Imperial Crust Defence or Defence in Depth

[rancke]

True about the Scout vs courrier matter. It's because of that I said courriers would only be used in high thread areas.

Fleet Couriers are eight (and a half) times as expensive as Type S Scouts, true, but their cost is still a drop in the ocean when you consider the total IN budget. You can get 1400 Fleet Couriers for the price of one Tigress. Communication is so vital to the conduct of naval operations that I can't imagine the IN not having plenty of jump-6 couriers.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Most of what is canon is laid down during the CT years.

Except for the substantial part of canon that has been published since 1986.


Hans

 

[Dulinor]

I can't even remember where the real reference to Regina as the capital of the Marches is. I think it's one of the MT maps, but I could be misremembering. I know there is one somewhere.

I first read it (and disagreed with it ) in JTAS # 9, on page 6, third TNS entry.
(interstingly enough, the first sentence on the page tells of Regina as "the subsector capital")

 

[rancke]

I first read it (and disagreed with it ) in JTAS # 9, on page 6, third TNS entry.
(interstingly enough, the first sentence on the page tells of Regina as "the subsector capital")

I must confess that I'd forgotten about that one. But a TNS newsbrief is in-game writing. It's proof that a TNS newswriter referred to Regina as the capital of the Spinward Marches in one of his newsbriefs. It's not proof that what he wrote is correct[*]. Usually we accept the information we get from the newsbriefs as gospel, but that's really quite naive of us. Whenever I read an article about something I know about personally, there's usually an average of three blatant mistakes in it .

[*] The bit about Regina having been invaded, much less fallen, is demonstrably wrong.​

No, that one doesn't impress me. But I'm pretty sure there's also an authorial voice reference to Regina being the capital of the Marches somewhere. As I said, possibly one of the MT maps.


Hans


PS. Welcome to the forums.

 

[Dulinor]

I wassn't trying to convince you... I simply provided the oldest (AFAIK) reference to this error in an official product, from which of all the other may descend.

 

[rancke]

I wassn't trying to convince you... I simply provided the oldest (AFAIK) reference to this error in an official product, from which of all the other may descend.

And thank you for it.


Hans

 

[Madarin Dude]

Fleet Couriers are eight (and a half) times as expensive as Type S Scouts, true, but their cost is still a drop in the ocean when you consider the total IN budget. You can get 1400 Fleet Couriers for the price of one Tigress. Communication is so vital to the conduct of naval operations that I can't imagine the IN not having plenty of jump-6 couriers.


Hans

I would think that the backbone of a network to reach important places should be fleet couriers but to get to backwater or less travelled pats of the imperium the scout would do fine.

 

[Matt123]

I'm inclined to agree with Hans. Most attacking fleets will move at J3. Having a J6 boarder network will get you the information in half the time it takes that fleet to get to you.

Worse, a J2 boarder network will let you know about the J3 invasion only after it has arrived...

Of course that also ignores that the J2 Scout typically belongs to the Scout Service. I would think boarder watch is not generally considered part of the Scout Services role, in part at least because J2 scouts are not up to the task.

The Naval J6 vessels of varying designs, will generally have one of three roles, each involving the fast transmission of people and information on behalf of the Imperium. (This is opinion, not based on canon.)

1. A J6 courier route between every Sector Capital and Sector Depot, and a J6 route back to Core.
2. A tripwire screening force on each major boarder where a major invasion fleet may appear. (Zhodani, Solomani for example, not Aslan or Vargr).
3. 2 or 3 squadrons for use by Sector Fleet Admirals as they see fit. Generally parceled out to major fleets to keep the Sector Admiral informed of Fleet activities.

 

[rancke]

I would think that the backbone of a network to reach important places should be fleet couriers but to get to backwater or less travelled pats of the imperium the scout would do fine.

There's probably never going to be enough couriers around to perform all the tasks an admiral would like them to perform. So sometimes it may be necessary to use J3 couriers to do the work you'd prefer to use J6 couriers for and accept the loss of time. But that would be a matter of prioritizing. Couriers from tripwire pickets would have the performance they'd need to fulfil their function.

And, of course, there's no need to waste a J6 courier on a J2 link.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Of course that also ignores that the J2 Scout typically belongs to the Scout Service. I would think boarder watch is not generally considered part of the Scout Services role, in part at least because J2 scouts are not up to the task.

