Imperial Crust Defence or Defence in Depth

[Matt123]

Well, as I know canon, the backbone of a network to reach important places (at least as to general population matters) is the Xboat network, with less travelled and out of the way system being information fed by traders (I gess mostly by subsided traders/lineers, as they need regular service for the mail and news).

For official/naval information/messages, that's another matter. The TJ J6 trader takes this role for official information/courriers, and I've always believed there are small (200-400 dton) J6 naval courriers for the IN. (There was an adventure in a Challenge, (sorry, I don't remeber which one now) where a 200 dton J6 courrier (MT design) was presented, IIRC).

The x-boat network covers civilian needs, not Imperial needs. Information is power and the power brokers in the Imperium need to have access to and control the release of information carefully. To this end the Emperor will maintain fast comms to his next level of command in both the Navy and Nobility. Fast comms beyond that will depend on assets available to those leaders.

The secret squirrel high jump trader will fill some of those needs.

Except in war/emergency time, where scouts fall under Navy command...

By which time it is too late to use them as tripwire forces to warn of invasion. And after the fact you still have J2 ships reporting on the movements of J3 fleets. Scouts will be very useful to the Navy in wartime, but predominantly for non-time sensitive intelligence.

I think canon (Rebelion Sourcebook, MT) puts your 1st mission on the TJ neetwork, more than on the naval courriers. Of course is perfectly believable the navy wants to keep their own channels feed by IN courriers.

Yep in both cases. Additionally there are Imperial advantages to having at least two independent J6 routes back to Core. If the Navy goes rogue, how otherwise will the Nobility report back (& vice versa).

I fully agree about your second point (talked about that above).

About your third mission, I guess not only Sector fleet Aldmirals have them, but most fleets (and even squadrons acting independenlty) would have some naval courriers attached. They not only keep them in communication with other fleet elements (forwarding any unexpected move to their HQs, but they can be used as scouts, sending them up to 3 parsecs away with half of its jump fuel (argeable in MT rules, but taht's another discussion), or farther using drop tanks to scout and with orders of never engaging, just scan and inform (talked about that on a post above)

Agreed. All J6 couriers will be considered Sector Admiral assets, parcelled out to sub-commands as determined by the Admirals priorities. Those priorities will include the circumstances you refer to and more. The key point tho' is that there will be a limited supply of J6 assets and the Admiral will take a keen interest in where they are deployed. Not every Fleet, Naval Base or Sub-Sector Capital will get them.

Keep in mind that for every J6 comms link, you will need to allocate around 6x J6 assets to ensure constant comms (in any given week, 2 in jump space, 2 on turn-around, 1 doing maintenance/training, 1 on stand-down/shore leave). There are some economies by servicing a a multi-jump J6 route, but its still expensive in ships.

Tripwire forces will need around 1 to 2 J6 assets per hex, plus fuellers for empty hexes. There are a lot of hexes to watch on threatened boarders.

All mounting up, to meaning that if as the Sector Admiral, you want to know stuff asap to better inform your decisions, you need to be pretty savvy on how you use those J6 ships you have.

 

[rancke]

Actually its not quite canon. The X-Boat network is the primary carrier of *public* information, the Imperium (and presumably the major commercial organisations) quietly maintain a discreet J6 network for their primary communications and actively discourage the establishment of any open J6 network (presumably very actively) in order to retain a substantial communication advantage over public news.

And that's the bit that's broken. With two canonical J6 networks (IN and Imperiallines) and a large number of probably existing (as in 'hard to imagine they wouldn't exist') networks (14 megacorporate ones to begin with) and J5 couriers canonically available to mere subsector-sized merchant lines and J6 ships available to any civilian willing to pay the prize (The ship design system allows any PC with the requisite money to have a J6 ship built at any TL15 world with a Class A starport), the number of alternate information conduits are too big for the Imperium to control even before the member worlds and the professional news organizations get into the game.

