Illegal Traveller CD Copies

[aramis]

I pay a copyright attorney $125 an hour to keep me out of trouble with copyright violations. As Gypsy Knight Games has said, what you are proposing is pirating and an illegal copyright violation. As for ridiculous, out of that $45 for a hard copy, the publisher might get $18 to $20. If you download the item directly from him, he gets all of it. I do not know how much of a fee DriveThru charges. If you want published material, the publishers have to earn sufficient money to stay in business. If they do not, they disappear.

DT takes at least 25%, usually more.

 

[wettrout]

I pay a copyright attorney $125 an hour to keep me out of trouble with copyright violations. As Gypsy Knight Games has said, what you are proposing is pirating and an illegal copyright violation. As for ridiculous, out of that $45 for a hard copy, the publisher might get $18 to $20. If you download the item directly from him, he gets all of it. I do not know how much of a fee DriveThru charges. If you want published material, the publishers have to earn sufficient money to stay in business. If they do not, they disappear.

What about Fair Use? In my proposed case, I am:

• Not making the e-copy available to others,
• In possession of a legally purchased hardcopy of the item,
• Effectively making a backup or archival copy to protect the original against loss, damage or destruction,
• Not copying the item so that I can sell the original (I am selfish and want to keep the original, too),
• Not using the copy in a different manner than was intended for the original item.

Let me reiterate that I am not suggesting that the publisher, author, etc not get the money for their product. I've paid them for my hard copy. I just don't agree that I should pay them full price if I want an e-copy of the same book I already own and I believe that Fair Use comes into play here under the situation outlined in my bullet points above.



Like I said, I already bought the CDs from Marc for those versions he offers that I own, regardless of the fact that I own the hardcopies of nearly every one (the LBBs of CT, the larger paperbacks of MT,T2K and TNE). But then Marc made them very affordable. If the same kind of deal were to come out for MgT, this conversation would be a moot point for me.


So far, about the only shady thing I have done is to take my TNE Core Rule Book (the paperback edition) to Kinkos and got the binding ripped off and rebound with a spiral binding (and laminated the front and back covers). Since I was there and to satisfy my curiosity, I did ask how much it would cost to copy the whole book and was surprised to find out that it would cost me nearly 4 times the cover price! LOL. So NOT worth it. But, I have to say the spiral binding has been totally worth it as now I can flip to a page and it lays flat, it can sit on the table with a much smaller footprint and its easier to grab. Of course, somehow, I have the feeling that what I have done there is illegal, too... Despite the fact that I purchased the copy from a gaming bookstore, have not changed anything within the pages and did not make copies, despite having priced them.

 

[wettrout]

AFAIK Mongoose is still officially part of the Brick and Mortar initiative, which means, you should get a PDF copy for every their books you buy in a brick and mortar store. Unfortunately this is not always the case, but after contacting Matthew Sprange about this, he sent me a free PDF copy of the core rules via DriveThruRPG. So asking nicely helps.

This is good to know. I will follow up on this. Thanks.

 

[wettrout]

Yes, that's still piracy and still illegal. Whether or not it is ethical, I will leave to you.

You should check with Mongoose on their forum. I have heard of folks getting PDFs upon informing Matt that they have purchased the hardcover. Not 100% sure you will get one but it's certainly worth asking.

As for it being ridiculous, I agree with you. That's why all of our hard copies come with the option to get the PDF for free. IMHO, that's just good business. Other companies don't necessarily feel that way.

Thank you for your reply. I certainly appreciate your business practice!

 

[aramis]

What about Fair Use? In my proposed case, I am:

• Not making the e-copy available to others,
• In possession of a legally purchased hardcopy of the item,
• Effectively making a backup or archival copy to protect the original against loss, damage or destruction,
• Not copying the item so that I can sell the original (I am selfish and want to keep the original, too),
• Not using the copy in a different manner than was intended for the original item.

Let me reiterate that I am not suggesting that the publisher, author, etc not get the money for their product. I've paid them for my hard copy. I just don't agree that I should pay them full price if I want an e-copy of the same book I already own and I believe that Fair Use comes into play here under the situation outlined in my bullet points above.



Like I said, I already bought the CDs from Marc for those versions he offers that I own, regardless of the fact that I own the hardcopies of nearly every one (the LBBs of CT, the larger paperbacks of MT,T2K and TNE). But then Marc made them very affordable. If the same kind of deal were to come out for MgT, this conversation would be a moot point for me.