That doesn't mean the Navy won't have some J2 ships of its own. The IN canonically have ships of TLs from 10 to 15, so it will have ships all the way down to J1.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Spinaward Marches Sector Capital

Re the Sector Capital of the Marches if anyone is still looking for data...

Spinward Marches Campaign (c 1985) lists Mora as the Sector Capital.

I vaguely recall something about Norris making Regina the Sector Capital when he is name Duke of the Domain, but I don't recall where that was published (if it was and I'm actually recalling it).

 

[rancke]

Re the Sector Capital of the Marches if anyone is still looking for data...

Spinward Marches Campaign (c 1985) lists Mora as the Sector Capital.

And there are plenty of other references to the same.

I vaguely recall something about Norris making Regina the Sector Capital when he is name Duke of the Domain, but I don't recall where that was published (if it was and I'm actually recalling it).

As I recall it (still haven't gotten around to checking, so no guarantees), there's an MT map that lists Regina as the capital of the Marches. The fanon explanation is that when Norris became Archduke, his ducal capital automatically became the sector capital too, superceding Mora. However, there are later references to Norris establishing his domain capital at Mora and Mora still (or, arguably, again) the sector capital.

Be that as it may, Norris didn't become archduke until well into the Rebellion, so Mora is definitely the sector capital in the Classic Era.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

I would think that the backbone of a network to reach important places should be fleet couriers but to get to backwater or less travelled pats of the imperium the scout would do fine.

I'm inclined to agree with Hans. Most attacking fleets will move at J3. Having a J6 boarder network will get you the information in half the time it takes that fleet to get to you.

Well, as I know canon, the backbone of a network to reach important places (at least as to general population matters) is the Xboat network, with less travelled and out of the way system being information fed by traders (I gess mostly by subsided traders/lineers, as they need regular service for the mail and news).

For official/naval information/messages, that's another matter. The TJ J6 trader takes this role for official information/courriers, and I've always believed there are small (200-400 dton) J6 naval courriers for the IN. (There was an adventure in a Challenge, (sorry, I don't remeber which one now) where a 200 dton J6 courrier (MT design) was presented, IIRC).

Of course that also ignores that the J2 Scout typically belongs to the Scout Service. I would think boarder watch is not generally considered part of the Scout Services role, in part at least because J2 scouts are not up to the task.

Except in war/emergency time, where scouts fall under Navy command...

The Naval J6 vessels of varying designs, will generally have one of three roles, each involving the fast transmission of people and information on behalf of the Imperium. (This is opinion, not based on canon.)

1. A J6 courier route between every Sector Capital and Sector Depot, and a J6 route back to Core.
2. A tripwire screening force on each major boarder where a major invasion fleet may appear. (Zhodani, Solomani for example, not Aslan or Vargr).
3. 2 or 3 squadrons for use by Sector Fleet Admirals as they see fit. Generally parceled out to major fleets to keep the Sector Admiral informed of Fleet activities.

I think canon (Rebelion Sourcebook, MT) puts your 1st mission on the TJ neetwork, more than on the naval courriers. Of course is perfectly believable the navy wants to keep their own channels feed by IN courriers.

I fully agree about your second point (talked about that above).

About your third mission, I guess not only Sector fleet Aldmirals have them, but most fleets (and even squadrons acting independenlty) would have some naval courriers attached. They not only keep them in communication with other fleet elements (forwarding any unexpected move to their HQs, but they can be used as scouts, sending them up to 3 parsecs away with half of its jump fuel (argeable in MT rules, but taht's another discussion), or farther using drop tanks to scout and with orders of never engaging, just scan and inform (talked about that on a post above)

 

[McPerth]

Be that as it may, Norris didn't become archduke until well into the Rebellion, so Mora is definitely the sector capital in the Classic Era.

Norris doesn't become Archducke 'de leggio' unti confirmation of that arrives to him with te return of 'Arrival Vengeance', well 10 years after he is acting as 'de facto' Archduke.

Even so, he keeps Mora as sector capital (IIRC), and makes it Domain capital too, due to its central position.

May be some time in between Regina is seen as sector capital, as it's the Archduke's system, but I don't believe he has time (not intention, as there are quite higher priorities) to move all the boureaucracy, as he should have to if officially changed the sector capital.

 

[rancke]

Well, as I know canon, the backbone of a network to reach important places (at least as to general population matters) is the Xboat network, with less travelled and out of the way system being information fed by traders (I gess mostly by subsided traders/lineers, as they need regular service for the mail and news).