Note that I'm fully aware that many of those networks will want to keep some secrets. But the sheer number of people who get 'advance' news is just too big to keep many secrets for very long. (Of course, the entire content of that newsplaque the passenger from Capital was carrying will become public news the second it gets into the hands of a news organization).

Also note that I'm not arguing that these alternate networks are either as organized nor as widespread as the X-boats. But they don't need to be. If news reaches Mora several months ahead of the X-boat news, it's also going to reach the furtherst backwater before the X-boat news gets there.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Yep in both cases. Additionally there are Imperial advantages to having at least two independent J6 routes back to Core. If the Navy goes rogue, how otherwise will the Nobility report back (& vice versa).

They could try the X-boats, I suppose. Incidentally, the Imperiallines setup belongs to the Imperial family personally (it's owned by the Imperial Household). You can imagine that the archdukes and the powerful dukes would have their own alternate information networks. Very limited networks (Capital to the duke's capital, sector capital to his capital, neighboring dukes' capitals to his capital, and internal to his own duchy), but it's hard to imagine that they wouldn't be there.

All J6 couriers will be considered Sector Admiral assets, parcelled out to sub-commands as determined by the Admiral's priorities.

My take is that each fleet will have several squadrons of fleet couriers and that Sector Command will have half a dozen or more squadrons.

Those priorities will include the circumstances you refer to and more. The key point tho' is that there will be a limited supply of J6 assets and the Admiral will take a keen interest in where they are deployed. Not every Fleet, Naval Base or Sub-Sector Capital will get them.

Why not? They're not that expensive.

Keep in mind that for every J6 comms link, you will need to allocate around 6x J6 assets to ensure constant comms (in any given week, 2 in jump space, 2 on turn-around, 1 doing maintenance/training, 1 on stand-down/shore leave). There are some economies by servicing a a multi-jump J6 route, but its still expensive in ships.

That depends on how frequent you want those regular courier runs to be. To have a courier stationed at a base 'just in case', you only need about 1.1 courier.

All mounting up, to meaning that if as the Sector Admiral, you want to know stuff asap to better inform your decisions, you need to be pretty savvy on how you use those J6 ships you have.

The individual fleets will have some lower-performance couriers too. The couriers going between Regina and Rhylanor, for example, only need jump-5 capability; J6 couriers would be wasted there.


Hans

 

[Matt123]

Why not? They're not that expensive.

Its the age old question of why are there never enough support ships to do everything needed in war. The political realities of budgets & asset allocation is that the big hitters get the lions share of the budget and the balance has to cover a multitude of other roles of which J6 ships are only one.

In TCS I will build 2-3 times the high jump Naval scout/couriers I think I will need, because they are cheap. But in TCS I'm not concerned with escorting civilian traffic, showing the flag, piracy suppresion, cruiser operations, economic raiding, supporting privateers, establishing deep space fuel supplies, R&D ships, Intel ships, Black ops ships, Troop carriers, Assault ships, etc, etc.

All support ships are cheap. The difficulty is when faced with a lot of secondary tasks (ie: not main fleet engagements) that must be accomplished, you have to make choices on where do you spend your credits.

And of course, at the start of every war, you never have enough support ships.

--//--

On the allocation of Fleet couriers, I could be being a bit tight. Its the relative scarcity I wanted to express more than specific numbers.

You raise good points on the relative availability of J6 ships and the desirability they hold for other entities. Are they commercially viable though? And if not, what is the cost of maintaining a J6 network for a megacorp? For that matter, what is the pay-off? I'm picking most of the Imperial politicing for Megacorps happens close to Core. Off the cuff, I can see J6 yachts for the Megacorp policy makers, but a J6 courier net?

 

[rancke]

You raise good points on the relative availability of J6 ships and the desirability they hold for other entities. Are they commercially viable though? And if not, what is the cost of maintaining a J6 network for a megacorp? For that matter, what is the pay-off? I'm picking most of the Imperial politicing for Megacorps happens close to Core. Off the cuff, I can see J6 yachts for the Megacorp policy makers, but a J6 courier net?

