Imperial Marine and Imperial Army capabilities

[jec10]

Current Brigade Combat Team (BCT) structures in the US Army have 2 or 3 maneuver battalions (armor/mech mix or pure infantry), 1 recon battalion (heavy or light model), 1 artillery battalion, a support battalion, and special troops battalion. A Division can have one or more BCTs of any type attached as the structure is modular - no more reliance on a DIVARTY, DIVENG, or DISCOM for support as those "slices" are now resident within the BCT.

Yeah, but the backlash against the 'modular' design has apparently already begun, with engineers and cavalry for instance demanding a return to their own units.
If you want a wacky organisation for your Traveller military go with the Pentomic division from the US, or the British Field Force concept from the 1970s or a French "division" (essentially a reinforced brigade).
I have experimented with the "Lancer" combat vehicle concept introduced in MT - this is a large, well-protected grav sled that carries a half-platoon/section of up to 24 troops, and has the firepower of a battle tank. Two of these babies make up a platoon, with the 40-50 troops able to dismount as required. A company is seven Lancers (like the old Soviet heavy tank companies) and a battalion of 22. For units that need to deploy across interstellar distances in the holds of transports the saving in dT can be significant over a traditional tank/lift inf task force with Trepida/Astrin equivalents. Generally in CT/Striker or TNE FFS1 bigger is better, so the Lancer is not the disaster that the MT design system reduced it to - MT you will recall is fundamentally flawed for ground/grav combat vehicle design because you create what are in essence armoured boxes (there being no slope effects or differing armour for differing faces, part of the sacrifice to get a simple system that melded ground and space vehicle design) and hence you cannot put decent frontal armour on a vehicle without creating a behemoth that costs a small fortune. MT combat vehicles exist in a universe where everyone has a main gun far more powerful than any armour protection they can fit. I can't think of a main battle tank produced in the last fifty years that did not at least come close to being protected against its own main armament - but in MT it is the norm that your main gun has fifty-percent or more excess penetration.

 

[Major B]

I'm no great fan of the current BCT structure, especially the Infantry and Heavy BCTs that have only two maneuver battalions. In Iraq I've seen it become the norm to use the recon and artillery battalions as maneuver elements which violates the purpose for having these units integrated into the BCT.

Our current structure also bears some resemblance to the Pentomic division, but following that trail would take me far off the subject...

I also agree with the problems in MT vehicle design. I'd rather see something like the Striker system where you could assign better armor values for front and sides and lighter armor for the deck and rear, for instance.

I'd be interested to see the Lancer specifications. I'm following a different concept as a force design now. Scott Martin has posted some of the early versions of the MT vehicle prototypes for me. I've updated them since, but haven't been able to get the updates to Scott yet. They are at ScottMartin.ca if you want to take a look - Click on the "Other People's Stuff" link.

 

[Renaissance Man]

You guys just popped into another language here so forgive me if I sound out of my element I'm going to have to be vague, and I might even contradict myself from earlier posts since my thinking continues to evolve on these boards.

As far as I can tell, there are two factors which will affect the Imperial Army's and Marine's operational structure.

1) We have an Imperial armed forces with a possible maximum operational force of what... a couple hundred million? More? It seems like a massive unified force, and in some ways it is, but any way you cut it - whether there is or isn't an "official" IA IYTU - these troops are going to be scattered across hundreds of parsecs.

There are, at any given moment doing tens of thousands of missions, ranging from garrison duty, police and peacekeeping, standby intervention, disaster relief, training, counter-insurgency, assault, etc. etc. etc. That means self-sufficiency is going to be a huge deal. Unlike the present-day U.S. military, we cannot have a situation where overwhelming firepower is backed up by overwhelming logistics.

2) The Imperial Armed forces are operating in an extremely technologically rich universe. Added to that is the fact that manpower is comparatively thin and precious. So much of the duties of fighting men will be in acting as command and control for technology (e.g. robots, drones, vehicles, ortillery/artillery, satellites, mines, surveillance, communications.) Ideally guys and girls with guns will be behind layers and layers of tech for both protection and effectiveness, until direct contact with the business end of the mission is necessary (as it always is when dealing with politically sensitive missions.) This goes double for the Marines.

