How cheap can you make a Commerce Raider?

[Matt123]

Just slapping some numbers inspired by Robject's... in MGT...

A dedicated commerce escort, designed to CRUNCH similar scale ships

I haven't got MGT unfortunately, but I can see myself picking it up at some stage.

I think your design philosophy for a commerce escort may be flawed. Prices may not be compatible between CT & MGT, but the cost differance between MCr500 & MCr300 is quite large. Additionally you will need a lot of these escorts to catch & destroy one commerce raider, making the cost disparity much, much worse.

But it would possibly make a good Raider hunter. These would be far less numerous than escorts, but would need the ability if it locates one, to catch & destroy/cripple the raider in a turn or two.

IMHO destroying the raider is less important for escorts than getting the merchants through safely and hopefully causing ongoing damage and battle repair attrition to any raiders encounted. The main requirement for an escort is therefore to survive & block raider attacks.

In HG at least, blocking attacks on merchants in the reserve is automatic, so long as you retain offensive armament (& IMTU mobility).

But can I do better? I'll have a dabble tonight & see how cheap I can get a cheap escort, designed to engage raiders, survive & protect the merchants in its charge.

Cheers

 

[aramis]

It's a matter of economies; it could be cheapened quite a bit by chopping the thrust, but the thrust gives it quite a bit of punch. And with both max armor, and weapons that can kill itself, it's able to rapidly KILL almost anything in it's own class in a turn or two. It's NOT a hunter-of-freighters, but the kind of dedicated close escort a cartel will hire... It's gonna make the crew glow, and the PA's make lasers look puny. Don't obey it's request to deviate from an intercept, and she'll open up past laser range, and make you regret life.

For comparison, Beam lasers are 2D medium range, and pulse 1d short. Missles do 1d6, and nukes 2d6+crew. No better turret weapon exists in MGT. She's a shark. Short legs in jump, just enough to go with... but with a second jump in-case of misjump or major fleet engagement. The Barbette pair insures she's got patrol potential, too.
Note that each weapon has to overcome target armor, so the first 18 points of laser, and 1st 15 of non-meson, don't count.

 

[Whipsnade]

IMHO destroying the raider is less important for escorts than getting the merchants through safely and hopefully causing ongoing damage and battle repair attrition to any raiders encounted. The main requirement for an escort is therefore to survive & block raider attacks.

Matt,

That's how it's worked historically. The scales have always been tipped towards defending the merchants rather than destroying the raider. That defense has involved preventing attacks by keeping raiders at bay or interfering with attacks as the time needed to hunt down a raider and destroy it is not usually available.

Defend against or divert attacks first, damage or destroy raiders second.

In HG at least, blocking attacks on merchants in the reserve is automatic, so long as you retain offensive armament (& IMTU mobility).

That's one of the things HG2 doesn't model too well. HG2's "Line and Reserve" mechanism allows too perfect a defense. LBB:2 does a little better and Mayday too. You can fire at missile counters in Mayday and LBB:2 let's you lay down sand that effects all fire passing through it.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Matt123]

That's one of the things HG2 doesn't model too well. HG2's "Line and Reserve" mechanism allows too perfect a defense.

As an abstracted system it works to a point, that point being 1 or 2 ships - perhaps immobile - holding off a horde of attackers. Adding mobility as well as offensive weapons as requirements helps (& is intuitive). The other thing to add is to limit the number of attackers that can be blocked by any one ship (pick a number! Say 10, with larger ships blocked first).

But that doesn't replace the need for an area defence function to allow say Fleet Escorts to do thier cannon described role of intercepting missiles & fighters attacking a high value target in the Line.

But back to escorts & raiders, I don't have a problem with raiders artificially forced to deal with the escort first (the merchants generally being in the reserve). That the escort is there, means the raider has achieved (IMHO) its primary task.

You could say my view is that raiders don't have to kill merchants, just threaten to. And escorts don't have to kill raiders, merely protect merchants from the threat.

 

[aramis]

Fundamentally, I see several types of escorts...
1) Sacraficial Lambs: escorts designed to be sacrificed to raiders while the real prize goes away.
2) Point defenders: essentially designed to stay close, and fire at incoming missiles, and secondarily, to fire at incoming ships.
3) Counter-interceptors: designed to take the fight away from the escorted ships by peeling off.
4) Q-Ships: blow their doors off when they move in close

Q-ships are hard to do in most editions; since there are not rules I've seen for concealing 50 and 100 ton bays. Whole point is to bring overwheling force at point blank.

Counter-interceptors need speed in excess of the raiders... because the higher acceleration ship sets the engagement point (within a range). Their whole point is to make getting to the actual targets too expensive.

Point defenders make it hard to hurt the target by fighting from right close. Their goal is usually to hold until local high speed SDBs can come chase off the harrassers.