Well, if it's useful to have an informational edge, megacorporations will want to prevent their rivals from having one. And if it isn't useful, why should the Imperium be trying to suppress J5 and J6 civillian message traffic? And if they're not trying to suppress civilian message traffic, we can assume that J6 passenger liners will spread the word without being paid for it.


Hans

 

[Uxi]

They could try the X-boats, I suppose. Incidentally, the Imperiallines setup belongs to the Imperial family personally (it's owned by the Imperial Household). You can imagine that the archdukes and the powerful dukes would have their own alternate information networks. Very limited networks (Capital to the duke's capital, sector capital to his capital, neighboring dukes' capitals to his capital, and internal to his own duchy), but it's hard to imagine that they wouldn't be there.

Given it's a feudal system, I imagine the Imperial Navy is itself used by the sector nobility, as well and that practically so would major components of the megacorp network(s). For that matter, I'd see the same thing out of the Megacorps. I'd see the upper limit of 3I-wide J6 networks being 15: IN, Imperiallines and the 13 Megacorps. I could well see a couple of megacorps, mostly those that aren't in direct competition with each other (SuSAG and GSbAG, for ex) pooling their resources. Lower limit is probably 4 or 5 (IJ, IL).

My take is that each fleet will have several squadrons of fleet couriers and that Sector Command will have half a dozen or more squadrons.

Sounds like a bit too much, to me. I'm more with Matt on that one.

That depends on how frequent you want those regular courier runs to be. To have a courier stationed at a base 'just in case', you only need about 1.1 courier.

How often is there a NEED to have news transferred at J6 and then how often is imperative to get it faster than the X-boat? Certainly on some occasions, but enough to justify the cost? Have to account for misjumps if you want available all the time and what if one goes missing due to mishap, piracy, etc? Practically, no less than 2 or 3 every 6 parsecs from border to border?

I think we need to go back to the roughly feudal system. The high nobles will use the IN system and seems most likely most of the megacorps would piggy back on that. Might not be considered entirely trustworthy from the megacorp perspective, so there add be up to a half dozen pooled megacorp networks, as well.

 

[McPerth]

How often is there a NEED to have news transferred at J6 and then how often is imperative to get it faster than the X-boat? Certainly on some occasions, but enough to justify the cost? Have to account for misjumps if you want available all the time and what if one goes missing due to mishap, piracy, etc? Practically, no less than 2 or 3 every 6 parsecs from border to border?

IMO it's not a question of 'how often', but of 'where will we'. If you don't know where will you need them, and you won't even know they're needed until some weeks after the need, you have no choice but having there prepositioned, and so you need quite a lot of them to have them in any need spot.

In this case I'm with Hans, I think there are quite many of them. After all, its cost (even if hight), it's no more than a minimal percentage of the IN budget. At MCr 225 each, you can build a lot of them for the cost of a light cruiser. If you think those 'fast' communications can multiply the effectiveness of this same CL (and any other fleet unit), either alloing it to be where needed or removing it from scout duty (a typical cruiser role), they are cost/effective.

About mishaps/piracy, I think those ships jump mainly to/from bases/fleets, so piracy is rarely a problem ans mishaps, already rare in well maintained/served ships (as are most IN ships), are never far from relieve (except on scout duty, but I already told before as how to reduce danger of facing enemy/pirate ships to nearly negligible). About mishaps, I keep saying they will usually be sent in pairs (at least) to this duty.

I think we need to go back to the roughly feudal system. The high nobles will use the IN system and seems most likely most of the megacorps would piggy back on that. Might not be considered entirely trustworthy from the megacorp perspective, so there add be up to a half dozen pooled megacorp networks, as well.

Pehaps J6 shipd are used for reccon (as told before) and HQ to HQ communications, and J4 courriers/scouts for dettached units.

This would avoid those dettached units to venture too far form the main fleet and be too easly too dispersed to become effective.

 

[rancke]

Given it's a feudal system, I imagine the Imperial Navy is itself used by the sector nobility, as well and that practically so would major components of the megacorp network(s).