If you want a model for the organizational structure of the IA and IM, try the 19th century colonial British model, but then add modifications for TL.

My gut feeling? Brigades are going to be more integrated (engineers, etc. rolled in,) with a trend towards generalization rather than specialization. And smaller in order to avoid easy detection and destruction by advanced weapons. Sort of like a special-forces lite mentality. With at least two weeks before the next reinforcements, the skill-sets of your soldiers has to be pretty broad and robust in order to absorb losses with the minimum degradation of effectiveness.

 

[jec10]

I'm no great fan of the current BCT structure, especially the Infantry and Heavy BCTs that have only two maneuver battalions. In Iraq I've seen it become the norm to use the recon and artillery battalions as maneuver elements which violates the purpose for having these units integrated into the BCT.

Our current structure also bears some resemblance to the Pentomic division, but following that trail would take me far off the subject...

I also agree with the problems in MT vehicle design. I'd rather see something like the Striker system where you could assign better armor values for front and sides and lighter armor for the deck and rear, for instance.

I'd be interested to see the Lancer specifications. I'm following a different concept as a force design now. Scott Martin has posted some of the early versions of the MT vehicle prototypes for me. I've updated them since, but haven't been able to get the updates to Scott yet. They are at ScottMartin.ca if you want to take a look - Click on the "Other People's Stuff" link.

The designs look interesting. I guess the cavalry vehicles aren't intended to combat enemy vehicles. Their armament suggests they are not going to look to get in a fight with anything serious at TL14-15. They aren't going to fight for their information, but rely on speed/stealth/sensors and their decent armour protection presumably.

Here is my take at a Lancer using CT/Striker:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=247383
lots of other designs on this thread by various people.

 

[Major B]

Going toe-to-toe with TL14-15 enemies is a bad idea, but with 68G armor the CCV has little to fear from anything less advanced than a FY or FZ gun system. For the high TL enemy the tactics are: use the sensor suite to identify targets, engage with indirect fire from behind masking terrain whenever possible (the mass driver on the M133 is for this purpose) and use fire support from fighters, orbit, or ground based platforms to even the odds. If all else fails, try to spread the enemy out then mass your M135s agains smaller enemy elements to limit exposure and ensure you kill him before he can do too much damage to you.

There are some errors on the worksheets that I've corrected now. I'll re-post a link here when Scott has the new stuff posted (that means I need to get him the new sheets).

I have a bunch of light vehicles that follow the same layout as the Jerboa to post too.

 

[jec10]

If you want a model for the organizational structure of the IA and IM, try the 19th century colonial British model, but then add modifications for TL.

I've thought a bit about this one. The Victorian British Army certainly had features that might apply in the Traveller universe. Because it was not engaged in major power war, officers served all over the world in the course of their careers with garrison service at home interspersed with 'affairs in distant lands' or command of colonial troops. Victorian regiments ended up having to have two battalions, one of which was at home while the other deployed into the Empire. Each battalion had an establishment of between 800 and 1000 officiers and men, initially divided up between 'service' and 'depot' companies (until 1881 when the depot companies were done away with as the system of home and away battalions was standardised, leaving eight fighting companies).
For a long time, commissions could be purchased, although you could also be commissioned from the ranks for meritious service. Officers could leave the service by selling their commission at any time. On promotion an officer sold his original commission. Social standing played a big role.
Although many say the Victorian Army was eliminated in Flanders, in fact its demise began after the 'Black week' against the Boers when three successive defeats led to wholesale reform, and the recruitment of volunteers who joined only 'for the duration' to fill out the ranks of the long service professionals of the Victorian Army.

 

[mbrinkhues]

I remember "800 fighting Irishman, the Colonel and the Band" or something like this was a description I heard about Victorian era British units

In my "Dark" OTU the Imperial Marines are basically the "Waffen-SS" of the Emperor and Archdukes/Dukes, used to strong-arm reluctant planets into agreements that benefit the high nobility. You either do as ordered or you are declared a "rebellious planet" and the Marines with their (TNE-canon) nuke-heave TO&E get send in to "clear the problem zones". If you are lucky it's only a "commando raid against Ine Givar terrorists" taking out your spouse and children. If you don't get that hint...