Sacraficial Lambs are simply loaded with low-value cargos. When challenged, they drop back, and everyone else runs. Works against real pirates, but not so well against commerce raiders.... because raiders will simply shoot it en passant as they pursue the rest.

 

[mike wightman]

In a LBB2 universe quite an effective 'Q-ship' can be achieved by replacing every launch on every Fat Trader in the convoy with a 20t 6g fighter of identical hull form (remember the catapult launched fighters carried by some merchants during WW2?).

I would also upgrade a couple of the FTs to have improved m-drives, computers, weaponry and carry additional 10t fighters.

 

[Whipsnade]

But back to escorts & raiders, I don't have a problem with raiders artificially forced to deal with the escort first (the merchants generally being in the reserve). That the escort is there, means the raider has achieved (IMHO) its primary task.

Matt,

Agreed. Commerce raiding is a form of strategic warfare. Each side hopes to force the other to divert and/or expend assets to defend against a threat that out of proportion to the assets diverted and/or expended to produce the threat. A single raider known or even suspected to operating in a region will trigger the deployment of many more escorts, pickets, and other defenders.

You could say my view is that raiders don't have to kill merchants, just threaten to. And escorts don't have to kill raiders, merely protect merchants from the threat.

Again, agreed. And defending merchants is going to involve interfering with and defending against raider weapon strikes first and chasing/damaging/destroying raiders second because defending merchants from the threat is the priority.

Whether we're using HG2's "Line & Reserve" mechanism, LBB:2's and Power Projection's ability to launch sand which interferes with all fire crossing, LBB:2's and Power Projjection's ECM rules, or LBB:2's, Power Projection's, and Mayday's rules for firing at missiles, an escort in proximity to the merchants in question can both defend those vessels from weapon strikes and strike in turn at the raider with it's own weaponry. A picket, which must remain in a certain area, can only perform those two tasks while the merchants remain in that area.

Thus, in some circumstance, an escort is a better use of limited assets than a picket because an escort - which moves along with the target being defended - can always defend it's charges and attack the raider while a picket can only defend merchants or attack raiders when both happen to remain in range.

A picket out at Earth's jump limit might very well be tangling with a raider, but that picket cannot deploy sand against the lasers/missiles or fire at missiles that same raider can easily direct at the merchant sitting in Earth orbit.


Regards,
Bill

 

[E.D.Quibell]

How about these popping out of every Merchant? Scott Kellogg presented the Viper:

The Viper: put some fangs in your Air/Raft bay...

"Pirates? Corsairs? The Viper class escort fighter is ready. You say you can't afford an escort? Here's the one to fit the bill. For about what you pay for two triple turrets, here is a six G capable, multi-role fighter that fits in... Your Air/Raft bay!

A three ton fighter, the Viper is capable of taking on all comers. She's light, fast and carries six tons of ordinance. Since its procurement in 1108, The Viper has found its place in all branches of the Imperial military. To the Navy, it serves as an escort fighter. To the Army and COACC, it's a ground attack and air superiority fighter. To the Scouts it is a light penetration probe. To the Marines it's a multi-role fighter vital to drop troop operations. The Viper has served the Imperium well since the Fifth Frontier War."
-From the advertising brochure

Development
The Imperium is made up of thousands of worlds. Few of these have ship yards, and only the cream of these are capable of producing tech fifteen ships. For example, in the Spinward Marches, there are only three planets capable of producing tech level fifteen ships for the Imperium, three capable of producing tech fourteen ships, and
seven which produce tech thirteen ships out of the ninety one Imperial planets which build ships in the sector.

But there is little market for a tech level nine ship. But how can they improve their facilities if they don't sell what they can build?

Normally, the Imperium subsidizes these facilities out of the Navy budget with nearly no return. So in the tighter budgets of the Fifth Frontier War, the Navy issued an ultimatum: no more subsidies until they build something we can use!

The Scout service however, does use the lesser starports to a large extent.

Without the Navy subsidy, the Scout service would suffer. A specification was issued for a craft that could easily be built that could find a good market.

The specification was almost totally forgotten. No one had any clear ideas on what to design, and the plan was nearly abandoned. However, a young designer named Hloch finally pieced together what was to become the now famous Viper escort fighter.

Most merchant ships are unarmed, allowing the commerce raiding of the Zhodani to badly maul the Imperial commercial fleets. But arming a ship is an expensive proposition, and then it still comes down to the merchant ship coming under fire. The idea was put forward to build a fighter that could easily be carried on a merchantman, carry the fight away from the ship and allow it to get through undamaged. Thus the tiny fighter was born. Designed to fit inside an Air/Raft bay, the Viper could be carried by almost all ships.