The Imperium is not a feudal system. It has certain pseudo-feudal traits, but that's all. Nobles are appointed by the emperor and swear loyalty directly to him. The Imperial Navy answers to a ministry on Capital, with dukes assigned by the Emperor to provide civilian oversight, much like royal governors and viceroys of the European empires provided royal oversight of ships and troops stationed in their provinces. The "governors" (i.e. high dukes) are hereditary, but the emperor has every right to assign their duchies to someone else if the heir is unable to fulfil his duties.

How often is there a NEED to have news transferred at J6 and then how often is imperative to get it faster than the X-boat? Certainly on some occasions, but enough to justify the cost? Have to account for misjumps if you want available all the time and what if one goes missing due to mishap, piracy, etc? Practically, no less than 2 or 3 every 6 parsecs from border to border?

For vital messages you'd send more than one courier. Otherwise, it's not a big deal if a courier is delayed; the next one will carry copies of the reports it was carrying. And misjumps aren't all that common, nor are they always fatal.

I think we need to go back to the roughly feudal system.

That never existed if you examine the early descriptions of how the Imperium works.

The high nobles will use the IN system and seems most likely most of the megacorps would piggy back on that. Might not be considered entirely trustworthy from the megacorp perspective, so there add be up to a half dozen pooled megacorp networks, as well.

Even that is enough to invalidate the canonical story of how Norris got advance notice of Strephon's death, and it certainly doesn't explain why the X-boat network hasn't been upgraded to J5 400 years ago and J6 a century ago. Nor does it explain why high-performance traffic doesn't carry news.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Even that is enough to invalidate the canonical story of how Norris got advance notice of Strephon's death, and it certainly doesn't explain why the X-boat network hasn't been upgraded to J5 400 years ago and J6 a century ago. Nor does it explain why high-performance traffic doesn't carry news.

I guess those who have access to J6 courriers are the same in position to take the most advantage of this forward knowledge and tho ones with more to lose if it's made for general population to have access to it.

That's not to say some news doesn't leak, and I envison a TU full of rumor from those leacks (awaiting official release from Xboat)... or from someone interested on them to be believed and telling they come from those leacks.

As most population doesn't know what of them are in each cathegories, they're in the rumor pool, and Xboat offcial release needed for the population to know, even if they suspect (know?) there are better informed people, they accept it as a fact of life, as we accept today the same thing (even if the cause is quite different).

 

[Uxi]

The Imperium is not a feudal system. It has certain pseudo-feudal traits, but that's all. Nobles are appointed by the emperor and swear loyalty directly to him. The Imperial Navy answers to a ministry on Capital, with dukes assigned by the Emperor to provide civilian oversight, much like royal governors and viceroys of the European empires provided royal oversight of ships and troops stationed in their provinces. The "governors" (i.e. high dukes) are hereditary, but the emperor has every right to assign their duchies to someone else if the heir is unable to fulfil his duties.

Hmm, I guess I read the "nobility" entry in the oldest encyclopedia entries differently than you. I know the Imperial Navy has a parallel command structure, but I never saw it as mutually exclusive and given the way the Rebellion flared into regional factions, it seems it was de facto 'pseudo-feudal' if not practically.

Besides, the very purpose of the nobility is to delegate the Emperor's authority and responsibility to vassals, isn't it? Feudal model fits that perfectly. Sure, it's not medieval France, but there's clearly some mechanism of classic feudalism but it's not the only other alternative given the "age of sail" travel dynamic is bureaucracy.

For vital messages you'd send more than one courier. Otherwise, it's not a big deal if a courier is delayed; the next one will carry copies of the reports it was carrying. And misjumps aren't all that common, nor are they always fatal.

Right. Nor is being waylaid by pirates all that likely, but yeah pairs is fine as long as they're not trying to be as ubiquitous as Xboats.

That never existed if you examine the early descriptions of how the Imperium works.

Hmm... Refresh my memory with a citation.

