Hunter or Avery; what's the word on the Traveller MMORPG?

[Blue Ghost]

A traveller MMORPG is not something I'd play.

I did a lot of Joint Ops by Novalogic, and where that's ostensibly a massive DM with strategic and tactical overtones, I found myself needing to find something with more substance.

Truth is I still miss it, but am too busy to dedicate time to it.

However, when I did Everquest I was bored out of my skull. Largely because I simply don't like those kinds of games in the first place. The magic of an RPG is that you interact with people you know in person, and are able to share an immaginative experience with them. Computer RPGs of all flavors don't do that very well, if at all.

Anyway. I better get going to work. I may make a a few levels for CSS with a Traveller theme, but I think I'lm done with RPGs as a whole.

 

[tim_manley]

The beauty of traveler is that you have space travel/adventure and planetary travel/adventure.

Technically this is very difficult to do in MMORPGs. The workload in creating rich environments is pretty hefty. The functional work in creating "space" and "planetside" is also resource prohibitive.

I would love to see a core traveler MMORPG but don't think there is the impetus in both tech and cost to make it happen.... yet.

 

[jfetters]

The beauty of traveler is that you have space travel/adventure and planetary travel/adventure.

Well, meaning that you have a space adventure on a specific space-based platform (starship in jump, orbital station, what have you).

The real-world-based physics of the Traveller universe make it limited for a space combat, or even space travel perspective. Not saying it's impossible, mind you. Games such as Elite were good at that, but in a MMPORPG setting, I don't see it happening. I mean, you have your free-trader loaded up to travel to Regina from Jenghe, but then have to travel for almost a day to the jump point. Then you're in jump for a week. Then you come out. Is everyone notified? blah blah, you get the idea.

Maybe it's me, but I don't see how time compression could work when it is supposed to be a realtime system. Do any of the current online RPGs use it?

So, you end up with something like the original Star Wars online system (sans the space combat), but with Traveller tech and backgrounds.

 

[ganymede]

Traveller MMORPG?

I think at this stage in the game, someone making a sci fi MMORPG is going to approach Marc about using the OTU for their game, maybe someone with Zombie &/or Bethesda Softworks looking to adapt their so-new-its-not-done-yet engine to a Massive online situation. The only problem? Probably gonna require 64-bit processing as a minimum, but can you say full-on space battles from either an EVE-style perspective, or... wait for it... wait for it... running around 1st- or 3rd-person style in a ship as you try to avoid getting blown to bits! And how about the first game where as a merc striker unit, you jump from one world to the next, get into space combat, then as a marine-type, jump out and do an atmospheric insertion (re-entry) and dodge and spiral with your grav belt, dodging flak and enemy fighters, to hit the ground to clash with defending troops! Whew!

Not that it exists, but I do have a fertile imagination, eh?

BTW, those guys are doing a 1st-person/squad level shooter with the ability to allow up to 227 options at each decision point... but you didn't hear that from me....

 

[ManOguaR]

It's not impossible

Figure a 3rd person MMORPG based on Traveller, get all game rules and just pull out those that could be a problem. If these rules or particularities doesn't affect the Global Campaing Background, just we don't use them. On the other side if some of the Traveller's universe background is affected, try to build some exciting gameplay around it.

It's a lot of design work, but...

I must translate my design work and put it on the internet, and if you take a glance, maybe you can figure out what's my idea.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Been a long time since I logged in here.

About 7 years ago, I was hired at Playnet to help design Traveller Online. I had put Marc in touch with Playnet before then (late 1999 or early 2000). Playnet had the license for a while. But World War II Online suffered a devastating launch and bankruptcy followed not too long after (which we fought through and successfully escaped from - that's a different story though), and that effectively killed Traveller Online as a project at Playnet.

At the time we had to stop active development, which was mostly just me conferring somewhat with the executive producer and MM occasionally, we had a design doc of ~80 pages, with some neat ideas that would have been new at the time. But what was looming in my mind was that once we were able to commit real resources to moving forward on it, were several major changes to 'canon' that would have to take place to be viable as a 'persistent universe' MMO. One or two have already been hinted at here.

Of course, that was 2000 and a lot of the design doc is of little value now, IMO (though I'm not free to share it). And player expectations have changed drastically. Doing Traveller 'right' as a full-scale MMO would take about $40 million and 3-4 years, ballpark. And, unfortunately, the value of the brand is currently challenged do to very little name recognition, especially in the main demographic of people who are willing to pay $60 up front and $180/year ($15/month) for an MMORPG. That's a huge risk that few are willing to take.

I think now that an "Oblivion" style approach would have greater opportunity, especially given the ability that players have to modify content for that system. I would also look at Neverwinter Nights-style, which allows of multiple players and single-player 'parties', or 'crews', especially if you could strip the D20 out of it (I'm no fan of levels).