Marines act as ships troops only on the larger ships. And there they pull duty quite similar to that of Royal Marines, preventing mutinees from happening and protecting the (often noble) captain/admiral from the crew.

The Marines also pull bodyguard/palace guard duty and are heavily involved in the politics of the palace and 3I.

If real work needs to be done the overworked and underfunded Imperial Army gathers forces from the next 5-10 nearby worlds, hopes that all actually HAVE the numbers and equipment they claim to have and prays that most are professionals and not conscripts drafted by the worlds Baron as part of his dues to the next higher noble and then throws it into battle.

 

[boomslang]

In my "Dark" OTU the Imperial Marines are basically the "Waffen-SS" of the Emperor and Archdukes/Dukes, used to strong-arm reluctant planets into agreements that benefit the high nobility. You either do as ordered or you are declared a "rebellious planet" and the Marines with their (TNE-canon) nuke-heave TO&E get send in to "clear the problem zones". If you are lucky it's only a "commando raid against Ine Givar terrorists" taking out your spouse and children. If you don't get that hint...

This pretty much sums up my OTU, as well.

I'm just sayin'...

:devil:

 

[sfchbryan]

This pretty much sums up my OTU, as well.

I'm just sayin'...

:devil:

Not IMTU. They are't that important. Marines are used as ship's troops and occasional first responders. No Ortillery, No Armor, No Respect.

Of course that might be because I am a 25 year veteran of the Army.

heheheheheh.......

 

[Uncle Bob]

IMTU the Marines are subserbvient to the Fleet. The bulk are ship's troops, but some ships have a full company. A task force can be accompanied by a battalion in a LSD, but larger units are on paper only.

I never thought of them as a "praetorian guard", your milage may vary.

In my CT universe the Marines don't have "Striker" vehicles, but use Book 5 assault boats. I also have a non-canon seven man squad (SL and three two-man buddy teams).

 

[jec10]

IMTU the Marines are subserbvient to the Fleet. The bulk are ship's troops, but some ships have a full company. A task force can be accompanied by a battalion in a LSD, but larger units are on paper only.

I never thought of them as a "praetorian guard", your milage may vary.

In my CT universe the Marines don't have "Striker" vehicles, but use Book 5 assault boats. I also have a non-canon seven man squad (SL and three two-man buddy teams).

Not sure what Book 5 'assault boat' you are meaning (a homebuilt High Guard design? the assault boat from Supplement 9?), but if you are depositing the Marines as infantry onto the planetary surface then I'd raise the same objections as to Aramis' footsoldier-heavy force. Actual experience with Traveller miniatures rules shows that foot infantry (even in battledress) are easy and cheap to counter with autocannon/rapid pulse lasers/VRF Gauss Guns if they have to take the offensive and can't just skulk around in cover waiting to ambush somebody from concealment.

The other problem with the 'assault boat' concept in the CT universe is that, until they fixed it in MT, the costs for an equivalent grav vehicle assault craft are significantly cheaper than a High Guard design. You had better be sure you are going to do a lot of interplanetary in-system travel in those assault boats to justify their extra expense over grav craft that would get your Marines from orbit to planetary surface just fine.

 

[mbrinkhues]

IMTU the Marines are subserbvient to the Fleet. The bulk are ship's troops, but some ships have a full company. A task force can be accompanied by a battalion in a LSD, but larger units are on paper only.

I never thought of them as a "praetorian guard", your milage may vary.

In my CT universe the Marines don't have "Striker" vehicles, but use Book 5 assault boats. I also have a non-canon seven man squad (SL and three two-man buddy teams).

Actually in the OTU the Impie is guarded by a number of Marine units in regular rotation so they do the original "Pratorian Guard" job (Guarding the capital/government). In the "positive" OTU they definitly don't do the mid/late roman empire style Praetorian Guard job.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Not sure what Book 5 'assault boat' you are meaning (a homebuilt High Guard design? the assault boat from Supplement 9?), but if you are depositing the Marines as infantry onto the planetary surface then I'd raise the same objections as to Aramis' footsoldier-heavy force. Actual experience with Traveller miniatures rules shows that foot infantry (even in battledress) are easy and cheap to counter with autocannon/rapid pulse lasers/VRF Gauss Guns if they have to take the offensive and can't just skulk around in cover waiting to ambush somebody from concealment.