Yet, Hloch did more than just come up with the Viper concept, he made it work. He turned a vague specification into one of the best fighters of its class the Imperium has had for centuries. Before he even touched the draft computer he went out and interviewed combat veteran pilots and ground crews asking, `What do you want in a fighter?' and, `How can you improve maintenance?'
Pilot's have said, `The guy who designed the Viper had wings!' and it is true. Hloch is an Ael Yael from Jayelya, an avian race of far better flying ability than the Droyne. Millions of years have evolved the avionics in his head, and as a designer of space craft, it
shows.

Cockpit Design
Advanced fighter are by their very nature extremely complex machines. The complexity of their systems place a heavy load on the pilot, limiting the amount of time the pilot has to concentrate on situational awareness. Thus, a key problem in designing a fighter is the Pilot/Machine interface. The pilot must have critical information available without getting swamped in data. The less time the pilot has to scan panels, the more time he can devote to tactical operations.

Often times, cockpit designs swamp the pilot: the Rampart (Rebellion Source book), the Iramda, the Magnum, the Sourz, and the FS-15 all have vast arrays of holodynamic link panels. The ratio of panels per pilot is as low as ten to one in the FS-15 to as much as
eighty three to one in the Sourz.

The Viper cockpit is streamlined in this regard by using two Heads Up Displays (HUD). One is devoted to sensors, weaponry and navigation: the Attack HUD, while the other displays system status: the System HUD. The System HUD is mounted to the right of the
centrally mounted Attack HUD.

The flight controls are designed around the Hands On Throttle And Stick (HOTAS) philosophy. This enables the pilot to control the combat and attack phases of flight without taking his hands off the controls.

The HOTAS system is extremely necessary in the tech level nine Viper, where the pilot is without inertial compensators and would has difficulty in moving about the cockpit during manuevers.

Also included in the software of the computers is a voice command and response system. Great pains were gone through so that the computer could understand both the meaning and urgency of spoken commands, including the use of sudden vague expletives. It is also able to synthesize correct responses.
Another consideration that has been added to the cockpit is its comfort so as to minimize pilot fatigue. Twenty four hours in a cockpit will erode the performance of any pilot. Therefore, provisions have been made in seating and flight control positions for a wide variety of pilot sizes and anatomies. With minor adjustments, the seat
and instrument panels can be configured for pilots ranging in size from Droyne to Aslan. As the chief designer is of a minor race he insisted that the cockpit be suitable to as many races as possible. This was achieved with some degree of success in that the HOTAS system is built to be operable by a minimum of a three fingered hand. It feels slightly less comfortable to the human hand than a specially designed human grip but it is adjustable and can conform to the shape of the operators hand. (The design was actually optimized for the hands of Humaniti and those of Ael Yael.)

Of course there are limits to the design: Hivers have found the controls nearly unmanageable while Vegans have difficulty handling the controls without complete inertial compensation. Virushi cannot fit inside the cockpit. Racially customized designs are not unknown. However, no allowance for K'Kree anatomy was made because it was
decided there would be no market for anything as small as a Viper in the Two Thousand Worlds.

It is interesting to note that the Viper has earned a healthy respect along the borders of the Two Thousand Worlds being the "Natter G'naak" or "Winged Carnivore". The nickname has caused some amusement to the carnivorous avian chief designer.

The HUDs use color graphics to display information. The colors used can be adjusted to the optimum wavelength response curve of the pilot's eyes depending upon what the pilot's race considers to be the visible spectrum.

The Viper also makes use of one item not used by any other space craft. It carries a rocket ejection pod. The cockpit is not only the most comfortable and easy to use, it is the safest of any fighter craft used by the Imperium.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Maintenance
A typical complaint from ground crews of fighter craft is that ships equipment typically fills every last cubic centimeter. While this is economical in terms of materials, it is insane in terms of repair. In some fighter craft, the thrusters must be dismounted in order to change the fuel filters on the power plant.

The Viper, while compact as possible, manages to get around this problem by having an oversized hull. All systems are provided with convenient access panels, indeed some of the panels are sufficient for an engineer to crawl inside the hull. Try doing that on a Rampart!

There are some drawbacks to the tiny fighters design. The requirement to make the fighter as small as possible as cheap as possible led to the decisison to cut back on the backup systems. Typically, spacecraft carry three identical computers. However the Viper carries one main computer and two 0/bis computers as backups. The fighter is fully flyable on backup systems for most combat missions, but it loses much of its combat effectiveness against spacecraft. A further complaint is by the ordainance crews. As the three ton Viper normally operates out of four ton Air/Raft bays, there is not a great deal of room to crawl over the hull arming the hard points. This is especially true with the Navy standard load of three multiple missile racks putting a total of eighteen anti-spacecraft
missiles on the hull.

All systems are compatible and interchangeable. A Tech level nine fusion plant can easily replace up to a tech level eleven one with no adverse effects to performance while the anti-grav drive units on all models are fully interchangable. The systems were carefully designed so that a fighter could be repaired at any starport regardless
of tech level.

This has made it popular with the services as it is not necessary to haul a fighter all the way to a tech fifteen planet to get it repaired.

