Imperial Crust Defence or Defence in Depth

[rancke]

I see in the Spinward Marches Campaign, Regina is mentioned as the Capitol, but Mora is not in the world descriptions.

Are you sure you're not misinterpreting a reference to Regina as a subsector capital? In the UWPs, Regina (1910) is marked with a white star, which denotes a subsector or local capital, and Mora (3124) with a black star, which denotes a sector capital.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

Are you sure you're not misinterpreting a reference to Regina as a subsector capital? In the UWPs, Regina (1910) is marked with a white star, which denotes a subsector or local capital, and Mora (3124) with a black star, which denotes a sector capital.


Hans

pg 19 CTM03

Regina Subsector (GI: Major settlements were in
place in this subsectsr very early in the history of
the Marches; Regina (1910) quickly established
itself as a trade center and the capital.

While nothing is said of Mora at all in the description of Mora subsector. Though I do see the stars you mention in the list.

 

[rancke]

pg 19 CTM03

Regina Subsector (GI: Major settlements were in
place in this subsectsr very early in the history of
the Marches; Regina (1910) quickly established
itself as a trade center and the capital.

While nothing is said of Mora at all in the description of Mora subsector. Though I do see the stars you mention in the list.

Capital of the subsector. Nothing says capital of the entire sector.

I can't even remember where the real reference to Regina as the capital of the Marches is. I think it's one of the MT maps, but I could be misremembering. I know there is one somewhere. But as against that there are a number of later references to Mora as the sector capital and Delphine as sector duchess, the last one (so far) a rather nice writeup of Mora by Yours Truly for Mongoose's Living Traveller adventures.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

I mainly go off of what was written in CT, any references there?

 

[rancke]

I mainly go off of what was written in CT, any references there?

These are the General Traveller Discussions where we don't limit ourselves to the CT material.

But if you go by CT, I don't think there are any references to Regina as the capital of the Marches at all, and I've already mentioned the UWP notes in SMC.

Incidentally, Norris can't be the sector duke, because the sector duke should be able to give orders to the sector admiral, and yet Santanocheev can issue orders about staying away from interdicted worlds that Norris can't countermand on his own authority (he needs an Imperial Warrant to do so).


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

CT material is going to be most canonical to the discussion though (also most accessible).

I know of Norris' mission to Algine, is that described anywhere in detail?

 

[rancke]

CT material is going to be most canonical to the discussion though (also most accessible).

IMO setting material is where you find it and is valid unless someone in authority decanonize it. The only thing that is CT specific are CT rules. CT certainly isn't automatically more canonical than anything else (Though I won't go so far as those who maintain that any new material automatically overwrites anything older). My default attitude is that if there is contradictory canon then the bit that makes most sense should prevail.

I know of Norris' mission to Algine, is that described anywhere in detail?

No, the few hints in SMC is all we have. I have a few surmises of my own, but that's just idle speculations, of course.

I think Norris got stuck down on Algine and had to trek acroos a goodly part of the surface. One of those we're-on-this-continent-and-the-only-way-off- this-planet-is-on-that-continent adventures. He's gone so long that it would have been faster for him to fetch a new warrant on Capital!

Perhaps there was a traitor working for Santanocheev in his party who betrayed him?


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

IMO setting material is where you find it and is valid unless someone in authority decanonize it. The only thing that is CT specific are CT rules. CT certainly isn't automatically more canonical than anything else (Though I won't go so far as those who maintain that any new material automatically overwrites anything older). My default attitude is that if there is contradictory canon then the bit that makes most sense should prevail.

I am not against new material, it's just that I don't know it, that is why I threw out there I'm a CT guy.

 

[rancke]

I am not against new material, it's just that I don't know it, that is why I threw out there I'm a CT guy.

Not a problem, in the Traveller community we're always willing to educate our fellow Traveller fans.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

This is where the ubiquitous type s comes in, put on a rotating month shift:

1 week on watch
1 week returning on jump
1 week refuel/refit/debrief
1 week outbound jump

With ships changing watch shift every week.

Though even if it gets caught and destroyed, you get a two week interval before realizing "rot-roh, something is up" and by which time the enemy fleet has made two jumps and can be 8 parsecs on it's way to it's objective. Add to this time your own communication time and mobilization time.

I've always thought naval scouts (and picket ships) as ships with fuel for 2 jumps and no weapons (to avoid them to try any heroics, as they are only to jump to warn if enemy is detected).

They should be deployed alone or in pairs in empty space zones (let's say between Earth and mars, in the middle of nothing), and just listening at the pasive sensors, only leaving their post to refuel if needed.

If they detect an incoming fleet (or military ship) with negative IFF code, their orders are always to fall down to a preasigned base and inform, so you can expect to be informed in 8-10 days of any fleet trying to cross the border.

