How ubiquitous are grav vehicles

[rancke]

I've always assumed that in ultra-tech societies, air/rafts supplanted cars, grav vans supplanted trucks, and so forth. But the other day a discussion I was in made me realize that there's one big difference between high-tech cars and ultra-tech air/rafts: Air/rafts are comparatively expensive.

According to The Traveller Book, a generic ground car costs Cr4000 whereas a generic air/raft costs Cr600,000 -- 150 times more than the car. It's true that higher tech levels have higher per capita incomes, but the difference between TL7 and TL15 is only about a factor 3 (depending a little on trade classifications).

Given that, I think it's logical to posit that an ultra-tech society is not, in fact, going to have nearly the same number of "family air/rafts" as a high-tech society has family cars. But how much fewer? Is there some way to estimate, perhaps based on per capita income, how many grav vehicles a society would have?

And a related question: What does the segment of society that in TL7 societies do have a familiy car (or more than one) but cannot afford an air/raft do instead? Do the utilize a much more efficient public transportation system? Air/raft pool? Build roads and buy ground cars? Not build roads and buy ATVs?


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Yes, in the Traveller grav vehicles are as ubiquitous as Rolls' are in Peoria IL.
If you consider that a "generic" ground car costs ~$16,000, an air/raft would be ~$2,400,000 equivalent...

 

[far-trader]

Air/Raft ≠ GravCar

Air/Rafts are large, military spec, hardened vehicles designed for operation in a wide range of conditions on a wide range of worlds. Think more Humvee than Jeep. They would not be ubiquitous in civilian usage.

GravCars may be ubiquitous on high tech rich worlds, or they may not be. Public transport, or holovid conferencing, or something else may make personal transportation unnecessary or restricted. IF GravCars are ubiquitous they will be small (1ton max) and relatively inexpensive (some KCrs). They will not be orbital capable or built to operate in any environment but that of the world they were built on.

 

[HG_B]

Air/Raft ≠ GravCar

Air/Rafts are large, military spec, hardened vehicles designed for operation in a wide range of conditions on a wide range of worlds.

Really? Doesn't reflect that in the design specs. Pls list the CT, MT or other TU ref backing up this position.

 

[far-trader]

Simple common sense HG_B.

 

[HG_B]

Simple common sense HG_B.

In other words, you ZERO rules material to back up your made up assertions. Cool.

 

[rancke]

Air/Raft ≠ GravCar

That may be true enough, since there is no such thing as a grav car mentioned in the equipment list, but it is the standard four-person passenger conveyance of the grav vehicles mentioned.

Air/Rafts are large, military spec, hardened vehicles designed for operation in a wide range of conditions on a wide range of worlds. Think more Humvee than Jeep. They would not be ubiquitous in civilian usage.

No, that's the GCarrier, which costs Cr1,000,000.

GravCars may be ubiquitous on high tech rich worlds, or they may not be. Public transport, or holovid conferencing, or something else may make personal transportation unnecessary or restricted. IF GravCars are ubiquitous they will be small (1ton max) and relatively inexpensive (some KCrs).

A grav belt costs Cr100,000. A 1 T vehicle capable of carrying more than a grav belt can is hardly going to costs less than that.


Hans

 

[rancke]

In other words, you ZERO rules material to back up your made up assertions. Cool.

Well, he's right about the standard air/raft being capable of reaching orbit, which may be a tad overgeared for a family vehicle.

Maybe it would be fruitful to explore just what the cost of an air/raft covers. I'm going to start another thread in the equipment forum.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Well, he's right about the standard air/raft being capable of reaching orbit, which may be a tad overgeared for a family vehicle.

Maybe it would be fruitful to explore just what the cost of an air/raft covers. I'm going to start another thread in the equipment forum.


Hans

Per the design rules in CT & MT, this is an ability of grav vehicles. Also, there is NOTHING in the rules about air/rafts being hardened. Just look to the design rules for the answers.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

People also seem to forget one thing about grav vehicles in general. What happens if the Grav engine develops a fatal flaw resulting in a TDX explosion?

You think state inspections are tuff now?

Grav Vehicles are for military and scouts only, in my universe just on the fact they could slice people in half if they are damaged or missed used...

 

[far-trader]

Hans, it's really quite simple imo. At Cr600,000 it is NOT a common civilian item. How could it be? The description alone tells you that as well:

1. It is huge. 4tons. Ignore some of the illustrations that make it look the size of a small car. It is not. Those are not of an Air/Raft. It is just under (if you want it to fit in the space provided) 3m wide by 6m long, and nominally (if enclosed for proper 4ton size) 3m high. Compare that to a car at just under 2m wide by 4m long and 1.5m high.
2. It is hellaciously expensive. Cr600,000. And you think this is an everyday Soccer Mom vehicle? Not even at a tenth that* is it going to be more than a special forces vehicle, or rarely a special civilian vehicle for the very rich. Something top earning entertainers buy to show off.
3. It can clearly operate in any environment. The thing can fly in space, and is routinely used by the IISS to explore strange new worlds and to boldly go... oops, wrong meme. That implies a lot of gear and ruggedness that would be unnecessary for an urban vehicle restricted to operating on one world.
4. The G-Carrier is to the Air/Raft as an APC is to the Humvee. You're still looking for the GravCar equivalent of the Jeep.