It would still require a significant amount of artistic re$ource$ to be AAA quality, to say nothing of level/story design and programming. And it would have to stand on it's own merits, outside of being associated with "Traveller" as a great gaming experience.

And unlike an MMO, where you have to do the WHOLE thing, and test it all, you could focus on some of the classic adventures, like the whole series leading up to the discovery of Grandfather. And you could modularize it, release new expansions over time.

I think that's an approach that is much more feasible, certainly much less expensive, and has a greater likelihood to build the value of the Traveller brand. (And you don't have to worry about the necessity in MMOs for instanteous, universe-wide communications, for one thing).

My last thread necromancy, I swear, but is there any word on a NEW Trav MMORPG?

 

[DonM]

I'm neither Hunter nor Avery, but I can answer...

The word right now is no.

Not only do you have the investment problems and ramp up required for any MMO, but some remember the last time Traveller the RPG was put second, behind 'Hollywood' interests. Marc certainly does.

Inquiries which offer $$$ for IP get an almost reflexive no.

I joked that about the only real proposal that might get some play was my 'Traveller101' April Fools joke (my wife, son and I have played Wizard101 for years). Interestingly, some of my thoughts in that area actually made it into Pirate101... so perhaps a Traveller101 isn't as big of a joke now as I once thought.

 

[Blue Ghost]

How interesting. Considering all of the blatant Traveller ripoffs I see in all kinds of games (DOOM, System Shock 2, Battlefield 2142, Half Life), it makes one wonder how come there just hasn't been the simplest of games since MegaTrav2.

 

[DonM]

Marc has had a number of offers of $$$ for IP. He's said no.

 

[Blue Ghost]

That's unfortunate. I won't ask why. Truth be told I found the two Trav computer games a little wonky. Playable, but somewhat difficult to wrap my skull around. In fact I think I bought the cheat booklet to finish the first one...I never did finish the second one.

 

[Blue Ghost]

One more note here; truth be told I really don't like MMORPGs. I really don't. When I did Everquest for a few months, it was clear to me that it wasn't a game, but a cyber-theme park that took all kinds of liberties with all kinds of fantasy genres. On top of that allegedly players needed to be 18 or older, and with a credit card, but you could clearly see pre-teen boys had convinced mommy and daddy to open an account or two for them. And they would flood the chat, steal your loot, swear and conjure all kinds of offensive sexual imagery ... it was really just NO fun at all.

Part of games, and specifically RPGs, is the story telling aspect. There were mini quests in Everquest, but they were pretty dumb and dull. And when someone else talked about a Traveller MMORPG, I winced, but was open to the prospect.

An old online gaming acquaintance suggested we go in on Star Wars Galaxies, but I just couldn't get myself to do it. Likewise, it's just as well an online version of Traveller doesn't happen. Personally, for me, it would just crush my spirits to see the same pre-teens screwing up the experience with hacks and immature behavior. It really would color Traveller in a most heinous way.

In short, I'm glad mister Miller has said no.

In the meantime, I may fire up HAMMER and see about modding CSS with a Traveller flavor.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Here's a link to the "Star Wars" map for Counter Strike Source that I was discussing some years before earlier in this thread;

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=296000772

 

[Carlobrand]

... some remember the last time Traveller the RPG was put second, behind 'Hollywood' interests. Marc certainly does. ...

Some have never heard that story. Wha' happened?

I've only ever played one MMORPG that I thought was good for capturing the adventuring experience, and that was DDO, and - well, it was what you'd expect for a D&D-themed RPG: lots of hacking and spelling and killin' monsters and getting around traps, quite fun actually, but it would be difficult to translate Traveller into that kind of dungeoneering atmosphere. The things I love about Trav make it too different from D&D for that kind of treatment to work. Also, the MMORPGs are - almost universally - extremely mercenary. Last thing the game needs is players disenchanted because of a bad on-line experience or spending all their free money on special-sale PGMPs and battledress instead of on the game materials.

I could see something like this working as a very carefully controlled and supervised fan-based project, maybe deliver specific adventures in a simple and inexpensive graphic format that people could sign in and play with pre-gens as a means of exciting interest in the game. I can't see it working as a commercial enterprise.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Also, the MMORPGs are - almost universally - extremely mercenary. Last thing the game needs is players disenchanted because of a bad on-line experience or spending all their free money on special-sale PGMPs and battledress instead of on the game materials.

I could see something like this working as a very carefully controlled and supervised fan-based project, maybe deliver specific adventures in a simple and inexpensive graphic format that people could sign in and play with pre-gens as a means of exciting interest in the game. I can't see it working as a commercial enterprise.

Some snippage to the quote.

I signed on for Everquest about three or four months after it hit the shelves, and only at the prodding of a lot of other people I knew on another online gaming forum.