Of course this will not allow you to intercept the detected forces (unless objective is evident, but I won't rely on that), but will allow you to begin preplanned responses (incluiding warning alarm) about a week or two earlier.

 

[McPerth]

CT material is going to be most canonical to the discussion though (also most accessible).

About CT being the most canonical, that can be arged a lot, as MT was a reviewing of CT with additions and added house rules, and other versions use too different rules as to be discussed here.

And that's only if we talk about a timeline prior to 1116, as, after that, CT has no canonical value (in events and OTU, I mean, not about rules).

And about being the most accessible... well, except for MGT (and maybe GT, I don't know for sure, as Ive never played it) that is sold in the shops today, all other versions are nearly equally accessible (or unacessible, depending on your point of view), AFAIK

 

[Dragoner]

About CT being the most canonical, that can be arged a lot, as MT was a reviewing of CT with additions and added house rules, and other versions use too different rules as to be discussed here.

And that's only if we talk about a timeline prior to 1116, as, afte rthat, CT has no canonical value (in events and OTU, I mean, not about rules).

And about being the most accessible... well, except for MGT (and maybe GT, I don't know for sure, as Ive never played it) that is sold in the shops today, all other versions are nearly equally accessible (or unacessible, depending on your point of view), AFAIK

Most of what is canon is laid down during the CT years.

You can buy the disks cheap from FFE, I have never seen a Mongoose item, I don't think they stock them in the US. I only heard of Mongoose from COTI.

 

[Dragoner]

I've always thought naval scouts (and picket ships) as ships with fuel for 2 jumps and no weapons (to avoid them to try any heroics, as they are only to jump to warn if enemy is detected).

They should be deployed alone or in pairs in empty space zones (let's say between Earth and mars, in the middle of nothing), and just listening at the pasive sensors, only leaving their post to refuel if needed.

If they detect an incoming fleet (or military ship) with negative IFF code, their orders are always to fall down to a preasigned base and inform, so you can expect to be informed in 8-10 days of any fleet trying to cross the border.

Of course this will not allow you to intercept the detected forces (unless objective is evident, but I won't rely on that), but will allow you to begin preplanned responses (incluiding warning alarm) about a week or two earlier.

I think it makes sense to use the ubiquitous type s, and with good warning and it jumping out after seeing the enemy fleet, you will have a weeks notice. Poor guys jumping in for the next detail, oh well, I guess surrender is an option. My earlier post is a worst case scenario and even with that you are only down one week. I can see the staging areas for the defensive fleet being about 12 parsecs from the border, form up and attack, not to far out to get timely communication, but not to close to get hit without warning.

 

[McPerth]

Most of what is canon is laid down during the CT years.

True, as it was the first version, and so set up the canon, but some things were revised (not to say corrected) on latter versions.

As I understand, you mean CT is the version that contains (or begins) most of the canon, not that it is the most canonical (at least if that means that it prevails if contradictory canon is found with other versions).

You can buy the disks cheap from FFE, I have never seen a Mongoose item, I don't think they stock them in the US. I only heard of Mongoose from COTI.

So can other versions (at least MT, for what I know, not sure about others).

I cannot talk about US, nor even about all Spain, but in Barcelona most MGT books can be found in store (or at least they could be last time I checked). Surely it would be more expensive than buying a CD from FFE, though.

 

[McPerth]

I think it makes sense to use the ubiquitous type s, and with good warning and it jumping out after seeing the enemy fleet, you will have a weeks notice. Poor guys jumping in for the next detail, oh well, I guess surrender is an option. My earlier post is a worst case scenario and even with that you are only down one week. I can see the staging areas for the defensive fleet being about 12 parsecs from the border, form up and attack, not to far out to get timely communication, but not to close to get hit without warning.

The type S scout may be used if the patroled area is 2- parsecs from the base to warn, but I've always thought the IN has some picket ships with greater jump capability just for this pourpose, deployed as I told before.

I think the best ships for that would be J6 naval courriers, able to warn a base up to 6 parsecs away, and so being sure thay have at least a week before enemy fleet arrives (as no enemy has J6 capability). If you can only warn a base 2 parsecs away, enemy fleet may well be there before it has had time to take more than the first steps to war footing.

Of course I assume a minimal intelligence is there that tells war is possible, and those valuable J6 courriers are only so used in high threat areas, as it would be too expensive to use them along all the border (well, perhaps the rift borders may be excluded... )

 

[Dragoner]

True, as it was the first version, and so set up the canon, but some things were revised (not to say corrected) on latter versions.

As I understand, you mean CT is the version that contains (or begins) most of the canon, not that it is the most canonical (at least if that means that it prevails if contradictory canon is found with other versions).

As one gets farther from CT, there are alternate timelines etc. or big jumps back or forward in time. The only contiguous versions are CT and MT as far as I know, I actually would like to get the MT/TNE/Paranoia-JG disks, I wonder if I can get the Challenge disk as well, on the 443 deal, even though it is a bit more expensive.