The other problem with the 'assault boat' concept in the CT universe is that, until they fixed it in MT, the costs for an equivalent grav vehicle assault craft are significantly cheaper than a High Guard design. You had better be sure you are going to do a lot of interplanetary in-system travel in those assault boats to justify their extra expense over grav craft that would get your Marines from orbit to planetary surface just fine.

Yeah, a custom book 5 design. With support weapons to suppress/kill crew served weapons. I figured the added cost was worth the agility/short time to/from orbit, also since the Marines did space-to-space boarding actions . I also had "gunboats", essentially armored fighters to give close support with ship-class fusion guns.

 

[Major B]

I've finally built a website to start posting some of the stuff I've been working on. I still have lots to do, but I have linked six light vehicle designs (3 point defense and 3 indirect fire), the two Cavalry heavy vehicles, and the heavy recon vehicle.

Go here then click on the vehicle design link. Each vehicle is linked to its description header. Once load the icons they will be linked too.

 

[jec10]

Awesome!

Major B, how do you get your spreadsheets outputted as pdf files?

 

[Major B]

Its a freeware application called PDF995. It works like a mock printer - just print to it and enter the desired file name when prompted.

Works much better than a scanner and produces searchable text as if you had an OCR scan.

 

[Gray Lensman]

13.5 Years Army Myself

IMTU I have Marines as ship's troops and as naval security both aboard and aground.

Smaller ships have Ships Troops (from platoon to company strength) with thier own Armed/Armored Landers.

A Squad is: SGT MRN CPL MRN CPL MRN with a CPL MRN as Cdr/Gnr and Dvr of the grav (re-entry capable) AFV.

A Platoon has two Squads and A Grav Tank with an MLT SGT CPL has crew.

Two Platoons and an AFV with A CPT MLT SGT CPL and a 20 ton supply/evac lander with a SGT & CPL make up a Company.

I also have Marine Commando Companies (min rank is CPL) and Drop Battalions/Regiments (for which I have never really done a TO&E) for planetary Door Kickers.

My Marines get all Fire Support/Medical/Supply/Ect from the Navy.

My Army is rather large, has all the bells and whistles, and relies on the Navy only for Transport from world to world.

 

[Ran Targas]

IMTU, the Imperial Marines are the heavy hitters with the Imperial Army being more of an occupying force.

The IM has legions of specially selected and trained commandos, mounted infantry, tanks, and artillery; all stowed carefully aboard Imperial Navy transports enroute to trouble spots throughout the Empire. These are the top of the line troops, ultimately loyal only to the Emperor through his military commanders.

The Imperial Army IMTU is more like the National Guard. Maintaining the local IA regiments is the direct responsibility of the planetary and sub-sector governors. Really, these units are just a source of warm bodies; when the IM needs reinforcement in depth, the IN starlifts IA troopers to the battlezone and equips them from pre-position store ships.

This isn't the way it has always been IMTU; the Emperor is consolidating his power and surplanting the aristocracy with hand picked sector and sub-sector governors. He purposely reduced the capability of the IA to prevent its use against him and now, the IA is only a shadow of what it once was.

As for mercenaries, most legions have been forcibly disbanded and their equipment commandeered. Those who survived were made to bow to the Emperor's will and operate at his pleasure.

 

[jec10]

Its a freeware application called PDF995. It works like a mock printer - just print to it and enter the desired file name when prompted.

Works much better than a scanner and produces searchable text as if you had an OCR scan.

Thanks very much for this. I have now started my own page, see my sig below...

My recon vehicle takes advantage of the collapsing round rules in CT/Striker to produce a light/cheap vehicle that can (with luck) take out the best protected grav tank/gunship.

The Z-80 is my interpretation of the MT design from 101 Vehicles.

 

[Major B]

Very nice.

I need to redesign my UCP page - take out some of the extraneous stuff I put in there and make it a better play aid along the lines you followed. Something to work on later when work interferes less with what I really want to be doing.

I'd love to be able to incorporate some artwork like you did using the image from 101 vehicles. I've tried some deck plans but nothing more ambitious yet.