Service History
When first unveiled to the service brass, the fighter was looked on as useless. The Navy looked at it and appraised it as a lightly armed Air/Raft of no value whatsoever to their mission which at the time was to destroy the Zhodani Fleet.

For once, bureaucracy did the right thing, credits had already been outlaid for the project, so with reputations on the line theproject was put forward despite Naval opposition.

The Scouts swallowed it whole: a light, fast craft capable of being carried aboard a scout ship, repairable at so many of the lower tech level planets where scout bases are. The Scouts had good success the with the tiny fighter, but the performance was discounted by the Navy as irrelevant because the Scouts were using it in missions
specific to Scout operations.

The Navy reluctantly used the Vipers as trainers. The Fifth Frontier War created a heavy demand for trained pilots. Here was a cheap ship that is easy to fly, so they used it for the training of their Naval and Marine pilots.

This was the decision that put the fighter in history. When the pilots had been trained on Viper's and were assigned to fly Ramparts, Magnums, and FS-15's they nearly mutinied. The Viper was so much preferred by pilots it eventually saw front line service. The first action where Navy Vipers played a part was at the relief of Yorbund on 083-1109. Suddenly, the Navy changed its tune. The Viper was reappraised and it then became a front line Navy fighter. The number of Viper aces began to climb and soon the Ramparts were hard pressed to keep their kill ratio close to that of the Viper.

Once it was accepted by the Navy, the Marines made use of the Viper's versatile hardpoints mounting everything from tech level six iron bombs to tech level fifteen fusion guns mounted in pods. Probably the most original use of the hard points was in the mounting of drop capsules. The Viper could easily dive bomb three marines on target. With drop capsules retained, it could also act as a extraction vehicle. Many marines owe their lives to the tiny hypersonic medevac Viper.

Quickly, COACC forces realized the ability of the Viper. By this point in the War, nearly all the runways were pocked with craters. Suddenly, an space capable hypersonic VTOL looked very appealing and indeed it is cheaper than some comparable fighters and requires less maintenance. Even the Army obtained a few Vipers as scout vehicles
for the air cavalry.

The Navy finally found a proper role to utilize the fighter. Vipers were put aboard merchant ships to act as escort fighters to convoys thus lightening the demand on escort vessels usable elsewhere.

It is this role in which it is most commonly found. Merchant ships can easily obtain a Viper, and considering that the agile Viper can keep raiders at a distance from the slow merchantman it tends to keep losses down and is considered a fully viable alternative to arming the hardpoints with turrets.

With an admirable service history in the Fifth Frontier War, the Viper managed to live down the initial impression of the brass, becoming a valued part of the Imperial inventory. Indeed, the opinion of the fighter has swung around completely. The Viper has become the
symbol of Naval strength to many in its role as the fighter of choice for the Imperial Blue Angels Flight Demonstration Team.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Viper TL15 Escort Fighter

CraftID: Light Fighter Type FF, TL15, MCr 7.29594
Hull: (3/7) Disp=3, Config=6AF, Armor=40G, Unload=47.1424,
Load=53.2869
Power: (1/2) 86.04 Mw Fusion, Dur=24hrs
Loco: (1/2), Agrav Manuver=6G, Agility=6 NOE=190, Cruise=2835kph,
Top=3780kph
Commo: Radio=System
Sensors: A-EMS=Planet, P-EMS=InterPlanet,
ActObjScn=Diff, ActObjPin=Diff,
PasEngScn=Rout
Off: Fusalage HPoints=3
Def: DefDM=+11
Control: Computer=3+0bis*2, HUD*2,
Accom: Crew=1, Seat=Roomy Extended, Rocket Escape Pod, Env=Basic
Env, Basic is, Extend Is, Inertial Comp, Grav Plate,
Other: Fuel=2.615Kl ObjSize=Small, EMlevel=Faint

Scott Kellogg

Viper TL14 Escort Fighter

CraftID: Light Fighter Type FF, TL14, MCr 8.18294
Hull: (3/7) Disp=3, Config=6AF, Armor=40G, Unload=302.54, Load=335.13
Power: (2/4) 126 Mw Fusion, Dur=24hrs
Loco: (1/2), Agrav Manuver=6G, Agility=6 NOE=180, Cruise=2835kph,
Top=3780kph
Commo: Radio=System
Sensors: A-EMS=Planet, P-EMS=InterPlanet,
ActObjScn=Diff, ActObjPin=Diff,
PasEngScn=Rout
Off: Fusalage HPoints=3
Def: DefDM=+11
Control: Computer=3+0bis*2, HUD*2,
Accom: Crew=1, Seat=Roomy Extended, Rocket Escape Pod, Env=Basic
Env, Basic is, Extend Is, Inertial Comp, Grav Plate,
Other: Fuel=1.68Kl ObjSize=Small, EMlevel=Faint

