How does a Colt 'Navy' work?
- Thread starter Scarecrow
- Start date
This guy is a nutbar. I always measure charges. There are a number of measuring powderflasks on the market, and these were in use it the same tme the cap and ball was introduced.
It should be noted that the Remington New Model Army allowed cylinders to be swapped out, so that you could have the equivalent of a speed loader.
Also, Colt did manufacture 'cartridges' for their cap and balls, made from a conical bullet with an attached lead foil envelop containing the powder charge. These were introduced at about the same time as metallic cartridges were becoming popular. Colt had ignored Rollin White's bored through cylinder patent, and White sold it to S&W instead. Colt had to wait for the patent to expire in 1871 before making a true cartridge revolver.
One thing about converting b.p. firearms to other forms. Can the firing chamber handle the other type of explosive without blowing up? When I was growing up, shotgun shells carried a warning aginst being used in guns with "twist or demascas steel barrels" (not sure I spelled it right). Older technology generally emplies that the equipment is manifactured with "older capabilities" as well.
Depends on then alloy and the heat treat. Also, these guns were converted to use black powder cartridges, which have much lower pressure - pretty much comparable to the original chamber pressures the guns were designed for.
Older technology doesn't necessarily imply "older capabilities". Most modern BP weapons, by virtue of their modern steels and heat treat, are much stronger than their original forebears. Modern Winchester lever guns are much stronger than the original models.
Older technology doesn't necessarily imply "older capabilities". Most modern BP weapons, by virtue of their modern steels and heat treat, are much stronger than their original forebears. Modern Winchester lever guns are much stronger than the original models.
Just as a point of historical interest, Wild Bill Hickock was the most famous exponent of the 1851 Navy. AFAIK all his killings were done with this gun, which he religiously reloaded every morning. When he moved to Deadwood he was carrying a couple of Colt cartridge conversions instead of his habitual Colt Navies. Didn't help when he was shot in the back of the head a few months later.
BTW, my objection to the Le Mat was not the weight to carry. It is heavy in the hand and slow to point. That means in a gunfight I would be at a disadvantage.
BTW, my objection to the Le Mat was not the weight to carry. It is heavy in the hand and slow to point. That means in a gunfight I would be at a disadvantage.
Wyatt Earp agreed with you. Which is why he got a shotgun from the Wells Fargo office before going to the OK Corral.
I too would like to start with a 10 guage coach gun. But after two shots you need to transition to a secondary weapon (like Doc Holliday at the OK Corral).
But a pistol (even in the Old West) is a poor substitute for a longarm. As the James-Younger gang found out at Northfield and the Dalton boys at Coffeeville, where the citizens cut them to pieces with hunting rifles.
I too would like to start with a 10 guage coach gun. But after two shots you need to transition to a secondary weapon (like Doc Holliday at the OK Corral).
But a pistol (even in the Old West) is a poor substitute for a longarm. As the James-Younger gang found out at Northfield and the Dalton boys at Coffeeville, where the citizens cut them to pieces with hunting rifles.
Very true. As I have speculated in these forums in the past, "How would more modern materals enhance older technology?" In the case of BP weapons could you double charge a weapon and in effect create a magnumn version in the case of a special need?
While Demascus steel may be great for cutting weapons, it stinks for firearms. By the same token, can older types of steam engines be made from/with more modern materials so that they become almost wearout proof making it worth while to supply a colony with them and at the same time have to stock only a minimal amount of replacement parts?
True Damascus (wootz) would probably make a pretty good gun. Pattern-welded steel, sometimes called "Damascus", varies wildly in quality and has produced beautiful but weak shotgun barrels.
Black powder is slow burning, so doubling the powder won't neccesarily help much and 19th century steel could contain it. A 44 1860 cap & ball colt held 28 gr of black powder. A Colt Walker held about 60 grains. I reckon modern steel could reduce the weight, but it would kick like a mule.
A perpetual steam engine ... yeah. Teflon or silicon steam seals, gem-quality silcon-oxide or diamond bearings.
Black powder is slow burning, so doubling the powder won't neccesarily help much and 19th century steel could contain it. A 44 1860 cap & ball colt held 28 gr of black powder. A Colt Walker held about 60 grains. I reckon modern steel could reduce the weight, but it would kick like a mule.
A perpetual steam engine ... yeah. Teflon or silicon steam seals, gem-quality silcon-oxide or diamond bearings.
epicenter00
SOC-13
Someone once estimated that a cranquin (sp) style crossbow would benefit far more from construction from modern materials than black powder firearms. In fact, if you're simply talking about a single shot, I recall someone actually doing the math on it and figuring out that a modern-made arbalest would be a pretty terrifying weapon.
