediate.
But if your objective is something that is MEANT TO LAST ... then you're going to have to take a different path.
It's a longer road ... but ultimately, a more rewarding one.
Some would say that sustainability is its own reward, because it is The Gift That Keeps On Giving (so to speak).
Lengthen your time horizon beyond the next financial quarter or bonus period and it quickly becomes apparent that "playing the Long Game" is ultimately the best way to "play for KEEPS" ... and it will enrich the lives of more people than just the pioneers.
The Terrans built built built, major worlds had 8x the output,?and ran right over them.
Rocks are terraforming techniques too1 just with consequences.Credits and TIME.
World scale terraforming is never cheap, never easy and never fast.
Destruction, however, can be done in a few hours and only requires "a big enough rock in the wrong place at the wrong time" to make a really big mess.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Why would TL9+ industry cause any polution?
Energy is clean fusion, you can extract raw materials from asteroids and the like.
Energy is clean fusion, you can extract raw materials from asteroids and the like.
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