Scott Kellogg

Viper TL13 Escort Fighter

CraftID: Light Fighter Type FF, TL13, MCr 8.44194
Hull: (3/7) Disp=3, Config=6AF, Armor=40F, Unload=80.1116,
Load=86.2292
Power: (2/4) 126 Mw Fusion, Dur=24hrs
Loco: (1/2), Agrav Manuver=6G, Agility=6 NOE=170, Cruise=2835kph,
Top=3780kph
Commo: Radio=System
Sensors: A-EMS=Planet, P-EMS=InterPlanet,
ActObjScn=Diff, ActObjPin=Diff,
PasEngScn=Rout
Off: Fusalage HPoints=3
Def: DefDM=+11
Control: Computer=3+0bis*2, HUD*2,
Accom: Crew=1, Seat=Roomy Extended, Rocket Escape Pod, Env=Basic
Env, Basic is, Extend Is, Inertial Comp, Grav Plate,
Other: Fuel=1.68Kl ObjSize=Small, EMlevel=Faint

Scott Kellogg



Viper TL12 Escort Fighter

CraftID: Light Fighter Type FF, TL12, MCr 9.85294
Hull: (3/7) Disp=3, Config=6AF, Armor=40F, Unload=119.9575,
Load=126.0607
Power: (2/4) 122.76 Mw Fusion, Dur=24hrs
Loco: (1/2), Agrav Manuver=6G, Agility=4 NOE=160, Cruise=2835kph,
Top=3780kph
Commo: Radio=System
Sensors: A-EMS=Planet, P-EMS=InterPlanet,
ActObjScn=Diff, ActObjPin=Diff,
PasEngScn=Rout
Off: Fusalage HPoints=3
Def: DefDM=+9
Control: Computer=3+0bis*2, HUD*2,
Accom: Crew=1, Seat=Roomy Extended, Rocket Escape Pod, Env=Basic
Env, Basic is, Extend Is, Inertial Comp, Grav Plate,
Other: Fuel=1.473Kl ObjSize=Small, EMlevel=Faint

Scott Kellogg

Viper TL11 Escort Fighter

CraftID: Light Fighter Type FF, TL11, MCr 9.83152
Hull: (3/7) Disp=3, Config=6AF, Armor=40E, Unload=104.9752,
Load=111.0514
Power: (2/4) 93.3 Mw Fusion, Dur=24hrs
Loco: (1/2), Agrav Manuver=6G, Agility=3 NOE=150, Cruise=2835kph,
Top=3780kph
Commo: Radio=System
Sensors: A-EMS=Planet, P-EMS=InterPlanet,
ActObjScn=Diff, ActObjPin=Diff,
PasEngScn=Rout
Off: Fusalage HPoints=3
Def: DefDM=+8
Control: Computer=3+0bis*2, HUD*2,
Accom: Crew=1, Seat=Roomy Extended, Rocket Escape Pod, Env=Basic
Env, Basic is, Extend Is, Inertial Comp, Grav Plate,
Other: Fuel=1.127Kl ObjSize=Avg, EMlevel=Faint

Scott Kellogg

Viper TL10 Escort Fighter

CraftID: Light Fighter Type FF, TL10, MCr 12.13052
Hull: (3/7) Disp=3, Config=6AF, Armor=40E, Unload=105.0875,
Load=111.1664
Power: (2/4) 93.3 Mw Fusion, Dur=24hrs
Loco: (1/2), Agrav Manuver=6G, Agility=3 NOE=140, Cruise=2835kph,
Top=3780kph
Commo: Radio=System
Sensors: A-EMS=Planet, P-EMS=InterPlanet,
ActObjScn=Diff, ActObjPin=Diff,
PasEngScn=Rout
Off: Fusalage HPoints=3
Def: DefDM=+8
Control: Computer=3+0bis*2, HUD*2,
Accom: Crew=1, Seat=Roomy Extended, Rocket Escape Pod, Env=Basic
Env, Basic is, Extend Is, Inertial Comp, Grav Plate,
Other: Fuel=1.127Kl ObjSize=Avg, EMlevel=Faint

Scott Kellogg

Viper TL9 Escort Fighter

CraftID: Light Fighter Type FF, TL9, MCr 8.92992
Hull: (3/7) Disp=3, Config=6AF, Armor=40D, Unload=108.6239,
Load=114.7028
Power: (2/4) 93.3 Mw Fusion, Dur=24hrs
Loco: (1/2), Agrav Manuver=6G, Agility=3 NOE=130, Cruise=2835kph,
Top=3780kph
Commo: Radio=System
Sensors: AW-RADAR=Planet, LADAR=Dist, RDF, Laser Sensor, AdvImgEnh,
Passive IR, ActObjScn=Diff, ActObjPin=Diff,
PasEngScn=Diff
Off: Fusalage HPoints=3
Def: DefDM=+8
Control: Computer=3+0bis*2, HUD*2,
Accom: Crew=1, Seat=Roomy Extended, Rocket Escape Pod, Env=Basic
Env, Basic is, Extend Is
Other: Fuel=1.127Kl ObjSize=Avg, EMlevel=Faint
Remarks: The tech nine Viper is the most different from the series
in that it lacks the EMS systems, the inertial compensators and the
grav plates. As such it is not reccomended that a higher tech pilot
simply jump in. Six G manuvers can be tiring and even dangerous if one
does not know how to brace one's self properly.