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A few childish asides:
I always get an adolescent giggle from the true name of Damascus Steel:
Saracen: "Wootz I gots me a uber sword!" (or w00tz as the case would be)
Crusader: omg hax
This goes hand in hand with even more childish geekdom regarding the first year that cannons were used warships:
"1337, I got a cannon on my ship."
---
A few childish asides:
I always get an adolescent giggle from the true name of Damascus Steel:
Saracen: "Wootz I gots me a uber sword!" (or w00tz as the case would be)
Crusader: omg hax
This goes hand in hand with even more childish geekdom regarding the first year that cannons were used warships:
"1337, I got a cannon on my ship."
Crucible steel can't get no respect. Europeans called it "Damascus" and later confused it with pattern welding. The Indians called it wootz, which, as you say, seems silly but is fun to say. The central asians called it pulad, which always sounded faintly dirty to me.
And will someone tell me why leet spelling, optimized for cell-phone text messaging, became a hallmark of geekdom?
And will someone tell me why leet spelling, optimized for cell-phone text messaging, became a hallmark of geekdom?
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
pulad, huh. You're right, that does sound faintly adolescently naughty. But, what is leet spelling? (Of course, I don't get epicenter's jokes at all.....
)
Relatively mild steels are used in moder black powder reproduction guns because the pressures don't require ordnance grade steels. T/C is one of the few BP makers using 4140 - a steel usually associated with smokeless firearms and and artillery. Most makers use L6 and similar steels which are cheaper, easier to machine and more than suitable for the purpose.
There have been several published test of BP rifles where the gun was loaded with powder from breech to muzzle and fired without harm to the weapon. I don't recommend the practice however.
As for modern material and crossbows, there are plenty of makers like Barnett, Horton and TenPoint who are doing just that. However, once firearms are introduced, there's really not much used for bow arms except in sport. A rifled musket with a conical bullet is a 500 yard weapon. Even the most extreme crossbows are outclassed.
There have been several published test of BP rifles where the gun was loaded with powder from breech to muzzle and fired without harm to the weapon. I don't recommend the practice however.
As for modern material and crossbows, there are plenty of makers like Barnett, Horton and TenPoint who are doing just that. However, once firearms are introduced, there's really not much used for bow arms except in sport. A rifled musket with a conical bullet is a 500 yard weapon. Even the most extreme crossbows are outclassed.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Unless you want to look really cool while being exceptionally silent!
No muzzle blast, no need to silence the weapon, and no smoke to give away your position. And, you can use it on a low TL world without violating the Prime Directive! (Oh, wait,
epicenter00
SOC-13
Total aside:
IIRC, "Leet" spelling actually goes way back past most modern (and semi-modern) forms of text messaging. It's actually a hallmark I remember from the old dial-up BBS days (or daze as some people may insist). They used to have filters that prevented you using certain words (much like profanity filters today). So instead of being "elite" you were "leet" which later got filtered too so you became "1337". "Hacker" went to "hax0r" and what they did to "hax." Then that got mixed in with Quake/DoomSpeak from deathmatching where communicating in text as quickly as possible was emphasized. And that whole thing got spread to the wider crowd by games like EverQuest and now you have housewives using terms like "uber."
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
It's also the hallmark of being someone I want to hit repeatedly with all 20 volumes of the OED.
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
OMG! Hax! I hate that crap. I spent a year researching modern slang for a job, and I must tell you, it stinks.
People that buy into that, rather than actually communicating are practically volunteering to be barcoded. It makes me wonder if kids of the future are going to be like something out of THX-1138. The real irony is, few are actually "leet" and most need to STFU. Confronting them with a string of like-minded affectations usually embarasses them into silence.
I may have to choke the next person that puts "Paradigm Shift" into regular conversations... there are many modern slang terms that I truly, deeply, despise.
kthxbye.
People that buy into that, rather than actually communicating are practically volunteering to be barcoded. It makes me wonder if kids of the future are going to be like something out of THX-1138. The real irony is, few are actually "leet" and most need to STFU. Confronting them with a string of like-minded affectations usually embarasses them into silence.
I may have to choke the next person that puts "Paradigm Shift" into regular conversations... there are many modern slang terms that I truly, deeply, despise.
kthxbye.
The problem with high tech crossbows is that the basic technology has certain limits. There is only so much tension any material can have.
If you have a material that is so elastic as to be able to launch a bolt supersonic, then you have the same noise problems that a rifle has. On the point of sound produced, crossbows aren't silent, they are a lot quieter then a supersonic firearm, but some subsonic weapons may be quieter then many crossbows.