Even that is enough to invalidate the canonical story of how Norris got advance notice of Strephon's death, and it certainly doesn't explain why the X-boat network hasn't been upgraded to J5 400 years ago and J6 a century ago. Nor does it explain why high-performance traffic doesn't carry news.

lol, always seemed to come back to "the Vilani are conservative" tripe, didn't it?

Seriously, though, seems simple enough that the IN and Imperiallines/intelligence are the official command & control mechanisms of the Imperium. Any megacorp networks could well be carrying SOME news, but not exclusively so and not in a deliberately official mechanism like the X-Boat network. That's anything but mutually exclusive to Norris getting advanced warning through Imperiallines.

I imagine a response on why they're not upgrading the Xboat Network to J6 would be met with a response similar to asking the Obama administration about Constellation and manned spaceflight. They may or may not be deliberately lying, but their priorities are clearly elsewhere and the private sector is invited to fill in the gap. Obviously, they have no incentive to be as comprehensive as the XBoat Network and the nobles themselves already get the J6 news THEY want/need anyway.

 

[mike wightman]

Sigh - we're almost back to that great question, who has the greater authority.

Can an IN ship captain ignore the "request" of a noble or is he duty bound to act on his "requests".

GURPS Nobles helps clear this one up if you consider it canon.

 

[Uxi]

Rebellion Sourcebook answered it, too, though don't have GT: Nobles to compare. Rebellion SB says that most admirals ARE nobles and are answerable to the sector/subsector Duke, as well as the Archduke of their Domain but are only supposed to get direct orders from their chain of command.

An individual ship captain, though, has it simpler and only takes an order from his squadron commander, who takes his orders from the numbered Fleet Admiral. Might be a bad career decision to ignore a noble outright, and discretion would call for tact in avoiding a disagreeable order rather than outright defiance.

 

[Matt123]

Civilian traffic doesn't have a pressing need for anything greater than J4. Most approximations of Imperial economics reduce the volume of trade rapidly after 2 or 3 parsecs. If trade isn't driving a need for J6 ships, I don't see them happening.

And that ignores the loss of capacity due to drives & fuel. For example a TL15 JD6 MD2 1000 ton payload ship comes in at 8000 ton & 3810MCr (after discount). While a TL15 JD2 MD2 8000ton ship carries 5182ton & costs 1958MCr after discount.

A quick & dirty ratio of cost / payload gives
J6... 3810MCr / 1000Ton payload = 3.81
J2... 1958MCr / 5182Ton payload = 0.38

A J6 commercial ship is 10x less efficient and only speeds up the journey by 3x. This reason alone puts J6 commercial ships out of the picture. They are not commercially viable vs the J2 competition.

Another way to look at it, is if 6 J2 ships can reliably deliver 5182 ton every week, but taking 3 weeks to get there. (J2 Shipsx6 cost 11,748MCr). It takes 10 J6 ships to deliver 5000tons every week, taking a 1 week journey time. (J6 ships x10 cost 38,100MCr plus an extra 200 crews wages). (Both J2 & J6 ships have around 50 crew)

There will of course be profitable niche J6 markets to fill, but its a big step from satisfying a niche market to running a J6 commercial route from the Core to Mora.

 

[Matt123]

Sigh - we're almost back to that great question, who has the greater authority.

Can an IN ship captain ignore the "request" of a noble or is he duty bound to act on his "requests".

GURPS Nobles helps clear this one up if you consider it canon.

And Grand Fleet also discusses it following the line of GURPS Nobles.

 

[rancke]

Civilian traffic doesn't have a pressing need for anything greater than J4. Most approximations of Imperial economics reduce the volume of trade rapidly after 2 or 3 parsecs. If trade isn't driving a need for J6 ships, I don't see them happening.

What approximation of Imperial economics do you know of except GT:Far Trader? And FT encompasses trade from one end of the Imperium to the other. Volumes go down drastically with distance, true, but there remains some. "China trade", if you like. I'm pretty sure (haven't checked, I admit) that if you compare the volume of Brtish trade with China in the Age of Sail to its trade with continental Europe, it will be comparatively low too. But East Indiamen reached China every year.