* which btw is what I think it is worth, and the grav-belt is worth Cr10,000 at it's usual TL, and much less at higher TLs

 

[far-trader]

In other words, you ZERO rules material to back up your made up assertions. Cool.

No, in other words I take the rules as they are to see what they mean. See my reply to Hans above.

Let's hear your explanation.

 

[rancke]

Hans, it's really quite simple imo. At Cr600,000 it is NOT a common civilian item. How could it be?

It can't. But on the other hand, it is so described in many places while there is no mention whatsoever of a common civilian version. In MT:Imperial Encyclopedia it costs Cr275,000 and is described thus "Common on high-tech worlds, it is efficient and inexpensive." Its cousin, the enclosed Air/Raft costs Cr389,000 and is described as "slightly" more expensive -- a mere Cr114,000 more.

I think it's obvious that there is a discrepancy between how much it actually costs and how 30 years worth of Traveller writers have perceived it.

It is hellaciously expensive. Cr600,000. And you think this is an everyday Soccer Mom vehicle?

No, Dan. I explicitly do not think it is an everyday Soccer Mom vehicle. The question I'm raising is if ANY grav vehicle could possibly be an everyday Soccer Mom vehicle.

* which btw is what I think it is worth, and the grav-belt is worth Cr10,000 at it's usual TL, and much less at higher TLs

But the rules say that the grav-belt costs Cr100,000. Not 10,000. And if a one-person grav-belt costs Cr100,000, what's a four-person runaround going to cost?


Hans

 

[Jame]

I've begun to assume that they get quite cheap at higher TLs, for MTU. So they'd be quite common.

Oh, and my default air/raft is automatically enclosed, simply to combat the need for a vacsuit when going to orbit. So they're ubiquitous, and indeed almost ubiquitously enclosed.

 

[HG_B]

I've begun to assume that they get quite cheap at higher TLs, for MTU. So they'd be quite common.

Oh, and my default air/raft is automatically enclosed, simply to combat the need for a vacsuit when going to orbit. So they're ubiquitous, and indeed almost ubiquitously enclosed.

Closed vehicles in atmosphere go faster and use less energy too.

 

[far-trader]

(Take 2... I haven't had the site mangle and eat a post in ages... )

It can't. But on the other hand, it is so described in many places while there is no mention whatsoever of a common civilian version.

If we're talking MT, I seem to recall DGP 101 Vehicles having a couple civilian grav vehicles at 10s of Kcr. My copy is MIA though so I can't check. There was also a Challenge (iirc) article on doing grav vehicles on the cheap with examples. Again (iirc) all at 10s of Kcr. The key being to drop unnecessary frills like long range electronics, especially radar; reduce your powerplant and weight to a minimum, especially limiting range; and stick to smaller sizes and cheaper materials.

I think it's obvious that there is a discrepancy between how much it actually costs and how 30 years worth of Traveller writers have perceived it.

Couldn't agree more.

...the rules say that the grav-belt costs Cr100,000. Not 10,000.

Again, that is a military grade item (at either price) with all the bells and whistles, and made to withstand combat or other extreme environments. Not the SportBelt(tm)* that civilian gravsport enthusiasts use

* available at your favorite retailer for just Cr999(msrp)

...of course the real reason the GravBelt is priced at Cr100,000 is because it is a McGuffin. Something for the ref to dangle to lure the PCs into fun (i.e. danger and adventure) or to separate them from their ill-gotten gains

 

[Dragoner]

Grav belts are only cr 10,000 by Bk4 pg 43.

I would say after TL11 or so (12-15 Imp Standard) grav vehicles completely replace ground cars, high TL cities do not even have roads.

 

[rancke]

Grav belts are only cr 10,000 by Bk4 pg 43.

That correction reduces the cost of a grav belt from the original cost of Cr1,000,000 in the 1st edition to Cr100,000.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

I just noticed that, it still would have the 5% to 15% price reduction per TL, OTU, however.

As per OTU Grav Vehicles:

"Grav Vehicles: Grav vehicles are the main transportation of a high technology
society. Beyond tech level 10, other vehicle types are rarely seen except in a few specialized situations."

Bk 3(1981), pg22.

 

[far-trader]

..."Grav Vehicles: Grav vehicles are the main transportation of a high technology
society. Beyond tech level 10, other vehicle types are rarely seen except in a few specialized situations."

Bk 3(1981), pg22.

Which makes sense to me, with the caveat that the Air/Raft, GravCarrier, and Speeder are military/high end consumer vehicles. So the military and the rich will have those and only rarely use other vehicle types except in specialized situations.

What the rules originally and largely ignored are the civilian/low end consumer grav vehicles. Which would cost considerably less. Else they'd never be ubiquitous. Well, at least not unless you accept an average TL8 salary of nearly MCr1 per year