It's canon, all right, but it's utterly broken canon. It simply doesn't make sense for the X-boat network to be the primary carrier of information in the Imperium and still remain at J4 maximum. The explanation that I've come up with is that the IN kept the J5 drive secret as long as it could, back when it was invented. Consequently its J5 couriers outperformed the X-boats for a generation or so, and the Imperial Bureaucracy got into the habit of sending so-called duplicates of its correspondance by "NavyNet". So when the J5 drive was finally declassified, there was no incentive to upgrade the X-boats, and they essentially turned into a huge boondoggle. Exactly the same happened with the J6 drive.

So the X-boats are still touted as the marvel they were 400 years ago (often using the same texts used 400 years ago), but in reality they're the back-up system, not the primary (and not a very good back-up system either; the (hypothesized) J6 passenger liners between sector capitals and other high-population worlds will outperform the X-boats over any distance greater than 12 parsecs...).

For official/naval information/messages, that's another matter. The TJ J6 trader takes this role for official information/courriers, and I've always believed there are small (200-400 dton) J6 naval courriers for the IN. (There was an adventure in a Challenge, (sorry, I don't remeber which one now) where a 200 dton J6 courrier (MT design) was presented, IIRC).

The J6 Fleet Courier is canonical; it is described in Fighting Ships. 400T, costs MCr255.

J5 couriers are mentioned as part of Oberlindes Lines fleet. That's J5 drives canonically shown to be in civilian hands.


Hans

 

[Matt123]

That doesn't mean the Navy won't have some J2 ships of its own. The IN canonically have ships of TLs from 10 to 15, so it will have ships all the way down to J1.


Hans

Absolutely, I'm just pointing out first that Scout ships are unlikely to be used, secondly that J2 ships are not up to this particular job.

 

[McPerth]

It's canon, all right, but it's utterly broken canon. It simply doesn't make sense for the X-boat network to be the primary carrier of information in the Imperium and still remain at J4 maximum. The explanation that I've come up with is that the IN kept the J5 drive secret as long as it could, back when it was invented. Consequently its J5 couriers outperformed the X-boats for a generation or so, and the Imperial Bureaucracy got into the habit of sending so-called duplicates of its correspondance by "NavyNet". So when the J5 drive was finally declassified, there was no incentive to upgrade the X-boats, and they essentially turned into a huge boondoggle. Exactly the same happened with the J6 drive.

So the X-boats are still touted as the marvel they were 400 years ago (often using the same texts used 400 years ago), but in reality they're the back-up system, not the primary (and not a very good back-up system either; the (hypothesized) J6 passenger liners between sector capitals and other high-population worlds will outperform the X-boats over any distance greater than 12 parsecs...).

And that's why I said 'as to general population matters'. Of course many people would have access to J5 speed news and some to J6. EDIT: I guess Xboat is still the official release network, and anything known before should be considereed a 'rumor' (though it can come from a very reliable source).END EDIT

I guess the farther you go from the source of the message, the less the information relies on J4 Xboats, as the time lapse between first notice (J6) and official release (Xboat) grows and the leacks are more likely.

In fact, the /hypothesized) J6 pasenger liners outperform Xboat in any distance except 4- and 7-8 parsecs.

 

[rancke]

In fact, the hypothesized J6 pasenger liners outperform Xboat in any distance except 4- and 7-8 parsecs.

If they're assumed to jump every six hours, yes. Otherwise there are some built-in delays that the X-boats don't have, e.g. waiting until the next liner departs. But once the liner only has to do two jumps while the X-boat has to make three, I think it's safe to assume the liner will outdistance the X-boats.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

If they're assumed to jump every six hours, yes. Otherwise there are some built-in delays that the X-boats don't have, e.g. waiting until the next liner departs. But once the liner only has to do two jumps while the X-boat has to make three, I think it's safe to assume the liner will outdistance the X-boats.


Hans

And when only one jump has to be made and the Xboats need two (5-6 parsecs) too.

 

[AndreaV]

It's canon, all right, but it's utterly broken canon. It simply doesn't make sense for the X-boat network to be the primary carrier of information in the Imperium and still remain at J4 maximum.

Actually its not quite canon. The X-Boat network is the primary carrier of *public* information, the Imperium (and presumably the major commercial organisations) quietly maintain a discreet J6 network for their primary communications and actively discourage the establishment of any open J6 network (presumably very actively) in order to retain a substantial communication advantage over public news.