A J6 commercial ship is 10x less efficient and only speeds up the journey by 3x. This reason alone puts J6 commercial ships out of the picture. They are not commercially viable vs the J2 competition.

Actually, accepting your figures (the results vary according to what ship design system you consider closest to "reality"), the per-parsec cost of jump-6 is only three and a half times greater than jump-2, since the J2 ship has to jump three times to equal each of the J6 ship's jumps (as your example showed). There could be goods that people would pay three times as much to get three times as fast.

Still, it's true that for local trade you'd use J1, J2, or J3, depending on the local distances, and for long-distance traffic, jump-3 is the most efficient (costs about the same as J2 and is half again as fast). Jump-6 is roughly four times as expensive as jump-3, so only people who're prepared to pay four times as much to get there in half the time will travel by jump-6 liner. you'd almost have to be a millionaire (or work for an interstellar corporation) to pay that sort of money. But high-population worlds have LOTS of millionaires.

There will of course be profitable niche J6 markets to fill, but its a big step from satisfying a niche market to running a J6 commercial route from the Core to Mora.

All it takes is ONE niche that requires jump-6 connections and you've got your information conduit.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Rebellion Sourcebook answered it, too, though don't have GT: Nobles to compare. Rebellion SB says that most admirals ARE nobles and are answerable to the sector/subsector Duke, as well as the Archduke of their Domain but are only supposed to get direct orders from their chain of command.

According to GT:Nobles, all fleet admirals are at least knights and all sector admirals are at least barons. But they're admirals because they were promoted to admiral. Their status as noble or non-noble may have influenced their promotion, but any non-noble who is promoted to fleet admiral will get a knighthood or a baronetcy; a barony if he becomes a sector admiral.

In the FFW boardgame, Norris' counter function as the most senior of the 'one-star' admirals (presumably one-stars are fleet admirals since one of the two-stars is Sector Admiral Santanocheev). Since Norris resigned his commision and left the Imperial Navy (with the rank of commander) when he became duke, his ability to give orders to other one-star admirals is presumably ex officio as a subsector duke. Note that the boardgame shows that he is unable to give orders to two-stars; the background material shows that he can't even countermand Santanocheev's ban on visiting interdicted worlds, even in his very own duchy.

Ther boardgame also implies that admirals take orders from more senior admirals, chain of command or no chain of command. How much of a game artifact this is is an open question. At the very least I'd assume that Admiral Medium Seniority won't countermand any orders Admiral Senior has issued to Admiral Junior without a very good reason.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

Can an IN ship captain ignore the "request" of a noble or is he duty bound to act on his "requests".

Normally in the real world, yes, positively so unless the noble was in and of superior rank in the military. Otherwise you would have random people giving orders?

About J-6 couriers, I would say there is a probability they would not be used as scouts, as their capture would preclude it, so as to not have the technology fall into the enemy hands. Much safer to use type S scouts, you don't lose time with them, just they have shorter legs.


Also I noticed on the spine of the CT CD, it says "The Canon on CD-ROM".

 

[Matt123]

What approximation of Imperial economics do you know of except GT:Far Trader? And FT encompasses trade from one end of the Imperium to the other. Volumes go down drastically with distance, true, but there remains some. "China trade", if you like. I'm pretty sure (haven't checked, I admit) that if you compare the volume of Brtish trade with China in the Age of Sail to its trade with continental Europe, it will be comparatively low too. But East Indiamen reached China every year.

Yes, and that holds very well in the Imperium. Like old sailing ships, J2 traders can travel a long way in search of cargo. The traditional merchant adventure has PC's travelling such long distances on errands for patrons. But that is not the norm for interstellar trade.

Actually, accepting your figures.... ... There could be goods that people would pay three times as much to get three times as fast.

Very few. Triple the transport cost and as a business you will start looking at building the goods locally, utilizing local raw materials and hiring local cheap labour.