So far, about the only shady thing I have done is to take my TNE Core Rule Book (the paperback edition) to Kinkos and got the binding ripped off and rebound with a spiral binding (and laminated the front and back covers). Since I was there and to satisfy my curiosity, I did ask how much it would cost to copy the whole book and was surprised to find out that it would cost me nearly 4 times the cover price! LOL. So NOT worth it. But, I have to say the spiral binding has been totally worth it as now I can flip to a page and it lays flat, it can sit on the table with a much smaller footprint and its easier to grab. Of course, somehow, I have the feeling that what I have done there is illegal, too... Despite the fact that I purchased the copy from a gaming bookstore, have not changed anything within the pages and did not make copies, despite having priced them.

There is no fair use of unlawfully obtained material.

You can scan your own copies of dead tree per the LOC 's decision, or you can buy the CD-Roms for GT.

You cannot legally use other's scans of the stuff. (Also per the LOC).

https://www.ipintelligencereport.co...ry-of-congress-sec-1201-copyright-exemptions/

[m;]You have asked, you have been answered. End of discussion[/m;]

 

[atpollard]

[m;]You have asked, you have been answered. End of discussion[/m;]

This is a good place for a little reminder of one of the Forum Rules:

Rule 5) Respect Copyright
No advocating nor soliciting of real-world violations of intellectual property rights, including copyright, trademark, or patent. Violations of FFE's copyrights, Mongoose's Copyrights, or SJG's Copyrights gets especially harshly treated - suspension is the default.

LINK TO RULES

The rule should help make the reason for the 'Moderator Text' clearer and leave little doubt about the official position of Marc Miller & FFE (the site owners) and COTI itself on the subject.

 

[aramis]

The legal sources for non-mongoose PDFs are FFE, COTI (the webstore is closed, but those with webstore accounts are still able to download), SJG (if one purchased through their store during their license), Drive Through RPG/RPG-Now (they are the same place), and your own scanner (only when operated by you on books you have a physical copy of) (at least until mid-2018, when the next LOC regulation is scheduled).

Anything else is a pirate scan.

 

[wettrout]

This is a good place for a little reminder of one of the Forum Rules:

Rule 5) Respect Copyright
No advocating nor soliciting of real-world violations of intellectual property rights, including copyright, trademark, or patent. Violations of FFE's copyrights, Mongoose's Copyrights, or SJG's Copyrights gets especially harshly treated - suspension is the default.

LINK TO RULES

The rule should help make the reason for the 'Moderator Text' clearer and leave little doubt about the official position of Marc Miller & FFE (the site owners) and COTI itself on the subject.

The legal sources for non-mongoose PDFs are FFE, COTI (the webstore is closed, but those with webstore accounts are still able to download), SJG (if one purchased through their store during their license), Drive Through RPG/RPG-Now (they are the same place), and your own scanner (only when operated by you on books you have a physical copy of) (at least until mid-2018, when the next LOC regulation is scheduled).

Anything else is a pirate scan.

Just by way of update, I have had this situation very carefully and caringly explained to me and all the mud I had in my questions has been cleared away. Thank you, everyone who participated, for your replies. I now return you to your regularly scheduled program...:CoW:

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I've paid them for my hard copy. I just don't agree that I should pay them full price if I want an e-copy of the same book I already own and I believe that Fair Use comes into play here under the situation outlined in my bullet points above.

I hear this all the time from people in G+ Hangouts who justify why they pirate stuff. It's like saying, "I paid full price for a hardcover book. So I should get another hardcover copy of the book for free, since I already paid to have such a book. Why must I pay twice for something I own?"

 

[wettrout]

Not Amused

I hear this all the time from people in G+ Hangouts who justify why they pirate stuff. It's like saying, "I paid full price for a hardcover book. So I should get another hardcover copy of the book for free, since I already paid to have such a book. Why must I pay twice for something I own?"

:nonono: Really? DO you call them "Pirates", too? :CoW: If you find that question antagonistic, then please consider the way you worded your post. I would appreciate it if you do not lump me in with your concept of a "pirate" without asking why I [FONT=arial,helvetica]don't agree that I should pay full price for an e-copy of the same book[/FONT] I purchased a hardcopy of from the bookstore. o:

I have already gone on record as stating that I have purchased the CD-ROMs from Marc for those systems which I play, despite the fact that in at least 2 of those systems, I owned legal copies of all of the books contained on the CDs. Further, I have been informed about how to (possibly) receive a legal free PDF for MGT Rulebooks that I own the hardcopies for.

