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Ice Refuelling

Blue Ghost

SOC-14 5K
Knight
Okay, so there you are. You're operating your scout alone (not a smart thing to do), and you're in some boondock system that has a couple of gas giants where, if you were so inclined, could rocket through at high speed, scoop up a bunch of ammonia and what not, and jump back to civilization.

Ah, but you've got issues with skimming a gas giant, and there are no worlds with water, so... there's maybe a Uranus or Europa like world hanging around, and you've got just enough fuel left to land on one of these bodies, and start shoveling or sucking up with a hose, or hacking away with a chainsaw at said ice/snow to put enough hydrogen in your tanks so you can jump back home.

What do you do, how do you do it, and all that other stuff :)

Feel free to quote the previous gas giant refueling thread.
 
A dTon of hydrogen is a metric ton mass. The scout wants 40 metric tons of hydrogen, H2. Assume we're mining water ice: one ton per cubic meter, of which 89% (the oxygen) is unneeded. For each cubic meter they mine, they come away with 111 kilograms of hydrogen. You need about 360 cubic meters to fill the 40 dTon H2 tank.

How much energy you need to raise a ton of water ice to liquid temperature depends on the temperature of the ice. Assume -200C (temperature around Europa). One ton, a thousand kilograms, raised 200 degrees to melting point is 200 thousand kilocalories. A kilocalorie is 4.2 kilojoules, so 840 thousand kilojoules to turn a 1-ton block of water ice on Europa to liquid; then you suck it up. Your scout's 500 megawatt fusion plant puts out enough power to melt a ton of ice in a bit over a second and a half, so power isn't a problem - applying it to the desired location and reaping the reward without losing it to vacuum is your problem. That, and keeping the system small enough that you can say you have it without explaining why you're not allocating space specifically for it - it's a tiny part of the fuel system.

Technical problem is you're in vacuum, so your system needs to be able to deal with the ice in some manner as to prevent losing water to vacuum. Say, a large diameter semirigid hose (okay, flexible pipe if it makes people happy) ending in a head that's designed to press onto the ice and heat the surface covered by the head. Low power lasers or some other method can melt or vaporize the surface covered by the head - easier to vaporize in vacuum, water has a "triple point" at about 0C in vacuum, which means under these conditions the ice goes straight to vapor until enough pressure builds up under the head to support liquid water, which is just fine cause the vapor can be sucked up just as easily as it is produced.

Ice in space is unlikely to be just a block of water. You'll encounter other volatiles in ice form, most useful as sources of hydrogen, maybe they're mixed, I don't know. No reason to be picky. Run the vapor through the power plant, temps high enough to break down molecular bonds, turn the lot into a high temperature plasma, centrifuge the result, collect the lighter hydrogen and discharge the rest. Result isn't perfect, but it's good enough to call it an unrefined fuel.

For convenience and play balance sake, I'm going to say it takes a week to fill tanks that way: hoses with 500 kilowatt heaters operating constantly. A 500 Kw laser heating system is conveniently small and inexpensive by Striker design rules, you don't have to explain where the space or cash for it is coming from, and at that rate it's not an attractive method, not something to challenge canon, but it's doable if you can't or won't go to another fuel choice. Likely to be a lot faster in the polar zone of a terrestrial planet, where the temps aren't so radically low and you've got atmosphere - maybe one or two days. Antarctica sees lows down to -90 and lower but averages range from -10 to -55 depending on how close to the pole you are. Mars runs to a low of about -150C at the poles; ice temperatures there might be around -50C, though that's speculation. Ceres/asteroid belt runs to temps of about -30 to -120, and Europa -150 to -220. Likely to be a bit slower out in the Kuipers, where temps are in the -220C to -260 range; might take 8-10 days.

http://beforeitsnews.com/space/2012...mperatures-in-the-solar-system-2-2451130.html

You could of course go with a more powerful heating head, maybe chop time by a factor of 10.
 
That very interesting. It's been ages since I've taken chemistry or physics, and other than gravity and pull thereof on other planets, we really didn't delve into states on other worlds. I personally always was curious how ice of any kind existed in a vacuum. Apparently water on the moon is mixed and buried under the regolith, and ice crystals can be melted or squeezed out of that material (I've seen a personal demonstration of it). But I guess we're talking more or less snow and ice on the surface as we normally understand them, just made of different compounds at lower temperatures, and in a vacuum or near vacuum.

What would be the problem of say cutting away several blocks of the stuff and shoving it through the fueling port or some other similar opening? Presumably the fuel tanks are sealed off from the rest of the ship, save for the power plant, so this way you don't have to keep venting and re-pressurizeing the airlock or cargo area if you're using the air raft to haul in the stuff.
 