Then you have to ask, whether there is enough consistent, paying business to justify a J6 ship. Between two High Pop Industrialised worlds J6 apart? Perhaps. Between a High Pop Industrialized world and the rest of the sub-sector? I doubt it.

Still, it's true that for local trade you'd use J1, J2, or J3, depending on the local distances, and for long-distance traffic, jump-3 is the most efficient (costs about the same as J2 and is half again as fast). Jump-6 is roughly four times as expensive as jump-3, so only people who're prepared to pay four times as much to get there in half the time will travel by jump-6 liner. you'd almost have to be a millionaire (or work for an interstellar corporation) to pay that sort of money. But high-population worlds have LOTS of millionaires.

Many of whom, will own shares in a yacht that suits their holiday & business needs, similar to several executive jet businesses today. It'll cost more again and is unlikely to be J6, but it keeps them away from the rif-raf, tedious customs ques and carries the Silver Cloud Grav-Rolls Royce as well.

Others will look up a Han Solo in a dingy bar with a J6 dunger looking for a patron and prepared to "customize" the trip experience to the patrons needs.

I guess I'm saying that for your target market, they have the credits to have a LOT of options. And speed of travel is only one criteria they will look at.

The closest analogy we have today is Concorde vs the 747, capable of halving travel time between London & New York. The 747 (our J3 equivalent) was widely sold (over 1400 built to date) and operated by many countries & corporations. The Concord (our J6 equivalent) was only 20 in number and predominantly operated between London, Paris and New York. Since stopping in 2000, there hasn't been a replacement.

All it takes is ONE niche that requires jump-6 connections and you've got your information conduit.

Thats a very big, very consistent and very profitable niche, required to justify the costs of a J6 information conduit from Core to Mora. I doubt it exists and if it does, it would definitely no longer be a niche.

 

[McPerth]

Can an IN ship captain ignore the "request" of a noble or is he duty bound to act on his "requests".

I guess the question would be: 'can a noble give a "request" (never mind an order) to a IN ship captain?'

I guess not. The military chain of command is usually quite thight, and an officier may not receive orders outside it (except on emergencies, whare, if cut form his chain of command, as is usual in TU, he can act on his own initiative).

If que agrees this "request", he'll be seen by the IN HQ as acting on his own initiative. That can be good or bad, depending on he results and the influence of the noble "requesting" it. Anyway, should tings go bad, he would never be able to defend himself before a Military Court by saying 'this noble "requested" me to do that'.

According to GT:Nobles, all fleet admirals are at least knights and all sector admirals are at least barons. But they're admirals because they were promoted to admiral. Their status as noble or non-noble may have influenced their promotion, but any non-noble who is promoted to fleet admiral will get a knighthood or a baronetcy; a barony if he becomes a sector admiral.

True, the fact of Big Brass being all nobles does not mean only nobles can reach Big Brass. A 'commoner' can reach it (although less likely), and the fact he's not noble would be arranged soon (from here de +2 Soc on mustering table for high rank Navy officiers).

In the FFW boardgame, Norris' counter function as the most senior of the 'one-star' admirals (presumably one-stars are fleet admirals since one of the two-stars is Sector Admiral Santanocheev). Since Norris resigned his commision and left the Imperial Navy (with the rank of commander) when he became duke, his ability to give orders to other one-star admirals is presumably ex officio as a subsector duke. Note that the boardgame shows that he is unable to give orders to two-stars; the background material shows that he can't even countermand Santanocheev's ban on visiting interdicted worlds, even in his very own duchy.

I've always thought Norris kept a reserve status (with commisions promptly arriving mostly because his civil status) and was reserve aldmiral at the start of the war (and off course CiC of the Regina Planetary Navy). If so, at the declaration of Martial Law, he is reactivated from reserve with a high rank enough to take the command of the 1st fleet.

This is my how I've always seen it, but I have no hard proof in cannon to support it. Just makes me more sense than seing him, just as a noble (albeit a high one) to override teh IN Chain of Command, and the local Aldmiral bowing to that.