Scott Kellogg

 

[Whipsnade]

Ewan,

It's sounds very interesting, but do you have any stats?


Regards,
Bill

Edit: Wow... that was very weird. I know I posted my question about stats after what became your first post regarding the Viper, yet my post showed up after your two posts following the first. Weird...

 

[Matt123]

Here's my interpretation of a cheap Light Escort, intended to be used widely in the commerce protection role. Vs military ships, it will no doubt perform poorly, but vs raiders it should inflict a little un-reapairable damage whilst the damage the Skoda takes in return can easily be fixed.

***** Skoda Class Light Escort *****

The Skoda Class of Light Escort is intended to provide an economic answer to the raider scourge. Its primary role is to hold off the raider, protecting its charges until they finish refueling and jump to the next system.

LE-0110 LE-3624571-830000-20002-0 Mcr254 300 tons
Batteries____________1_____2___6_____Crew=9. TL13.
Fuel=105 tons. EP=15. Agility=2. Size mod=-1. Ttl Def Mod=-3. Computer=7.
Cargo=2. Staterooms=5. Passengers=0, Troops=0. Pulse lasers
Streamlined. Fuel Scoops. Fuel Purification Plant. 10 ton Launch.
Emergency Agility=4. Class Development cost=MCr66.7.

Ton MCr Component
300.0 24.00 Hull, Flattened Sphere, Streamlined
54.00 59.40 Armour-8
09.00 36.00 JD2
33.00 16.50 MD4
30.00 90.00 PP5
0.000 00.30 Fuel Scoops
05.00 00.03 Fuel Purification Plant
90.00 00.00 Jump Fuel (1x J2, 1x J1)
15.00 00.00 PP Fuel (28 days)
20.00 01.50 Bridge
09.00 80.00 Computer model-7
01.00 00.75 Triple Turret mixed, 1x Sandcaster-3 battery
00.00 02.00 _______________, 2x Pulse-2 Batteries
02.00 04.50 2x Triple Turrets, 6x missile-2 Batteries
20.00 02.50 5x Staterooms (9 crew, Captain, Pilot, Navigator, Medic, 2 Engineers, 3 Gunners)
10.00 00.02 Launch/Lifeboat launch facilities. (Cost of Launch not included)
02.00 00.00 Cargo
300.0 317.5 less 20% class discount = MCr254

The Skoda is designed to fight and occupy a raider over an extended period, inflicting light damage maybe more and escape by jump once the Skoda's convoy is safe.

Strategically the Light Escort Class wears down raiders attempting to close with convoys. But, using the Skoda as a picket, generally fails as it is not capable of securing the jump exit point (merchants then repeatedly arrive at short range to the raider). Generally the Skoda is allocated one per convoy, two on busy routes where there is high raider risk.


***** Commentary *****
Whether the Skoda lives up to my own hype, well, the proofs in the testing. I'll mock up a combat between the Raider & the Light Escort tonight & post it. I suspect the extra J1 worth of jump fuel won't be there when the getaway in needed, but hey, I'm an optimist...

I'll be changing the weapon load-out on the raider to include nuclear missiles, the last combat simulation demonstrated the raider needs them against merchants. They'll help vs the escort too.

 

[Matt123]

Just a note on very light fighters, in CT at least a reasonable computer size plus the power plant to power it means you can't fit one in your air-raft bay!

A TL15 fighter with computer model-4 for example (factor-3 as the ship has no bridge), is 4 ton & needs a 2 ton power plant to power it. This fighter comes in at 13 ton.

With effectively no computer, no agility, missiles & MD4 a CT fighter is 7.65 ton, but would perform pretty poorly vs a raider or even a merchant.

 

[Matt123]

On this occasion our cheap Budhyi raider has spotted a convoy, one of many in the last few months that have been observed to have an escort. Damn. Not attacking escorts, is causing crew frustration on board the raider, the crew wants to achieve tangible results not mope about watching re-runs of soaps. The Captain finds himself weighing his orders to not engage escorts vs the need to relieve the frustration felt by his crew.

He decides to go for it. The escort has been identified as a Skoda, a cheap, shodily built escort rushed out of the shipyards in 28 weeks and crewed with poorly trained reservists. The worst case scenario is the escort prevents them from closing with the merchants.