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A dTon of hydrogen is a metric ton mass. The scout wants 40 metric tons of hydrogen, H2. Assume we're mining water ice: one ton per cubic meter, of which 89% (the oxygen) is unneeded. For each cubic meter they mine, they come away with 111 kilograms of hydrogen. You need about 360 cubic meters to fill the 40 dTon H2 tank.

For just water to fill the 40dton tanks you need 560 cubic meters (40x14=560).

The density of ice is 0.9167 .

560 / 0.9167 = 610.9 cubic meters of ice required for the volume of water.

Only 11% (your figure) is hydrogen

610.9 cubic meters / .11 = 5553.6 cubic meters of ice required for the volume of hydrogen required (pure liquid hydrogen)

That's 138.8 cubic meters of ice per tonne of useful hydrogen fuel...

That's a lot in my estimation to expect a small crew to accomplish.
 
A dTon of hydrogen is a metric ton mass. The scout wants 40 metric tons of hydrogen, H2. Assume we're mining water ice: one ton per cubic meter, of which 89% (the oxygen) is unneeded. For each cubic meter they mine, they come away with 111 kilograms of hydrogen. You need about 360 cubic meters to fill the 40 dTon H2 tank. .

In Trav a dTon is a volume measure of LHyd displacement, 13.5 kiloliters. If using liquid H2O, you only need ~8.1 kiloliters in order to refine to 13.5 kiloliters (1 Dton) of Lhyd.
 
For just water to fill the 40dton tanks you need 560 cubic meters (40x14=560).

The density of ice is 0.9167 .

560 / 0.9167 = 610.9 cubic meters of ice required for the volume of water.

Only 11% (your figure) is hydrogen

610.9 cubic meters / .11 = 5553.6 cubic meters of ice required for the volume of hydrogen required (pure liquid hydrogen)

That's 138.8 cubic meters of ice per tonne of useful hydrogen fuel...

That's a lot in my estimation to expect a small crew to accomplish.

Your math is off. You have 610 cubic meters of ice. 11% is hydrogen, from your statement, but your dividing by 11% instead of multiplying. I'm not sure why.

You're working straight from volume. 560 cubic meters of liquid water is 560 metric tons. 11% of that mass is 61.6 metric tons of hydrogen, the rest being oxygen. 61.6 metric tons of hydrogen, when you break it free of the water and convert it to liquid hydrogen, occupies 61.6 displacement tons by definition; hydrogen is less dense. You've exceeded the volume of your tanks.

In Trav a dTon is a volume measure of LHyd displacement, 13.5 kiloliters. If using liquid H2O, you only need ~8.1 kiloliters in order to refine to 13.5 kiloliters (1 Dton) of Lhyd.

A dTon is a volume measure based on one metric ton of liquid hydrogen. CT Book 2: "As a rough guide, one ton equals 14 cubic meters (the volume of one ton of liquid hydrogen)." 8.1 kiloliters of liquid H2O is 8.1 metric tons. 8.1 metric tons will give me 0.9 metric ton of hydrogen, no? Each water molecule is two hydrogen atoms of mass 1 and one oxygen atom of mass 16, ergo 1/9 of the mass of water is hydrogen, no?
 
8.1 metric tons will give me 0.9 metric ton of hydrogen, no?

No. Remember your H.S. Chem classes. The H in H20 is MUCH closer together (higher density) than it is in L-Hyd.

8.1 Kliters of H20 will yield ~13.5 Kliters of L-hyd. For that matter Liquid ammonia will yield similar results to H20 in this regard.
 
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Your math is off. You have 610 cubic meters of ice. 11% is hydrogen, from your statement, but your dividing by 11% instead of multiplying. I'm not sure why.

You're working straight from volume. 560 cubic meters of liquid water is 560 metric tons. 11% of that mass is 61.6 metric tons of hydrogen, the rest being oxygen. 61.6 metric tons of hydrogen, when you break it free of the water and convert it to liquid hydrogen, occupies 61.6 displacement tons by definition; hydrogen is less dense. You've exceeded the volume of your tanks.



A dTon is a volume measure based on one metric ton of liquid hydrogen. CT Book 2: "As a rough guide, one ton equals 14 cubic meters (the volume of one ton of liquid hydrogen)." 8.1 kiloliters of liquid H2O is 8.1 metric tons. 8.1 metric tons will give me 0.9 metric ton of hydrogen, no? Each water molecule is two hydrogen atoms of mass 1 and one oxygen atom of mass 16, ergo 1/9 of the mass of water is hydrogen, no?

Probably did mess it up. I'm very sleep deprived due to illness and thinking is an ordeal. Sorry for any error. Down and dirty would be 560 x 2/3 = 373.33 cubic meters of ice? Still a lot.
 
I'm not following. How do you get a greater volume of liquid hydrogen from water after disassociation?
 
I'm not following. How do you get a greater volume of liquid hydrogen from water after disassociation?

A molecule of water is 1/9th hydrogen by mass, but a ton of water is 0.95 to 1.1 cubic meters; the molecule is very compact, and fairly neutral, so it doesn't repel other molecules.