 

[Dragoner]

The type S scout may be used if the patroled area is 2- parsecs from the base to warn, but I've always thought the IN has some picket ships with greater jump capability just for this pourpose, deployed as I told before.

I think the best sips for that would be J6 naval courriers, able to warn a base up to 6 parsecs away, and so being sure thay have at least a week before enemy fleet arrives (as no enemy has J6 capability). If you can only warn a base 2 parsecs away, enemy fleet may well be there before it has had time to take more than the first steps to war footing.

Of course I assume a minimal intelligence is there that tells war is possible, and those valuable J6 courriers are only so used in high threat areas, as it would be too expensive to use them along all the border (well, perhaps the rift borders may be excluded... )

The type S is cheap, not so much with the J-6 fleet courier, but 2 parsecs or 6, there still is a week travel time. If they hit a fortified world on the border, you really arn't going to need so much forewarning, just form fleets and attack. I still think you will have your fleets staged back, and no matter what, the initial phases of the war will happen in a 2 week to month window of forming and attacking, it is only a question of how deep the enemy car get in that time. Though with the build time on capital ships, I think the fleet will be held back in protected zones, worlds can hold out for years, but if your fleet is destroyed, it's a long time building another one, even though I haven't seen a huge amount of info on production capacity.

 

[McPerth]

The type S is cheap, not so much with the J-6 fleet courier, but 2 parsecs or 6, there still is a week travel time. If they hit a fortified world on the border, you really arn't going to need so much forewarning, just form fleets and attack. I still think you will have your fleets staged back, and no matter what, the initial phases of the war will happen in a 2 week to month window of forming and attacking, it is only a question of how deep the enemy car get in that time. Though with the build time on capital ships, I think the fleet will be held back in protected zones, worlds can hold out for years, but if your fleet is destroyed, it's a long time building another one, even though I haven't seen a huge amount of info on production capacity.

True about the Scout vs courrier matter. It's because of that I said courriers would only be used in high thread areas.

This week you may gain in J6, though, could allow you to ready any combat ship that could be in maintenance (about 5% of your SDB fleet at any moment, if you rotate them for annual maintenance) and to position all your ships in strategic places, withrawing them from customs duty to put them on war duty, as an example.

Noneless, I guess you're right about most of the battle fleet being deep on Imperium (Corridor Depot, Trin, Rhylanor, etc) to be sent for latter stages of war, as you say.

About worlds holding for years, it depends mostly on the habitability of the world and the determination to take it. Earth holds for nearly 9 months to a determined assauldt by the IN. Glisten could have to surrund quite early if really thertened, as any bombing would be catastrophic.

About production capabilities, neither I have found much information (though it can be extrapolated from TCS, and if so it's enormous), but about building times there is some information, and you're right, if you lose your fleet, you may well not be able to have more until the war is over, unless you have ships to transfer from other places.

As the same applies to both sides, I guess if war is not reolved quite quickly it will resort to a protracted attrition war, as both sides will try to avoid losses.

It's also worth to say that, if combat is resolved as HG/MT tells, to keep the 'battlefield' after a space battle would cut your losses quite a lot, as in those systems quite more ships are dissabled (mission killed, but in reaparable state) than truly destoyed (not worth reapir), so the hulks you recover can be repaired, while if you retreat your hulks are gone for good (captured/scuttled or fully destroyed). I've comented that many times in other threads.

 

[rancke]

As one gets farther from CT, there are alternate timelines etc. or big jumps back or forward in time. The only contiguous versions are CT and MT as far as I know...

I assume you mean 'the setting material published to support CT' and 'the setting material published to support MT'. Rules and setting are two different things. You can run adventures in any milieu with CT, not just Classic Era, and adventures in any milieu with MT and TNE and T4 and GT and T20 and MGT, and so on and so forth.

Information about how things are in 1116 can be used to extrapolate how things were in 1105 and vice versa. If you have a Vice Admiral Elphinstone in 1110, it's not a bad guess that there might have been a Captain or perhaps Commodore Elphinstone around in 1105. If you have a world writeup for 993, you have some clues for how things might look in 1105. If you're told in GT:Nobles that Delphine had been duchess of Mora for 106 years in 1120, then you know that she had been Duchess of Mora for 91 years in 1105, even if there is no CT material that says so. Everything is grist for the creative mill. (Except for discrepancies -- those are gravel in the mill ).


Hans

 

[ThunderChilde]

Most of what is canon is laid down during the CT years.

You can buy the disks cheap from FFE, I have never seen a Mongoose item, I don't think they stock them in the US. I only heard of Mongoose from COTI.

Local stores carry what they want, and distributors are seperate issue. Here in my little corner of the US both of my local games shops carry and stock MGT and GT.