The merchant convoy moving at 2g has appeared on sensors half way to the GG for refueling. The Navigator estimates we will close to combat range in 2 hours, intercepting the convoy approximately half way through its refuelling run. Time available for combat is therefore (3 turns of refuelling plus 9 turns for the convoy to get back to the 100d limit) 3 hours. Plenty of time...

***** changes to the Budhyi Light Raider *****
The weapon load out has swapped the 6 pulse-2 batteries for 6 missile-2 batteries, in the process freeing up EP's boosting agility to 2. Otherwise the Budhyi is as before.

Turn 1. All combat is simultaneous.
The Skoda moves to place the convoy in Reserve, allowing them to complete refuelling.

Budhyi fires 6 x missile-2 needing 6+ to hit, modified to (def mod -3, computer diff -2) 11+ (8.333%) giving 0.5 hits. 1x sand-3 battery must be defeated, needing 6+ modified to (computer diff -2) 8+ (41.6%), giving 0.208 hits rounded to 0 hits.

Not a good start!


Skoda fire for turn 1. 6x missile-2 batteries, hits on 6+ modified to (defensive modifier -3, computer dif +2) 7+ (58.333%) giving 3.5 hits. 1x fusion-5 battery must be defeated on 8+ modified to (computer dff -2) 6+ (72.2%) giving 2.527 hits. 2 sand-4 batteries must be defeated on 7+ modified to (computer dif -2) 5+ (83.333%) giving 2.1 hits, rounded to 2 hits with nuclear warheads.

2x Pulse-2 batteries, hitting on 7+ modified to (defensive mod -3, long range -1, computer diff +2) 9+ (27.7%) giving 0.554 hits, rounded to 1 hit.

Nuclear Missile damage, 2 hits, first the surface explosion table and subject to a +0 modifier (+6 for weapon factor under 9, -6 for Nucs). The range of results is from 2 to 12.
Damage (die roll - ??/36)...... hits (fractions of 2 hits)
Critical (2 – 1/36) … 0.055
Interior Explosion (3,4,5 – 7/36)... 0.388
Maneuver-2 (6 – 5/36)..... 0.277
Fuel-3 (7 – 6/36)..... 0..333
Weapon-3 (8 – 5/36)..... 0.277
Maneuver-1 (9, 12 – 5/36)..... 0.277
Fuel-2 (10 – 3/36)..... 0.166 (fuel hits 0.5, fuel loss 1.331%)
Weapon-2 (11 – 2/36)..... 0.111 (weapon hits 0.388, factor losses 1.053)
Damage results are fuel-3 (Fuel loss 3%, minimum 10 tons) and given the equal likelihood of either an interior explosion or a weapon hit, I flipped a coin and got a weapon hit (1x sand-4 battery destroyed).

Nuclear Missile Damage, 2 hits, radiation table and subject to a +6 modifier (+6 for weapon factor under 9). the range of results is from 8 to 18.
Computer-2 (2,3,5 – 7/36)... 0.388
Weapon-4 (4 – 3/36)... 0.166
Weapon-3 (6 – 5/36)... 0.277
Computer-1 (7,9 – 10/36)... 0.555 (computer hits 0.943, factor losses 1.331)
Weapon-2 (8,10 – 8/36)... 0.444
Weapon-1 (11,12 – 3/36)... 0.166 (weapon hits 1.053, factor losses 2.55)
Damage results are Computer-1 (reduces to computer model-4), Weapon-3 (Energy weapon reduced to Fusion-2)

The one Pulse Laser hit is on the surface explosion table and subject to a +4 modifier (+6 for weapon factor under 9, -2 for Pulse laser). The range of results is from 6 to 16.
Maneuver-2 (2 – 1/36)..... 0.027
Fuel-3 (3 – 2/36)..... 0.055
Weapon-3 (4 – 3/36)..... 0.083
Maneuver-1 (5, 8 – 9/36)..... 0.25 (maneuver hits 0.277, factor loss 0.304)
Fuel-2 (6 – 5/36)..... 0.138
Weapon-2 (7 – 6/36)..... 0.166
Fuel-1 (9, 12 – 5/36)..... 0.138 (fuel hits 0.331, fuel loss 0.578%)
Weapon-1 (10, 11 – 5/36)..... 0.138 (weapon hits 0.387, factor losses 0.719)
Damage result is Weapon-1 (attacker destroys a missile battery).

In one turn the Budhyi Light Raider is seriously regretting getting involved. The most telling damage is the Computer hit, meaning the Budhyi will find it harder to hit & penetrate the Skoda, whilst Budhyi's active defences also get less effective.

The Skoda meantime, hasn't been touched.

***** Summary *****
For the sake of saving bandwidth, I'll stop here. The 600 tn raider is clearly out-classed by the 300 ton escort, both at TL13. She was a 50/50 coin toss away from an internal explosion.