And finally, an e-copy is not the same as a hardcopy, nor (IMHO) should it have the same value. Here are my justifications for this statement:

• Hardcopies require expensive resources to print; Paper, Cardstock, Ink, Printing Presses, Binding Machines, etc, etc, ad nauseum.
• Hardcopies require shipping and handling resources to get them to their retail outlets, even if it is mail/e-order (Amazon, etc).
• Hardcopies have more overhead for storage, retail space, environmental protection and personnel to handle.
• E-Copies on the other hand only use electrons and bandwidth, which is a fraction of the cost to "print" in PDF format.
• E-Copies do NOT require any shipping costs, as they are easily transferred over the internet. Should an e-copy be mailed via CD-ROM, the shipping costs are significantly reduced because of weight and size reduction.
• E-Copies do NOT require live retail space or brick and mortar storage space. DRive-Thru is an excellent example of this. Thus while the retail website may cost a bit to set up, it is not going to cost as much as a meat-side warehouse, book or gaming store.
• E-Copies require much less overhead to maintain, do not have to be reprinted, take up far less physical space to store, etc.

I realize that the same writers, artists, editors, etc still need to be paid. This is why I am willing to still pay for a reduced price copy (such as those offered by Marc Miller via Far Future Enterprises). Incidentally, I would not be surprised if this is the reason why Marc offers those CD-ROMs at the reduced prices he does.




[FONT=arial,helvetica]I am done with this conversation[/FONT]. If anyone wants to discuss this with me, please use PM. Thank you.:badger:

 

[aramis]

:nonono: Really? DO you call them "Pirates", too? :CoW: If you find that question antagonistic, then please consider the way you worded your post. I would appreciate it if you do not lump me in with your concept of a "pirate" without asking why I [FONT=arial,helvetica]don't agree that I should pay full price for an e-copy of the same book[/FONT] I purchased a hardcopy of from the bookstore. o:

I have already gone on record as stating that I have purchased the CD-ROMs from Marc for those systems which I play, despite the fact that in at least 2 of those systems, I owned legal copies of all of the books contained on the CDs. Further, I have been informed about how to (possibly) receive a legal free PDF for MGT Rulebooks that I own the hardcopies for.

And finally, an e-copy is not the same as a hardcopy, nor (IMHO) should it have the same value. Here are my justifications for this statement:

• Hardcopies require expensive resources to print; Paper, Cardstock, Ink, Printing Presses, Binding Machines, etc, etc, ad nauseum.
• Hardcopies require shipping and handling resources to get them to their retail outlets, even if it is mail/e-order (Amazon, etc).
• Hardcopies have more overhead for storage, retail space, environmental protection and personnel to handle.
• E-Copies on the other hand only use electrons and bandwidth, which is a fraction of the cost to "print" in PDF format.
• E-Copies do NOT require any shipping costs, as they are easily transferred over the internet. Should an e-copy be mailed via CD-ROM, the shipping costs are significantly reduced because of weight and size reduction.
• E-Copies do NOT require live retail space or brick and mortar storage space. DRive-Thru is an excellent example of this. Thus while the retail website may cost a bit to set up, it is not going to cost as much as a meat-side warehouse, book or gaming store.
• E-Copies require much less overhead to maintain, do not have to be reprinted, take up far less physical space to store, etc.

I realize that the same writers, artists, editors, etc still need to be paid. This is why I am willing to still pay for a reduced price copy (such as those offered by Marc Miller via Far Future Enterprises). Incidentally, I would not be surprised if this is the reason why Marc offers those CD-ROMs at the reduced prices he does.




[FONT=arial,helvetica]I am done with this conversation[/FONT]. If anyone wants to discuss this with me, please use PM. Thank you.:badger:

The above also borders real close to "Defending IP Violators" - any closer, and your posting privs would be seriously curtailed.

[m;]Pro-IP-Violation posts are TOTALLY UNWELCOME.[/m;]

Your top paragraph should have been a post report, as well, NOT a public issue. Since you made it public, instead, I'm assuming you want it hashed out in public. So here goes.

Shawn's point is valid, and is in line with official policy. I'd ask Shawn to edit it so it's not as accusatory, had it not already been quoted, if it had been reported. Too late now.

And a reminder: any admission of, defense of, or stated intent to: violate Marc's or Mongoose's IP will carry an automatic suspension, and a year of being moderated, and void's one's moot privs. The only offense more harshly punished is being a spammer.

Thread closed.