A ton of hydrogen molecules, however, can only be fit into 13.5 cubic meters (and that's only when highly compressed), and at workable pressures, 14.1 cubic meters or so. The Hydrogen molecule repels other hydrogen molecules, so they don't pack tightly.
 
No. Remember your H.S. Chem classes. The H in H20 is MUCH closer together (higher density) than it is in L-Hyd.

8.1 Kliters of H20 will yield ~13.5 Kliters of L-hyd. For that matter Liquid ammonia will yield similar results to H20 in this regard.

I remember my HS chem, and you're not making any sense. 8.1 kiloliters of H2O is 8.1 tons, or 7.36 to 8.53 tons depending on temperature, using Aramis' numbers. 1/9 of that mass is hydrogen: 0.82 to 0.95 tons. Disassociate it, compress and cool it, and 0.82 to 0.95 metric tons of liquid hydrogen is not 1 displacement ton. I'm not a scientist, but my elementary school math is still good enough to see that.
 
I remember my HS chem, and you're not making any sense. 8.1 kiloliters of H2O is 8.1 tons, or 7.36 to 8.53 tons depending on temperature, using Aramis' numbers. 1/9 of that mass is hydrogen: 0.82 to 0.95 tons. Disassociate it, compress and cool it, and 0.82 to 0.95 metric tons of liquid hydrogen is not 1 displacement ton. I'm not a scientist, but my elementary school math is still good enough to see that.

Atomic mass of 1 Oxygen: ~16
Atomic mass of 1 Protium (Hydrogen) 1
Atomic mass of 1 H2O, assuming protium rather than deuterium: 18
2/18=1/9.

Note that Heavy Water (H2O with Deuterium) is 19 or 20.... and thus the hydrogen load can be 3/19 or 4/20... but that also pushes the density higher....
 
I remember my HS chem, and you're not making any sense. 8.1 kiloliters of H2O is 8.1 tons, or 7.36 to 8.53 tons depending on temperature, using Aramis' numbers. 1/9 of that mass is hydrogen: 0.82 to 0.95 tons. Disassociate it, compress and cool it, and 0.82 to 0.95 metric tons of liquid hydrogen is not 1 displacement ton. I'm not a scientist, but my elementary school math is still good enough to see that.

It is fairly close, though, and some clathrates have higher H density than water.

The Dton is defined as the volume taken up by a metric ton of LHyd at fuel tankage temp and pressure
 
I'm convinced. I had to scrounge up a 3D diagrom that I remembered from chemistry at State.

Remember, however, that you only need enough fuel to lift off and jump. I don't think that's a full tank. Roughly a half tank, isn't it?
 
I remember my HS chem, and you're not making any sense. 8.1 kiloliters of H2O is 8.1 tons, or 7.36 to 8.53 tons depending on temperature, using Aramis' numbers. 1/9 of that mass is hydrogen: 0.82 to 0.95 tons. Disassociate it, compress and cool it, and 0.82 to 0.95 metric tons of liquid hydrogen is not 1 displacement ton. I'm not a scientist, but my elementary school math is still good enough to see that.

Don't know what to tell ya at this point. It is what it is.
 
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Okay, so let me get things refired up (so to speak). I stole the following from a gardening website;

10 cu.yd. = 270 cu.ft.

Say the wheel barrow can hold 6 cu.ft., but it won't be a full load every time, so say 4.5 cu.ft. per trip.
- 270 / 4.5 = 60 trips.

5 minutes a trip for load, walk, and unload times ...
- 60 * 5 = 300 minutes.
- 300 minutes / 60 minutes in an hour = 5 hours.
That's an ideal situation.

10 cubic yards = 7.64554858 m^3

Let's round that to 7.5 m^3 to be safe.

*much snippage*
You need about 360 cubic meters to fill the 40 dTon H2 tank.

(360 / 7.5) * 5 = 240 hours, but that's in theory. That same quote said that it more likely take 8 hours for the whole job.

=> (360/7.5) * 8 = 384 hours => 16 days, or just over two weeks of working straight 8 hour shifts.

Wow.

I don't think any human being in their right mind could achieve that. Or rather, not get a full tank.

Using CT;

A jump 2 for a scout ship; 0.1 * 2 * 100 tons = 20 tons

Power plant; 10 * 2 => 20 tons of fuel for 4 weeks => 5 tons per week, or .7 tons per day.

=> 25 tons of fuel is needed
=> roughly 8 days of labor is needed, though you might to formulate some kind of integration to configure the rate of fuel consumed to keep the ship warm as your single man labors to continually fill the tanks.

I sure hope he has enough frozen pizza and ramen on board. :eek:
 
Remember - in the very low G of a jovian moon, a man can carry (clumsily) some strength * 70kg for a short bit, and STRx14 for hours on end.
 
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