The one aspect was the mercenary culture that developed. People were selling in-game items on ebay for real money. There were recruits who would get full armor and a shiny new sword if they would fork over their in game earnings to the clan. It was cult like for some. There was absolutely no role playing whatsoever. No avoidance of traps. No real spirit of adventure.

After a few months I quit. The graphics, for the time, were passable, the music was standard MIDI stuff. The maps were fine. But it's all the unwanted company that came with the package that made it a really bad experience. Imagine Disneyland without their Polite Police.

 

[mike wightman]

I've been playing WoW for eight nearly nine years now. It has been a very positive experience. if I want role playing I can log on to one of the better role playing realms where everyone stays in character, but the usual way is just to log on and do stuff.

I've been in huge guilds and I've been guileless, I have avoided groups and other times had great fun in an instance group.

I think the MMORPG experience depends a great deal on which one you try out.

 

[SpaceBadger]

Disclaimer: All I know of MMOs is my sons' experience with Star Wars Online, the current one set in Old Republic times. It seems they have some interesting adventures and missions assigned, including meeting people and talking with them (with limited conversational options), although also a lot of "fight this, fight that, solve a puzzle, kill the boss." There is also a large emphasis on levelling up to get better abilities/feats and better equipment.

Although this would not be the right "feel" for Traveller, it seems that if the adventures and missions could be kept, and the meeting and talking with Patrons and other folks, then if the fighting/killing/levelling could be taken out, and some more detailed shipboard activity added (including ship combat), then a reasonable facsimile of Traveller might be made.

However, as DonM stated rather authoritatively upthread that Marc is not interested, that seems unlikely to actually happen.

 

[Blue Ghost]

"Levelling up" was the other turn off. That was the whole "game" or point of staying logged on.

The servers were crowded at the time I was subscribing, and the whole experience wound up being 50 plus players camped out at one site as they wait for a monster to spawn, and then one or two groups of four or five would tackle the thing, and the next group was up. It was really pathetic. The one guy I used to game with a lot left for vacation with his wife and kids, and after he took off I called it quits and cancelled my subscription.

 

[Marchand]

I used to play a bit of EVE, which is my sole experience of MMORPGs.

Seems to me that there is a fundamental problem with the idea of a Trav MMORPG, which is either it will have to stay in one system only, or it will have to ditch the no-FTL comms feature. Even if you don't allow in-game comms between systems, there is no way to stop players communicating outside the game.

The only way I could see to do it would be to have each ship as a separate server with the players playing the crew, but it would hardly be MM any more.

 

[aramis]

I used to play a bit of EVE, which is my sole experience of MMORPGs.

Seems to me that there is a fundamental problem with the idea of a Trav MMORPG, which is either it will have to stay in one system only, or it will have to ditch the no-FTL comms feature. Even if you don't allow in-game comms between systems, there is no way to stop players communicating outside the game.

The only way I could see to do it would be to have each ship as a separate server with the players playing the crew, but it would hardly be MM any more.

Actually, if the ships were big... say, AHL big...

Take 8 instances... 4 planets on a patrol route. 4 ships on that route. Each "day" (say, 12 hours realtime) has new shipboard missions and new state upgrades for the dirtside... The ships spend a "week" in system, then anyone still aboard has a "week" of on-ship missions, then another week in the next system... Shipboard missions could be puzzlers, while dirtside a mix of combat (in one system), social, and puzzler.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I'm with "the creator" Marc Miller on this one. I don't know what he's basing his decision on, but practicalities of moving the servers chronologically forward to mimic the TAS and events in whatever setting aside, I just think it would attract the wrong crowd.

I know that's the snobbiest thing anyone can say, but I really do speak from experience here. When a new (computer) game comes out every kid from 12 to 14 cajoles their parents or simply steals from them to buy a copy, log on, and just pollute the whole experience.

It doesn't matter what game it is, and I'm sure there's enough computer gamers here who know what I'm talking about.

If you think pirated modules reduced to PDF and uploaded to illegal servers is bad, then you have not experienced the 13 year old punk who runs amuck on a game server with the latest hacks, trying to get attention, spewing off at the mouth, and just ruining the experience.

And, what's worse, is when adults who know better, do the same thing. I'm guessing most Traveller players are a pretty sanguine and sane group, even the newcomers, but believe you me, if there's a Traveller MMORPG, then it'll be like teaching at your local middle school, but without parents and principle to bring things to order.

Now, a computer game that facilitated players across the nation and globe to get together for a gaming session....something that had in game graphics as playing pieces, while you, me, the other guys could upload a character (approved by the ref), and where the graphics essentially acted as miniatures and nothing more (the Ref would still determine events, rule on die rolls and what not)--that would be something I would buy, and use. GRIP in steroids.