Ther boardgame also implies that admirals take orders from more senior admirals, chain of command or no chain of command. How much of a game artifact this is is an open question. At the very least I'd assume that Admiral Medium Seniority won't countermand any orders Admiral Senior has issued to Admiral Junior without a very good reason.

Hans

AFAIK (I repeat I'm not in the military), when military units are out of communications to higher command, the seniorest officier takes command and a loal Chain of Command is organized.

In TU, due to the delay in communications, this is the usual state of affairs, and so I think is quite logical any Aldmiral accepts orders form a Senior Aldmiral, if not totally contadictory with his own orders (or those given to him by an even Seniorest Aldmiral).

I also believe 3I (and for what is worth, Zho' and Solomani too) gives quite a lot of freedom of action and initative to any Aldmiral, as the impossibility to give them immediate last hour orders gives no option but to trust your Man in Spot.

 

[rancke]

Yes, and that holds very well in the Imperium. Like old sailing ships, J2 traders can travel a long way in search of cargo. The traditional merchant adventure has PC's travelling such long distances on errands for patrons. But that is not the norm for interstellar trade.

How do you know what is the norm for interstellar trade?

According to FT, the BTN for Muan Gwi and Mora is 7 (rounded down to 6.5)+6.5 minus the distance modifier if 4.5 (Muan Gwi to Capital is 120 parsecs and Capital to Mora is 131 parsecs) or 9. That works out as between 50,000 and 100,000 dT of goods per year. Not a lot, but still not exactly nothing. And you can bet it's all going to be high-end luxury goods.

Very few. Triple the transport cost and as a business you will start looking at building the goods locally, utilizing local raw materials and hiring local cheap labour.

You can't grow genuine Terran foodstuff anywhere but on Terra (well, you can, but you get busted for fraud if you're found out). Come to that, you can't manufacture genuine Terran goods anywhere but Terra either. Why do you think the British didn't just grow their own tea at home? And paid more for Ming china than for Sheffield?

Then you have to ask, whether there is enough consistent, paying business to justify a J6 ship. Between two High Pop Industrialised worlds J6 apart? Perhaps. Between a High Pop Industrialized world and the rest of the sub-sector? I doubt it.

Rhylanor to Mora has a BTN of 10 (6+6-2). That's between 1 and 5 million dT per year. If only one part in a thousand of that is time-critical, you can keep a 100dT payload J6 ship occupied hauling that all year long. And that's before we take a look at the passenger traffic.

Information doesn't have to come from Terra to Mora in one go to get from Terra to Mora. It can go from Terra to Muan Gwi and from Muan Gwi to Capital and from Capital to Vland and from Vland to Deneb and from Deneb to Mora. You don't need ANY goods of passengers travelling from Terra to Mora. But if you have any at all, the information comes along automatically.

Many of whom, will own shares in a yacht that suits their holiday & business needs, similar to several executive jet businesses today. It'll cost more again and is unlikely to be J6, but it keeps them away from the rif-raf, tedious customs ques and carries the Silver Cloud Grav-Rolls Royce as well.

That's some of whom. There are going to be a section of the millionaire classes that can afford to pay triple costs to get to the neighboring subsector but can't afford a part share in a yacht.

Others will look up a Han Solo in a dingy bar with a J6 dunger looking for a patron and prepared to "customize" the trip experience to the patrons needs.

What's a J6 dunger?

I guess I'm saying that for your target market, they have the credits to have a LOT of options. And speed of travel is only one criteria they will look at.

The target market is the people who can afford J6 rates to travel every couple of years but can't afford to have a part share in a yacht all year long.

Thats a very big, very consistent and very profitable niche, required to justify the costs of a J6 information conduit from Core to Mora. I doubt it exists and if it does, it would definitely no longer be a niche.

I'm not talking about information itself being a niche market (although I could make an argument for that). I'm talking about other niche markets, goods or passengers, that the information trade can piggyback on. All it takes is one.


Hans