I couldn't find a reference for how loud a crossbow is. From experience with heavy poundage bows the noise is quite considerable. I'd estimate 60-70 decibel (loud conversation), slightly less with a good damping rig. If you want to up the velocity of the projectile that noise is likely to get a lot louder, easily getting to the 90db of silenced rifle fire. (Silencer info garnered from this finnish site)
Enough negatives, what advantages does a TL15 crossbow have.
Large projectile. TL15 explosives, or other tech such a rod penetrator rounds could make it reasonably effective. Somewhat similar to a grenade launcher.
Wide firing array. The arms of the crossbow make good locations for guidance sensors.
Otherwise pretty similar to a rifle.
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TL 15 Grav Crossbow
The grav crossbow propels its bolts using two small gravitic devices held perpendicular to the barrel. These devices couple with the bolt and allow it to be accelerated to moderate velocities.
The advantage over a more conventional rifle is mostly one of stealth. The gravitic signature on firing is equivalent to a grav belt failing to start up correctly, and considering the rarity of the weapon may not even be looked for. The heavy and large subsonic projectiles tend not to set off auditory sensors, the weapon itself is near silent. There is no recoil to speak of, though the breif gravitic pulse felt on firing can be unnerving at first.
The pods at the ends of the arms also contain the guidance mechanism for the bolts, the guided ones at least. This takes advantage of additional triangulation of the bolt in flight, allowing quite exeptional accuracy at range.
The arms can be folded against the shaft in some models. This is slightly less reliable, but far easier to carry. Technically there is no need for a barrel, though there is a need to hold the gravitic propellers well forward of the starting position of the projectile. This allows the unusual fully collapsible model, with a telescoping shaft and folding arms.
The fead tends to be a basic hopper fed from above the weapon holding 5 to 10 rounds. Some designs have a magazine below or need to be reloaded for each round.
The basic ammunition for the weapon is a solid bolt with basic inflight guidance. Often these can be recovered after use, with rechargable batteries this can be a worthwhile logistic option for longterm lone wolf operations. The battery pack is normally built into the stock and shaft of the weapon, though some can also be powered from a backpack power unit.
Other ammunition is available in both dumb and smart munitions.
How does that sound?
If you have a material that is so elastic as to be able to launch a bolt supersonic, then you have the same noise problems that a rifle has. On the point of sound produced, crossbows aren't silent, they are a lot quieter then a supersonic firearm, but some subsonic weapons may be quieter then many crossbows.
I couldn't find a reference for how loud a crossbow is. From experience with heavy poundage bows the noise is quite considerable. I'd estimate 60-70 decibel (loud conversation), slightly less with a good damping rig. If you want to up the velocity of the projectile that noise is likely to get a lot louder, easily getting to the 90db of silenced rifle fire. (Silencer info garnered from this finnish site)
Enough negatives, what advantages does a TL15 crossbow have.
Large projectile. TL15 explosives, or other tech such a rod penetrator rounds could make it reasonably effective. Somewhat similar to a grenade launcher.
Wide firing array. The arms of the crossbow make good locations for guidance sensors.
Otherwise pretty similar to a rifle.
-----
TL 15 Grav Crossbow
The grav crossbow propels its bolts using two small gravitic devices held perpendicular to the barrel. These devices couple with the bolt and allow it to be accelerated to moderate velocities.
The advantage over a more conventional rifle is mostly one of stealth. The gravitic signature on firing is equivalent to a grav belt failing to start up correctly, and considering the rarity of the weapon may not even be looked for. The heavy and large subsonic projectiles tend not to set off auditory sensors, the weapon itself is near silent. There is no recoil to speak of, though the breif gravitic pulse felt on firing can be unnerving at first.
The pods at the ends of the arms also contain the guidance mechanism for the bolts, the guided ones at least. This takes advantage of additional triangulation of the bolt in flight, allowing quite exeptional accuracy at range.
The arms can be folded against the shaft in some models. This is slightly less reliable, but far easier to carry. Technically there is no need for a barrel, though there is a need to hold the gravitic propellers well forward of the starting position of the projectile. This allows the unusual fully collapsible model, with a telescoping shaft and folding arms.
The fead tends to be a basic hopper fed from above the weapon holding 5 to 10 rounds. Some designs have a magazine below or need to be reloaded for each round.
The basic ammunition for the weapon is a solid bolt with basic inflight guidance. Often these can be recovered after use, with rechargable batteries this can be a worthwhile logistic option for longterm lone wolf operations. The battery pack is normally built into the stock and shaft of the weapon, though some can also be powered from a backpack power unit.
Other ammunition is available in both dumb and smart munitions.
How does that sound?