The most telling feature was the Skoda's higher computer factor. And in a way, this battle was too decisive indicating (to me at least) that the Skoda is over spec'ed. The Skoda only needed to hold up the raider, and only a little damage to the raider will likely cause it to retire. Even if it causes more damage to the escort. Obviously using a military spec'ed escort for convoy duty will be extreme overkill.

Keeping in mind the need for many more (10-20 times or more?) Light Escorts than Raiders, I reckon I can get them cheaper, still effective vs cheap raiders, but perhaps either at 200 ton or with only a model-6 computer.

I am also starting to wonder whether Q-ships can be Far Traders with military spec computers. Might be enough to ruin Budhyi's day...

For that matter, stick a military spec computer in the cargo bay of a Tukera Freighter. It would be cheap(ish) & easy, the Tukera Freighter could then escort others. Worth some thought perhaps.

 

[flykiller]

whole lotta talk and speculation and assertion, here and on the previous thread.

anyone want to game this out? I'll referee. we'll use my grand high admiral system, ain't hard, I'll walk you through it as we go. just think - you get to make strategic and tactical decisions, and take responsibility for the results, see what really happens.

or (grin) do we just talk?

 

[Matt123]

whole lotta talk and speculation and assertion, here and on the previous thread.

anyone want to game this out? I'll referee. we'll use my grand high admiral system, ain't hard, I'll walk you through it as we go. just think - you get to make strategic and tactical decisions, and take responsibility for the results, see what really happens.

or (grin) do we just talk?

lol, getting people to test thier theories is part of the 'talk'. Many theories start beng teased apart in the face of smoke tests.

The main theory through this thread is that uber escorts would toast cheap raiders - very true. My theory is that uber escorts would be way too expensive in the volumes needed to tackle one very cheap commerce raider. (20 to 1 or greater?).

Additionally uber escorts aren't needed to ensure the convoy gets through.

Currently, in my quest to see how cheap I can get an escort, I'm wondering how a computer upgraded Far Trader would fair against a cheap raider. If the rules support an upgrade (IIRC they do) & the FT does ok, cheap raider countermeasures become 'cheapish' (at 55MCr per model-6 computer or 70MCr for a model-7, plus power pack at 30 or 42MCr & fitting etc, vs 300MCr for the raider). I intend to flesh this out later. RL beckons!

 

[flykiller]

Additionally uber escorts aren't needed to ensure the convoy gets through.

scenario. zho/imp war, fleets jockying for position relative to jewell/jewell/spinwardmarches. necessary supplies are piling up at regina at the head of the supply pipeline, they have to get to jewell. if they do the imps can launch an offensive, if they don't the zhos can push further forward.

you wanna play zho or imp?

 

[robject]

The main theory through this thread is that uber escorts would toast cheap raiders - very true. My theory is that uber escorts would be way too expensive in the volumes needed to tackle one very cheap commerce raider. (20 to 1 or greater?).

As with all things, economics is the driving factor. Makes me wonder what percentage range of revenue is meaningful to allocate to protection. More than 0%, less than X%. And that value, whatever it is, can slide upward as risk increases.

Of course, we also get to pretend that we know how much those cargoes are worth.

 

[Matt123]

As with all things, economics is the driving factor. Makes me wonder what percentage range of revenue is meaningful to allocate to protection. More than 0%, less than X%. And that value, whatever it is, can slide upward as risk increases.

There are several things at play. The expected demand for the product, which is largely independent from its value in wartime cargo scheduling. The estimated risk from raiders. And lastly the publicly percieved risk from raiders.

Of the three, public perception (including the merchant trade) will provide most of the pressure on commanders to protect merchant traffic. Given that raider successes are a certainty, it takes a brave or more likely foolish commander to ignore that public pressure.

 

[robject]

There are several things at play. The expected demand for the product, which is largely independent from its value in wartime cargo scheduling. The estimated risk from raiders. And lastly the publicly percieved risk from raiders.

Of the three, public perception (including the merchant trade) will provide most of the pressure on commanders to protect merchant traffic. Given that raider successes are a certainty, it takes a brave or more likely foolish commander to ignore that public pressure.

By public perception maybe you mean where interstellar travel impacts the population as a whole, yes I agree. But in the Imperium, that number is a fraction of a percentage of all citizens, by the book, so pressure would be from those who run corporations.

Even expected demand tends to be more speculative than not in Traveller. By the book, that is. Aramis has explained that this is reasonable, as well.

Do we have info on how wartime scheduling works in Traveller?

Risk we know a little bit about, by the book.

So what we know is a little about risk, and a little about shipping.

Raider successes will happen, but raiders can also be repulsed, again by the book, since it wouldn't be a very fun game otherwise. Oberlindes freighters tend to be armed, presumably to fight off raiders. Also presumably these freighters could operate independently or in convoy -- I note that a convoy of armed 1,000t vessels would not draw out a single raider, which seems to be what the book has charts for.

Do we have info on "pack hunting" by raiders? For example, by Vargr corsairs?